MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #17

[Lovejac]

Great! Thanks again!

I could not remember the exact words "swell up" as I pictured in my mind "blow up" like a balloon who gets bigger and bigger. It would be interesting to see how it looked like when MB got mad and did this.

BBM

We can just ask Officer Wilson. He knows exactly what it looks like, up close and personal.

 

[Lovejac]

David Carson ‏@PDPJ 1h In earlier tweet I mentioned protester mooning cops, didn't know I'd shot it but here it is. #Ferguson #MikeBrown pic.twitter.com/xLqoEUqKVb


Julie Bosman ‏@juliebosman 5h Downpour. Protest is dispersing. #Ferguson pic.twitter.com/bP1SxUjUt5

That's some classy stuff right there. :giggle:

 

[Lovejac]

I cannot BELIEVE people are taking babies and small children to a protest where there are bricks and bottles being thrown!!!!

Got to indoctrinate them as early as possible.

 

[sonjay]

That's some classy stuff right there. :giggle:

MLK would be so proud!

 

[Lovejac]

That's what they were calling them on IG underneath their photo and name.

Yep. I've been reading those kind of comments whenever there is a picture posted with an AA police officer.

Nice, huh :gaah:

 

[SStarr33]

I've been trying to make sense of the construction guys' descriptions of what they saw. Trying to correlate their reports with those of other witnesses and what we know from other evidence.

Fox2Now interviewed one of them - I'll call him CW1 - he's apparently the one who swore and spoke with MB earlier.

CW1 - Swearing/Religious CW - interviewed by Fox2Now
http://fox2now.com/2014/09/08/two-j...tion-workers-describe-michael-brown-shooting/

Kohler said the worker described a shot fired while Brown was running away.

The worker said Brown was “…kind of walking back toward the cop,” his “hands were still up” and the witness described Officer Wilson “backing up as he fired.”

The eyewitness who spoke to Fox 2 described hearing two pops, then looked up to see Brown.

“I saw him staggering and running and when he finally caught himself he threw his hands up and started screaming OK OK OK OK OK and then the three officers come through the thing and the one just started shooting,” the worker told Fox 2

The Fox 2 witness immediately wrote down what he saw. He also drew a diagram showing him and his co-worker about 50 yards away. He wrote that the officer “emptied his gun into the guy.”​

And CS2 was interviewed by the St. L. Post-Dispatch

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_14a3e5f8-6c6a-5deb-92fe-87fcee622c29.html

He said Brown struck up a rambling, half-hour conversation with his co-worker.

About a half-hour later, the worker heard a gunshot. Then he saw Brown running away from a police car. Wilson trailed about 10 to 15 feet behind, gun in hand. About 90 feet away from the car, the worker said, Wilson fired another shot at Brown, whose back was turned.

The worker said Brown stumbled and then stopped, put his hands up, turned around and said, “OK, OK, OK, OK, OK.” He said he told investigators from the St. Louis County police and the FBI that because of the stumble, it seemed to him that Brown had been wounded.

Wilson, gun drawn, also stopped about 10 feet in front of Brown, the worker said.

Then Brown moved, the worker said. “He’s kind of walking back toward the cop.” He said Brown’s hands were still up.

Wilson began backing up as he fired, the worker said.

After the third shot, Brown’s hands started going down, and he moved about 25 feet toward Wilson, who kept backing away and firing. The worker said he could not tell from where he watched — about 50 feet away — if Brown’s motion toward Wilson after the shots was “a stumble to the ground” or “OK, I’m going to get you, you’re already shooting me.”​

CNN, in their inimitable fashion, quote both the CWs but don't clearly distinguish which one is which:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/10/us/ferguson-michael-brown-shooting-witnesses/index.html

The man told CNN he heard one gunshot, then another shot about 30 seconds later.

"The cop didn't say get on the ground. He just kept shooting," the man said.

That same witness described the gruesome scene, saying he saw Brown's "brains come out of his head," again stating, "his hands were up."

The video shows the man raising his arms in the air -- just as, he says, Brown was doing when he was shot.

The other contractor told CNN he saw Brown running away from a police car.

Brown "put his hands up," the construction worker said, and "the officer was chasing him."

The contractor says he saw Wilson fire a shot at Brown while his back was turned.

The men said they didn't seen how the confrontation started.​

How far away were they? According to Fox2Now, CW1 "immediately wrote down what he saw. He also drew a diagram showing him and his co-worker about 50 yards away." But it's being widely reported that they were 50 feet away.

The difference between 50 feet and 50 yards is... well... 100 feet. That's a pretty big difference insofar as what they'd have been able to see and hear.

What exactly did they see?

On MB running away:

CW1 says “I saw him staggering and running"
CW2 says he saw Brown running away from a police car.
One of the CWs told CNN, Brown "put his hands up," the construction worker said, and "the officer was chasing him."

I'm trying to picture putting up my hands while being chased. I just can't visualize it.

On MB turning and moving back toward OW:

CW1 says Brown was “…kind of walking back toward the cop,” his “hands were still up” and the witness described Officer Wilson “backing up as he fired.”

CW2 says, Then Brown moved, the worker said. “He’s kind of walking back toward the cop.” He said Brown’s hands were still up. Wilson began backing up as he fired. After the third shot, Brown’s hands started going down, and he moved about 25 feet toward Wilson, who kept backing away and firing. The worker said he could not tell from where he watched — about 50 feet away — if Brown’s motion toward Wilson after the shots was “a stumble to the ground” or “OK, I’m going to get you, you’re already shooting me.”

My thoughts:

Whichever one claims to have seen "his brains come out of his head" is already suspect purely because of that. As far as I know, no brains came out of MB's head, and it's highly highly doubtful the CW could have seen that happen from where they were, if it did happen. But I'm not sure which one claims to have seen the brains.

CS1's statement that says he threw his hands up and started screaming OK OK OK OK OK and then the three officers come through the thing and the one just started shooting. That's also suspect. In his version, 3 officers were present before the final barrage of gunfire. We're pretty sure that's not the case.

Per CNN, one CW (I don't know which one) said that after the third shot Brown's hands started coming down. If that audio of the gunfire is authentic, I don't know how he could be that specific about the "third shot." I sure couldn't.

The CW seen on video holding his arms "up" -- I agree with the people describing that as more holding his arms "out." The CW's arm positions were not that of surrender, IMO. If that's an accurate representation of how MB was holding his arms, it's not indicative of surrendering.

Brady had said earlier that MB had his arms sort of hugging his abdomen, never saw MB's arms up and that if MB ever had his arms up that Brady missed seeing that part. CW guy says arms up/out. The overheard-guy on the Black Canseco recording made no mention of arms up or out. DJ, PC & TM all said "arms up."

Both CWs say that MB was moving back toward OW. One says "walking back toward the cop," the other CW says he moved about 25 feet toward OW and that it was either “a stumble to the ground” or “OK, I’m going to get you, you’re already shooting me.”

Even PC, in one of her interviews, admits that MB was moving back toward OW -- although in her version, it was only about a centimeter.

Both CWs say there was a shot fired while MB was fleeing. So do PC & TM, and DJ. I don't recall what Brady said, if anything, about that. The Black Canseco overheard-guy made no mention of any gunfire while MB was fleeing. Based on the audio of the gunfire, I can't figure out when this could have occurred. The shots were all in very quick succession, with only that one very brief pause after 6 rounds.


Obviously, these witness accounts can't all be right. DJ, PC & TM are so dubious that I have to disregard their statements altogether. That leaves Black Canseco overheard-guy, CWs 1 & 2, and Brady. Plus Josie's second-hand account -- which I tend to give credibility to because it revealed details that were later confirmed by physical evidence and additional witnesses.

What I'm left with is, after the assault at the car, and the gunshot there, it's certain that MB fled. OW may or may not have fired at least once while MB was fleeing. It's remotely possible (IMO) that a shot from behind may have grazed the inside of MB's arm, but I don't think so. At some point, MB realized he was being chased (and possibly shot at), and that he wasn't going to get away. MB turned around and began advancing toward OW. When MB turned around, he may have had his arms up or out, or down around his abdomen, or somewhere else altogether. As MB advanced toward OW, OW probably backed up, and he continued to fire until MB fell dead -- probably within just a few feet of OW.

That's enough for me. OW was legitimately in fear for his life at the time he fired the fatal shots. They can stop rioting and threatening now, and go on home.

Photos of what the worker wrote down:

http://easycaptures.com/fs/uploaded/850/5204371729.jpg

http://easycaptures.com/fs/uploaded/850/7839281754.jpg

 

[LambChop]

Do not link to political papers.

 

[sonjay]

Photos of what the worker wrote down:

http://easycaptures.com/fs/uploaded/850/5204371729.jpg

http://easycaptures.com/fs/uploaded/850/7839281754.jpg

Any idea who or where that photo came from?

Or why it sort-of appears to be written on 2 separate pages but sort-of not.... The first page ends with the words "I would say" at the very bottom of what appears to be a standard 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper, but the second page has the words "I would say" about halfway down, or a little more than halfway down, the sheet of paper.

Also, they appear to be photocopies. The way the top line is cut off at the top of the second page -- that's what a photocopy machine does.

Does anyone know if these photos are confirmed to be photos of what the CW actually wrote down?

Does anyone know if either of the CWs is a member of the Revolutionary Communist Progressive Labor Party? Or, if neither of them has anything to do with the CP, why would the CW's note be photographed lying on a car seat next to an issue of the CPs paper?

 

[SStarr33]

Do not link to political papers.

Even if it is evidence in the case?

 

[SStarr33]

Any idea who or where that photo came from?

Or why it sort-of appears to be written on 2 separate pages but sort-of not.... The first page ends with the words "I would say" at the very bottom of what appears to be a standard 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper, but the second page has the words "I would say" about halfway down, or a little more than halfway down, the sheet of paper.

Also, they appear to be photocopies. The way the top line is cut off at the top of the second page -- that's what a photocopy machine does.

Does anyone know if these photos are confirmed to be photos of what the CW actually wrote down?

Does anyone know if either of the CWs is a member of the Revolutionary Communist Progressive Labor Party? Or, if neither of them has anything to do with the CP, why would the CW's note be photographed lying on a car seat next to an issue of the CPs paper?

They came from the instagram account of the guy who posted the landscaper video.

 

[reedus23]

reedus, if this is a serious post, then I can understand why I'm having such trouble following this line of thinking. Extortion will never, IMO, improve any situation. MyBelle's post was all about extortion. This reply suggests our government was established based on extortion? Please ~ try to address the actual topic rather than derailing with red herrings. moo etc!

Meh. Extortion is her word. You can characterize my thoughts on the issue however you choose. She can use whatever word she wants to describe making demands of government. Really don't care. I just choose to want to live in a society where we can ask for change from our government with the hope that the people's voices will be heard. What I conceded and continue to concede is that the way in which those demands are related must be done in a way that is most likely to get results. Throwing bricks and bottles won't achieve that. Disrupting a government council meeting...I have no problem with that whatsoever if it is followed up with much more rationale discourse.

 

[LambChop]

Even if it is evidence in the case?

The picture is fine. The articles are political and belong downstairs in the private area. You can discuss the fact that the written account was photographed on top of the paper but do not link to the paper itself. If someone wants to read at that link they can do so on their own or find it downstairs. The statement is evidence and is reported on MSM, I believe. Discuss the evidence but do not link to this site, at least not here.

Hope that is clear.

 

[reedus23]

They just NOW decide to come forward? Uh huh. I smell a rat.

You don't know when they came forward. Neither do I. Could have been immediately. Could have been just now. You smell a rat because it doesn't fit the story you want to believe.

 

[reedus23]

I think people should close their businesses and leave town. Let the cough cough peaceful protesters have at it with no LE, no stores,no resturants. Allow them to implode.
And those calling for OW's death should be arrested AND CHARGED.
The town is full of people acting like mukalucks.

Good lord. No words.

 

[sonjay]

They came from the instagram account of the guy who posted the landscaper video.

Thanks, but that doesn't tell me anything about the authenticity of the photos or the note itself, or explain how the guy who posted the video happened to have photos of the CW's note, nor why the note was lying next to a copy of the communist party's newspaper. The note itself really appears to be photocopies of the note. Assuming the CWs didn't have a photocopier in their truck, the photocopy had to have been made at some later point.. and so how did the guy taking the video happen to take photos of photocopies of the note?

Not that's your job to provide the information.... I'm just saying that I still have no evidence or confirmation that those photos are of the actual note, or that they're photos of a photocopy of the actual note. The note seems to reflect what the MSM are reporting about the note. It just seems all sorts of mysterious how that guy got pictures of photocopies of the note. Or whose communist party newspaper that is.

 

[SStarr33]

Thanks, but that doesn't tell me anything about the authenticity of the photos or the note itself, or explain how the guy who posted the video happened to have photos of the CW's note, nor why the note was lying next to a copy of the communist party's newspaper. The note itself really appears to be photocopies of the note. Assuming the CWs didn't have a photocopier in their truck, the photocopy had to have been made at some later point.. and so how did the guy taking the video happen to take photos of photocopies of the note?

Not that's your job to provide the information.... I'm just saying that I still have no evidence or confirmation that those photos are of the actual note, or that they're photos of a photocopy of the actual note. The note seems to reflect what the MSM are reporting about the note. It just seems all sorts of mysterious how that guy got pictures of photocopies of the note. Or whose communist party newspaper that is.

That's the stuff we are trying to sleuth

 

[reedus23]

IMO, the contractor's arms were more to the side. Which could go with the gesture "What? Are you going to shoot me?" as Josie described.

It seems there are some videos which support Josie's version, which have not been made public but are known to FBI.

I agree with the last portion of the article from the CNN link:

Neil Bruntrager, general counsel for the St. Louis Police Officers Association, cautioned against rushing to judgment. Witness accounts are important, he said, but need to be evaluated with all the evidence.

"I'm not saying disregard them. I'm saying that we will judge their credibility by all of the evidence, not by one statement, and certainly not by a 15-second video clip," he said.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/10/us/ferguson-michael-brown-shooting-witnesses/index.html

Thought this was such a good statement by Bruntrager it was worth bumping. No rush to judgment!!!!!! Witness accounts are important!!!!! Evaluate all the evidence!!!!!! Don't disregard the statements!!!!!! Judge their credibility with all of the evidence!!!!!

Very sound response by Bruntrager.

 

[Klood-N]

I've been trying to make sense of the construction guys' descriptions of what they saw. Trying to correlate their reports with those of other witnesses and what we know from other evidence.

Fox2Now interviewed one of them - I'll call him CW1 - he's apparently the one who swore and spoke with MB earlier.

CW1 - Swearing/Religious CW - interviewed by Fox2Now
http://fox2now.com/2014/09/08/two-j...tion-workers-describe-michael-brown-shooting/

Kohler said the worker described a shot fired while Brown was running away.

The worker said Brown was “…kind of walking back toward the cop,” his “hands were still up” and the witness described Officer Wilson “backing up as he fired.”

The eyewitness who spoke to Fox 2 described hearing two pops, then looked up to see Brown.

“I saw him staggering and running and when he finally caught himself he threw his hands up and started screaming OK OK OK OK OK and then the three officers come through the thing and the one just started shooting,” the worker told Fox 2

The Fox 2 witness immediately wrote down what he saw. He also drew a diagram showing him and his co-worker about 50 yards away. He wrote that the officer “emptied his gun into the guy.”​

And CS2 was interviewed by the St. L. Post-Dispatch

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_14a3e5f8-6c6a-5deb-92fe-87fcee622c29.html

He said Brown struck up a rambling, half-hour conversation with his co-worker.

About a half-hour later, the worker heard a gunshot. Then he saw Brown running away from a police car. Wilson trailed about 10 to 15 feet behind, gun in hand. About 90 feet away from the car, the worker said, Wilson fired another shot at Brown, whose back was turned.

The worker said Brown stumbled and then stopped, put his hands up, turned around and said, “OK, OK, OK, OK, OK.” He said he told investigators from the St. Louis County police and the FBI that because of the stumble, it seemed to him that Brown had been wounded.

Wilson, gun drawn, also stopped about 10 feet in front of Brown, the worker said.

Then Brown moved, the worker said. “He’s kind of walking back toward the cop.” He said Brown’s hands were still up.

Wilson began backing up as he fired, the worker said.

After the third shot, Brown’s hands started going down, and he moved about 25 feet toward Wilson, who kept backing away and firing. The worker said he could not tell from where he watched — about 50 feet away — if Brown’s motion toward Wilson after the shots was “a stumble to the ground” or “OK, I’m going to get you, you’re already shooting me.”​

CNN, in their inimitable fashion, quote both the CWs but don't clearly distinguish which one is which:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/10/us/ferguson-michael-brown-shooting-witnesses/index.html

The man told CNN he heard one gunshot, then another shot about 30 seconds later.

"The cop didn't say get on the ground. He just kept shooting," the man said.

That same witness described the gruesome scene, saying he saw Brown's "brains come out of his head," again stating, "his hands were up."

The video shows the man raising his arms in the air -- just as, he says, Brown was doing when he was shot.

The other contractor told CNN he saw Brown running away from a police car.

Brown "put his hands up," the construction worker said, and "the officer was chasing him."

The contractor says he saw Wilson fire a shot at Brown while his back was turned.

The men said they didn't seen how the confrontation started.​

How far away were they? According to Fox2Now, CW1 "immediately wrote down what he saw. He also drew a diagram showing him and his co-worker about 50 yards away." But it's being widely reported that they were 50 feet away.

The difference between 50 feet and 50 yards is... well... 100 feet. That's a pretty big difference insofar as what they'd have been able to see and hear.

What exactly did they see?

On MB running away:

CW1 says “I saw him staggering and running"
CW2 says he saw Brown running away from a police car.
One of the CWs told CNN, Brown "put his hands up," the construction worker said, and "the officer was chasing him."

I'm trying to picture putting up my hands while being chased. I just can't visualize it.

On MB turning and moving back toward OW:

CW1 says Brown was “…kind of walking back toward the cop,” his “hands were still up” and the witness described Officer Wilson “backing up as he fired.”

CW2 says, Then Brown moved, the worker said. “He’s kind of walking back toward the cop.” He said Brown’s hands were still up. Wilson began backing up as he fired. After the third shot, Brown’s hands started going down, and he moved about 25 feet toward Wilson, who kept backing away and firing. The worker said he could not tell from where he watched — about 50 feet away — if Brown’s motion toward Wilson after the shots was “a stumble to the ground” or “OK, I’m going to get you, you’re already shooting me.”

My thoughts:

Whichever one claims to have seen "his brains come out of his head" is already suspect purely because of that. As far as I know, no brains came out of MB's head, and it's highly highly doubtful the CW could have seen that happen from where they were, if it did happen. But I'm not sure which one claims to have seen the brains.

CS1's statement that says he threw his hands up and started screaming OK OK OK OK OK and then the three officers come through the thing and the one just started shooting. That's also suspect. In his version, 3 officers were present before the final barrage of gunfire. We're pretty sure that's not the case.

Per CNN, one CW (I don't know which one) said that after the third shot Brown's hands started coming down. If that audio of the gunfire is authentic, I don't know how he could be that specific about the "third shot." I sure couldn't.

The CW seen on video holding his arms "up" -- I agree with the people describing that as more holding his arms "out." The CW's arm positions were not that of surrender, IMO. If that's an accurate representation of how MB was holding his arms, it's not indicative of surrendering.

Brady had said earlier that MB had his arms sort of hugging his abdomen, never saw MB's arms up and that if MB ever had his arms up that Brady missed seeing that part. CW guy says arms up/out. The overheard-guy on the Black Canseco recording made no mention of arms up or out. DJ, PC & TM all said "arms up."

Both CWs say that MB was moving back toward OW. One says "walking back toward the cop," the other CW says he moved about 25 feet toward OW and that it was either “a stumble to the ground” or “OK, I’m going to get you, you’re already shooting me.”

Even PC, in one of her interviews, admits that MB was moving back toward OW -- although in her version, it was only about a centimeter.

Both CWs say there was a shot fired while MB was fleeing. So do PC & TM, and DJ. I don't recall what Brady said, if anything, about that. The Black Canseco overheard-guy made no mention of any gunfire while MB was fleeing. Based on the audio of the gunfire, I can't figure out when this could have occurred. The shots were all in very quick succession, with only that one very brief pause after 6 rounds.


Obviously, these witness accounts can't all be right. DJ, PC & TM are so dubious that I have to disregard their statements altogether. That leaves Black Canseco overheard-guy, CWs 1 & 2, and Brady. Plus Josie's second-hand account -- which I tend to give credibility to because it revealed details that were later confirmed by physical evidence and additional witnesses.

What I'm left with is, after the assault at the car, and the gunshot there, it's certain that MB fled. OW may or may not have fired at least once while MB was fleeing. It's remotely possible (IMO) that a shot from behind may have grazed the inside of MB's arm, but I don't think so. At some point, MB realized he was being chased (and possibly shot at), and that he wasn't going to get away. MB turned around and began advancing toward OW. When MB turned around, he may have had his arms up or out, or down around his abdomen, or somewhere else altogether. As MB advanced toward OW, OW probably backed up, and he continued to fire until MB fell dead -- probably within just a few feet of OW.

That's enough for me. OW was legitimately in fear for his life at the time he fired the fatal shots. They can stop rioting and threatening now, and go on home.

Wow, sonjay, this post is EPIC and your analysis so thorough. I've saved the URL to it so I have it for reference. Thank you.

The three main things that have jumped out to me about their testimony is:
- that they said 3 officers, which doesn't appear to match the data we have to date;
- Michael saying ok repeatedly doesn't make sense or match anything we've heard thus far. I believe that Darren said, "Freeze". It seems like that'd be a gut level spontaneous exclamation;
- That Darren was backing up, just as he's said according to multiple accounts, and witnesses corroborate. That is HUGE. An officer would never back up while firing at a subject unless said subject is advancing on them and close enough to pose a threat, so you back up to provide safe distance while firing to neutralize the threat. He would not back up if Michael was stationary. That's my take on it.

 

[DebinGA]

MB in blow-up/frowny face mode: http://shtfplan.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/michael-brown-4.jpg

*note position of arms

 

[SStarr33]

Wow, sonjay, this post is EPIC and your analysis so thorough. I've saved the URL to it so I have it for reference. Thank you.

The three main things that have jumped out to me about their testimony is:
- that they said 3 officers, which doesn't appear to match the data we have to date;
- Michael saying ok repeatedly doesn't make sense or match anything we've heard thus far. I believe that Darren said, "Freeze". It seems like that'd be a gut level spontaneous exclamation;
- That Darren was backing up, just as he's said according to multiple accounts, and witnesses corroborate. That is HUGE. An officer would never back up while firing at a subject unless said subject is advancing on them and close enough to pose a threat, so you back up to provide safe distance while firing to neutralize the threat. He would not back up if Michael was stationary. That's my take on it.

There are maps of the scene on a blog that we cannot link to that shows the evidence cones on the scene. These cones are BEHIND MBs body which will probably end up showing that DW was backing up while shooting.