MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #19

[Deleted member 39678]

REMINDER: We have no idea what any of the eyewitnesses have testified to. We know what they said on camera and in TV and print interviews. None of us has access to their actual testimony. So we cannot even begin to decide to discount anyone's "testimony" as evidence. What we have is lots of talk. Only the GJ has heard anything that could properly be called Testimony.

Another thing to consider is if an eye witness changes their account to fit with information that is made known to them at a later date.

If the witness is consistent with their account from the very beginning to the present, I will give it more weight. Changing story's is not good.

JMO.

 

[katydid23]

We haven't been privy to any forensic evidence. Yet many are "sure" of things that only forensics can only prove or disprove.

Which is why I am waiting to cast my lot on this sad case.

My gut says OW acted justifiably. But the exaggeration and spin on the specifics without any forensic confirmation make me second-guess myself. If a man is innocent of wrong-doing, why is there all the BS dodgy "info" (from sources close to LE�&#65533 quoted in both MSM and in posts here?

If witnesses are worthless and MSM is worthless, why would ANYONE here claim to have an opinion based on strictly facts when there ARE none available to us?

In my personal experiences with LEOS, in cases like this, a lot can be seen by how they are supporting or NOT supporting the accused officer. If there were no corroborating evidence to back up his story, and if he seemed hinky and dishonest, they would be distancing themselves, not doubling down. jmo

 

[Klood-N]

Maybe officer Wilson didn't suffer an orbital fracture but was still beaten enough to cause memory issues. That's all I'm wondering about.

Darren Wilson, the Ferguson, Mo., police officer whose fatal shooting of Michael Brown touched off more than a week of demonstrations, suffered severe facial injuries, including an orbital (eye socket) fracture, and was nearly beaten unconscious by Brown moments before firing his gun, a source close to the department's top brass told FoxNews.com.

“The Assistant (Police) Chief took him to the hospital, his face all swollen on one side,” said the insider. “He was beaten very severely.”

Wilson suffered a fractured eye socket in the fracas, and was left dazed by the initial confrontation, the source said. He is now "traumatized, scared for his life and his family, injured and terrified"...
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/2...en-before-shooting-michael-brown-says-source/

 

[tlcya]

Another thing to consider is if an eye witness changes their account to fit with information that is made known to them at a later date.

If the witness is consistent with their account from the very beginning to the present, I will give it more weight. Changing story's is not good.

JMO.

I agree, that is not good. Did that happen here? I have my opinion, but we have not got the forensics, we don't have any testimony given to GJ and we don't know if the GJ is even allowed to consider interviews they saw with possible testifiers but IF they are aware of certain (IMO) changes to accounts as more facts came to light and other witnesses chimed in, I cannot imagine it would be easy to ignore if the sworn testimony was differing in glaring ways to previous accounts jurors might be aware of.

I know one thing as fact. I do not envy this jury having to deliberate this particular shooting. Talk about pressure and much of it having little to do with truth or justice. JMO.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

We haven't been privy to any forensic evidence. Yet many are "sure" of things that only forensics can only prove or disprove.

Which is why I am waiting to cast my lot on this sad case.

My gut says OW acted justifiably. But the exaggeration and spin on the specifics without any forensic confirmation make me second-guess myself. If a man is innocent of wrong-doing, why is there all the BS dodgy "info" (from sources close to LE�&#65533 quoted in both MSM and in posts here?

If witnesses are worthless and MSM is worthless, why would ANYONE here claim to have an opinion based on strictly facts when there ARE none available to us?

BBM

I wouldn't go as far to say that all of the witness's and MSM are worthless. I base my feelings on this case that it doesn't make any sense that officer Wilson would gun down a person for not getting out of the street.

If and when there's evidence to show that this was an unjustified police shooting I will then change my stance.

JMO.

 

[Klood-N]

I was speaking to the misreporting being taken as gospel.

Many jumped on this hyperbole as fact. With zero proof.

How can one claim it's misreporting and hyperbole, with zero proof of same?

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I agree, that is not good. Did that happen here? I have my opinion, but we have not got the forensics, we don't have any testimony given to GJ and we don't know if the GJ is even allowed to consider interviews they saw with possible testifiers but IF they are aware of certain (IMO) changes to accounts as more facts came to light and other witnesses chimed in, I cannot imagine it would be easy to ignore if the sworn testimony was differing in glaring ways to previous accounts jurors might be aware of.

I know one thing as fact. I do not envy this jury having to deliberate this particular shooting. Talk about pressure and much of it having little to do with truth or justice. JMO.

I'm like you and have an opinion about this case. I'm not sure if the State will present exculpatory evidence to the Grand Jury. What are the rules about that?

If the State doesn't present any known exculpatory evidence, how will the Grand Jury know about it or consider it?

 

[bettybaby00]

I'm like you and have an opinion about this case. I'm not sure if the State will present exculpatory evidence to the Grand Jury. What are the rules about that?

If the State doesn't present any known exculpatory evidence, how will the Grand Jury know about it or consider it?

The DA has publicly stated ALL evidence will be presented, including OWs statement(s), witness statements, OWs hospital records, the robbery video, etc., etc. Of course all ballistics, forensics and autopsy results. My feeling is that a lot of it, especially forensics IMO, will be exculpatory in nature.

So everyone gets the last statement is my opinion, right?

 

[Deleted member 39678]

The DA has publicly stated ALL evidence will be presented, including OWs statement(s), witness statements, OWs hospital records, the robbery video, etc., etc. Of course all ballistics, forensics and autopsy results. My feeling is that a lot of it, especially forensics IMO, will be exculpatory in nature.

So everyone gets the last statement is my opinion, right?

I wonder what the Grand Jury will think if the majority of the evidence is exculpatory? Will they ask themselves "Why are we hearing this case?".

 

[EvilSoup]

In my personal experiences with LEOS, in cases like this, a lot can be seen by how they are supporting or NOT supporting the accused officer. If there were no corroborating evidence to back up his story, and if he seemed hinky and dishonest, they would be distancing themselves, not doubling down. jmo

What confuses me are that there are people saying that eyewitnesses are behind OW, but also, when referring to eyewitnesses who are differing from the pro-OW statements, then "eyewitnesses are not to be believed".

So is it just eyewitnesses who recall seeing thing some people do not like that are considered "unreliable" while the "dozen" who back up OW are to be believed?

 

[Muffet]

My point was that the orbital fracture was espoused in post after post as proof of MB's animal brute behavior. The orbital fracture was treated as FACT. When, in fact, it is not a fact.

Throwing feces at a wall just to see what sticks is not proof of anything, except how gullible people are in the absence of facts.

Ok, I think you misunderstood my question. You wrote (BBM):

Well, yes, but the latest articles that I saw linked here stated that there was no orbital fracture . There was some swelling on the face, supposedly, but since I have not seen with my own two eyes the alleged "beating", I am waiting to decide on justifiable homicide.

I said I've heard that around too, but as far as I knew, before I missed some days, the fracture, or not, simply wasn't confirmed.

So I requested help from anyone who could guide me as to the source of the "no fracture" claim.

It looks like LambChop has answered... There's still no confirmation either way.

Again, like you, I'm only interested for the sake of clarity. This case is hard enough to discuss even when the wheat is kept separated from the chaff! :scared:

 

[popsicle]

KMOX St. Louis News ‏@kmoxnews 13m
#Ferguson mayor resists calls to resign; opens up about mistakes: http://cbsloc.al/1m9sDJn

“I think me stepping down – I’m not sure that it achieves some of the goals [from] the people that I am hearing out there, other than the goal of just getting rid of me,” Knowles said. “If I step down today, I’ll be replaced by another white man who’s 30 years my senior.”

 

[Linda7NJ]

What confuses me are that there are people saying that eyewitnesses are behind OW, but also, when referring to eyewitnesses who are differing from the pro-OW statements, then "eyewitnesses are not to be believed".

So is it just eyewitnesses who recall seeing thing some people do not like that are considered "unreliable" while the "dozen" who back up OW are to be believed?

This is how I came to my conclusion...I listened to all the witness statements. Many witnesses gave multiple statements...

What I was able to extrapolate...

there was a serious struggle at the vehicle.
Part of Mike Brown was in that vehicle.
Wilson's gun discharged in the vehicle.
Brown ran
Wilson fired
Brown turned around
Brown advanced toward Wilson and was shot

Witnesses that claimed he was shot in the back....scratched.
Witnesses that claimed he moved forward a centimeter...

Hands up or hands down ...doesn't matter to me.

Witnesses that claim Wilson stood over him and shot him...scratched

Witness that claimed Wilson ran Browns feet over first....scratched

Witnesses who tell different versions every time...Browns partner DJ...scratch...

There are consistencies. IMO Those consistencies prove Wilson was justified when viewed with the totality of the known evidence, including crime scene photos and autopsy by Baden.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Muffet]

Maybe officer Wilson didn't suffer an orbital fracture but was still beaten enough to cause memory issues. That's all I'm wondering about.

Oh, gosh, I hope not.

I agree that, fracture or not he could have. Common with concussions, for instance.

I don't know, but he definitely looked like people I've seen who've had their bell rung - both in his physical posture and movements and slacky jaw.

 

[Klood-N]

Please read back thread after thread. The orbital fracture was stated as fact, not supposition.

And to me, it DOES matter. Why gild the lily if the lily needs no gilt?

I'm not sure why you think it's "a wild story", "gilding the lily", and misinformation, which means false or inaccurate. Multiple news agencies have reported different sources for the orbital fracture information. The initial report through Gateway Pundit was from one source in LE and one source in the prosecutor's office, then re-confirmed with a 3rd local source. Fox's source was someone close to top brass, etc. Do you think each separate news agency is lying about having a source, or about what their source said? Do you think each source lied?

Here's many of the reports regarding Wilson's injuries. Which do you take issue with?


That Brown was unarmed is undisputed -- St. Louis County Police Chief Jon Belmar said every casing found at the scene was from the officer's weapon -- but he said at a Sunday news conference that Brown was not an innocent victim.

"The genesis of this was a physical confrontation," Belmar said, adding that Ferguson police asked his office to investigate the case.

Without revealing what led to the dispute, Belmar said the preliminary investigation showed that the Ferguson officer tried to exit his vehicle, but Brown pushed him back into the car, "where he physically assaulted the police officer" and struggled over the officer's weapon, Belmar said.

The officer was taken to an area hospital where he was treated for a "swollen face," Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson said, adding he had not personally seen the officer's injury.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/11/us/missouri-ferguson-michael-brown-what-we-know/

The officer who shot Brown was injured in the confrontation and the “side of his face was swollen,” Jackson said. The officer was treated at a hospital, the chief said, and he was “very shaken.”
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-ferguson-police-shooting-08132014-story.html

Jackson, who spoke on the phone with News 4's Laura Hettiger Wednesday morning, said the officer "was hit" and the "side of his face was swollen."
http://www.kmov.com/special-coverag...oting-suffered-facial-injuries-271079471.html

Darren Wilson, the Ferguson, Mo., police officer whose fatal shooting of Michael Brown touched off more than a week of demonstrations, suffered severe facial injuries, including an orbital (eye socket) fracture, and was nearly beaten unconscious by Brown moments before firing his gun, a source close to the department's top brass told FoxNews.com.

“The Assistant (Police) Chief took him to the hospital, his face all swollen on one side,” said the insider. “He was beaten very severely.”

Wilson suffered a fractured eye socket in the fracas, and was left dazed by the initial confrontation, the source said. He is now "traumatized, scared for his life and his family, injured and terrified"...
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/2...en-before-shooting-michael-brown-says-source/

A family friend of Wilson’s told The Washington Post that Wilson suffered a fractured eye socket. Ferguson police have said that Wilson’s face was injured and he needed medical treatment...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ecutors-have-not-spoken-to-darren-wilson-yet/


"Nancy, without question, there was some level of interaction, strong interaction, between the officer and Michael at the car. We don`t deny that,” Daryl Parks, attorney for Brown’s family said Monday night. “I think as evidence comes out, you'll see and hear more of that.
http://www.hlntv.com/video/2014/08/18/michael-brown-shooting-autopsy-fight-car

PARKS: Nancy, without question, there was some level of interaction, strong interaction, between the officer and Michael at the car. We don`t deny that. I think as evidence comes out, you`ll see and hear more of that. But that`s not what killed him.

GRACE: But wait a minute. When we first started --

PARKS: What killed him were the kill shots.

GRACE: -- you told me that the cop grabbed him from inside the car, and was struggling with him that way.

PARKS: I didn`t tell you that. I told you there was an interaction. This would be the first time you talking to me about them at the car. So that interaction didn`t happen at the car. More than a tussle, I would call it...


PARKS: Nancy, you`re talking about two different things. The part about the gun involved when the officer was in the car and attempted to get out of the car, first of all, and I admitted to you there was some type of altercation that happened as the officer was in the car and Michael was outside of the car...

NG: ...Daryl, I want to get back to the physical confrontation with the police officers. In your scenario, when does that happen in relation to the other bullets fired?

PARKS: Nancy, from the evidence that we have so far, there was something that happened between Michael and the officer while the officer was in the car, without question. I think that the evidence in this case, though, will have to look at what the injuries to the officer and the injuries to Michael that may be attributed to whatever happened as Michael stood outside of the car.

"that cut mark plus the other injuries to Michael`s hand plus whatever injuries to the officer, then you can start explaining what may have happened in the car."


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1408/18/ng.01.html

:31 forward, listen at :41 "there may have been blows, they had an altercation" - Daryl Parks

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/the-kelly-file/index.html#/v/3739124713001

DARYL PARKS, BROWN FAMILY ATTORNEY: "...without question we know, that there was a major altercation at the car. There's no question about that, so you will never hear me say there wasn't a major altercation within the car. There was even a gunshot...within the car"
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1408/20/ng.01.html

Officer Darren Wilson also reportedly suffered injuries to his face and neck.
http://fox2now.com/2014/08/21/fox-2...-from-witnesses-of-fatal-mike-brown-shooting/

Hospital X-rays of the injury have been submitted to the St. Louis County prosecuting attorney and will be shared with a grand jury now weighing evidence to determine whether Officer Darren Wilson should be charged in the shooting.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...7524ea-293c-11e4-958c-268a320a60ce_story.html

 

[deoneta]

So I just kinda had my mind blown in another "place" online. No link I can provide but I do think it is appropriate to discuss here. Anyway, a theory was put forth that perhaps DJ really never saw much of anything at all, because he ran for the hills the minute this went down. Then when he made his way back, he came upon the grassy knoll discussions about hands up etc and picked up from there. So in other words, I had originally thought that DJ had started the chorus but what if he slinked back to check the status of what was going on and heard this narrative and figured that was his best way to get out of the trouble he may have been in after the robbery and the initial assault. Hmmmm....

This has been on my mind from the start. In an incident that is reported to have taken place in 50 seconds start to finish, with the shots described as being fired within 8 and a half seconds, DJ claims to have ducked behind a car and begged a passerby for a ride then admitted to leaving the scene. One has to wonder how much he could have seen. All MOO

 

[Truthy]

Yet others - Just gonna have to wait until January now

And I don't anticipate anything coming out in the next 4 months to change anyone's perspectives.

Well except for leaks, and newly discovered videos! And pending lawsuits!
t'll also be interesting to hear if voter registration soars in the AA community there, IIRC, they have elections coming in April.

 

[Klood-N]

What confuses me are that there are people saying that eyewitnesses are behind OW, but also, when referring to eyewitnesses who are differing from the pro-OW statements, then "eyewitnesses are not to be believed".

So is it just eyewitnesses who recall seeing thing some people do not like that are considered "unreliable" while the "dozen" who back up OW are to be believed?

More than a dozen, to stick with what's been reported. Frydaddy, sonjay, K_Z and many others have made well reasoned posts as to what has made various witness reports appear suspect and unreliable. Many facts, such as obstructions, distance and math, the autopsy report, and conflicts within their own statements have been discussed and solid logic applied.

 

[EvilSoup]

I'm not sure why you think it's "a wild story", "gilding the lily", and misinformation, which means false or inaccurate. Multiple news agencies have reported different sources for the orbital fracture information. The initial report through Gateway Pundit was from one source in LE and one source in the prosecutor's office, then re-confirmed with a 3rd local source. Fox's source was someone close to top brass, etc. Do you think each separate news agency is lying about having a source about what their source said? Do you think each source lied?

Here's many of the reports regarding Wilson's injuries. Which do you take issue with?


That Brown was unarmed is undisputed -- St. Louis County Police Chief Jon Belmar said every casing found at the scene was from the officer's weapon -- but he said at a Sunday news conference that Brown was not an innocent victim.

"The genesis of this was a physical confrontation," Belmar said, adding that Ferguson police asked his office to investigate the case.

Without revealing what led to the dispute, Belmar said the preliminary investigation showed that the Ferguson officer tried to exit his vehicle, but Brown pushed him back into the car, "where he physically assaulted the police officer" and struggled over the officer's weapon, Belmar said.

The officer was taken to an area hospital where he was treated for a "swollen face," Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson said, adding he had not personally seen the officer's injury.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/11/us/missouri-ferguson-michael-brown-what-we-know/

The officer who shot Brown was injured in the confrontation and the “side of his face was swollen,” Jackson said. The officer was treated at a hospital, the chief said, and he was “very shaken.”
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-ferguson-police-shooting-08132014-story.html

Jackson, who spoke on the phone with News 4's Laura Hettiger Wednesday morning, said the officer "was hit" and the "side of his face was swollen."
http://www.kmov.com/special-coverag...oting-suffered-facial-injuries-271079471.html

Darren Wilson, the Ferguson, Mo., police officer whose fatal shooting of Michael Brown touched off more than a week of demonstrations, suffered severe facial injuries, including an orbital (eye socket) fracture, and was nearly beaten unconscious by Brown moments before firing his gun, a source close to the department's top brass told FoxNews.com.

“The Assistant (Police) Chief took him to the hospital, his face all swollen on one side,” said the insider. “He was beaten very severely.”

Wilson suffered a fractured eye socket in the fracas, and was left dazed by the initial confrontation, the source said. He is now "traumatized, scared for his life and his family, injured and terrified"...
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/2...en-before-shooting-michael-brown-says-source/

A family friend of Wilson’s told The Washington Post that Wilson suffered a fractured eye socket. Ferguson police have said that Wilson’s face was injured and he needed medical treatment...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ecutors-have-not-spoken-to-darren-wilson-yet/


"Nancy, without question, there was some level of interaction, strong interaction, between the officer and Michael at the car. We don`t deny that,” Daryl Parks, attorney for Brown’s family said Monday night. “I think as evidence comes out, you'll see and hear more of that.
http://www.hlntv.com/video/2014/08/18/michael-brown-shooting-autopsy-fight-car

PARKS: Nancy, without question, there was some level of interaction, strong interaction, between the officer and Michael at the car. We don`t deny that. I think as evidence comes out, you`ll see and hear more of that. But that`s not what killed him.

GRACE: But wait a minute. When we first started --

PARKS: What killed him were the kill shots.

GRACE: -- you told me that the cop grabbed him from inside the car, and was struggling with him that way.

PARKS: I didn`t tell you that. I told you there was an interaction. This would be the first time you talking to me about them at the car. So that interaction didn`t happen at the car. More than a tussle, I would call it...


PARKS: Nancy, you`re talking about two different things. The part about the gun involved when the officer was in the car and attempted to get out of the car, first of all, and I admitted to you there was some type of altercation that happened as the officer was in the car and Michael was outside of the car...

NG: ...Daryl, I want to get back to the physical confrontation with the police officers. In your scenario, when does that happen in relation to the other bullets fired?

PARKS: Nancy, from the evidence that we have so far, there was something that happened between Michael and the officer while the officer was in the car, without question. I think that the evidence in this case, though, will have to look at what the injuries to the officer and the injuries to Michael that may be attributed to whatever happened as Michael stood outside of the car.

"that cut mark plus the other injuries to Michael`s hand plus whatever injuries to the officer, then you can start explaining what may have happened in the car."


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1408/18/ng.01.html

:31 forward, listen at :41 "there may have been blows, they had an altercation" - Daryl Parks

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/the-kelly-file/index.html#/v/3739124713001

DARYL PARKS, BROWN FAMILY ATTORNEY: "...without question we know, that there was a major altercation at the car. There's no question about that, so you will never hear me say there wasn't a major altercation within the car. There was even a gunshot...within the car"
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1408/20/ng.01.html

Officer Darren Wilson also reportedly suffered injuries to his face and neck.
http://fox2now.com/2014/08/21/fox-2...-from-witnesses-of-fatal-mike-brown-shooting/

Hospital X-rays of the injury have been submitted to the St. Louis County prosecuting attorney and will be shared with a grand jury now weighing evidence to determine whether Officer Darren Wilson should be charged in the shooting.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...7524ea-293c-11e4-958c-268a320a60ce_story.html

Which, if any of these have been confirmed by the people conducting the investigation?

I must have missed the investigative findings as released to the public.

"As reported by sources close to LE" is not the same as a definitive report on the investigation.

MSM cannot even use proper spelling and grammar, much less fact-check.

I re-assert that i will wait for the GJ to make a statement before I jump on any bandwagon. But I understand how some do not feel a need to see evidence before making up their minds. I'm just not one of those.

 

[popsicle]

Well except for leaks, and newly discovered videos! And pending lawsuits!
t'll also be interesting to hear if voter registration soars in the AA community there, IIRC, they have elections coming in April.

Voter registration and actual voting are...well... and then continuing to be involved.