MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #19

[Deleted member 39678]

I was speaking to the misreporting being taken as gospel.

Many jumped on this hyperbole as fact. With zero proof.

IMO, OW was not dazed or otherwise compromised by his injuries. I think he was a poor shot because his target was running towards him. But I really do not buy that OW was horrifically beaten. We would have seen proof by now.

And, IMO, OW's reasonable fear would still be reasonable even if he was not facially assaulted. I just don't understand the need to exaggerate and manufacture injuries when the officer was within his rights to shoot to kill anyway.

I think they were padding the nest in case the "reasonable" thing came under scrutiny. I think speaking the truth is always the better way to go.

I guess we shall see.

I'm not taking any unverified reports as gospel. I'm keeping an open mind about this case. I'm not sure who is "padding the nest". It wont do any good to do that when the facts about officer Wilson's injury's will be shown to the Grand Jury.

JMO.

 

[katydid23]

Ok, tell me the person in threat of harm. Not even a name, who was he specifically and articulably threatening and tell me exactly what he was doing or saying to them that created that threat? I completely understand your desire to use events that happened previously to try to justify future actions but I have not heard one single thing that MB posed a threat to the public at that moment in time.

That's not how it works. The cop does not have to think, 'wow, that girl over there in the pking lot might be carjacked inb the next 5 minutes--guess I can shoot him. '

And YES, using events from the IMMEDIATE PAST, is called a pattern of violence, and is the best indicator of future actions. MB was in a violent and aggressive mode. That was indicated by his actions within the past 30 minutes. That in itself indicates his probability of being a threat to the public. That, added to his refusal to the freeze when asked AT GUNPOINT to do so.

 

[katydid23]

The longer this drags out the better. At least as far as the violence goes. Here on the other hand, we ran out of issues to discuss 4 weeks ago. Now we just rehash the same stuff over and over. Myself included.

One side - Will defend OW to the death regardless of what is presented to the contrary
Other side - Want OW convicted without a trial
Yet others - Just gonna have to wait until January now

And I don't anticipate anything coming out in the next 4 months to change anyone's perspectives.

I think there is a possibility that some of the reports will be leaked. Maybe the tox reports, the Case autopsy, or even the juvenile records. Any of the above will give us a lil sumthin sumthin to chew on.

 

[EvilSoup]

BBM

I've too seen people say that "there was no orbital fracture," but my understanding was that the orbital fracture report was just "not confirmed".

Not that it makes a big difference to the bottom line imo, but for the sake of clarity, and since I might have missed an announcement somewhere...
Does anybody have a link that clarifies what exactly was "confirmed false" vs "not confirmed true"?



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My point was that the orbital fracture was espoused in post after post as proof of MB's animal brute behavior. The orbital fracture was treated as FACT. When, in fact, it is not a fact.

Throwing feces at a wall just to see what sticks is not proof of anything, except how gullible people are in the absence of facts.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

But most of the eyewitness testimony favor OW. They mostly say MB came at OW.

Many people are behind OW based on those eyewitnesses, including Josie.

If we discount them, and we have been given NO other evidence to consider, then we are unable to form any opinions based on anything other than guessing.

I don't discount eye witness testimony if it's bolstered by forensic evidence. If it's being presented as stand alone evidence to prove something is where I have problems.

JMO.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Interesting speculation, I must admit.

And remember...he also switched his shirt


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[tlcya]

REMINDER: We have no idea what any of the eyewitnesses have testified to. We know what they said on camera and in TV and print interviews. None of us has access to their actual testimony. So we cannot even begin to decide to discount anyone's "testimony" as evidence. What we have is lots of talk. Only the GJ has heard anything that could properly be called Testimony.

 

[Lovejac]

I'm thrilled....it's very cold in January





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Might cool down some hot heads.

 

[hambirg]

Ok, tell me the person in threat of harm. Not even a name, who was he specifically and articulably threatening and tell me exactly what he was doing or saying to them that created that threat? I completely understand your desire to use events that happened previously to try to justify future actions but I have not heard one single thing that MB posed a threat to the public at that moment in time.

In struggling over the gun in OW's SUV, MB became a threat to the public. The gun discharged and anyone in the vicinity, including his friend DJ, could have been shot. It was a blatant disregard for the safety of those around him. That threat didn't magically disappear a few seconds later.

ETA- Would a "reasonable" person in OW's shoes, not be able to use a logical thought process in surmising that an approaching MB might once again engage in a struggle over the gun? That in that struggle, the gun might discharge again this time shooting OW or anyone in the vicinity? Do we even know if OW knew, in that short amount of time, that the first shot didn't hit someone? I don't think we do.

 

[Klood-N]

What I do not understand is why the FPD is ignoring the Sunshine Laws and media's specific requests for a detailed incident report. Releasing other info, and a completely blank incident report is thumbing their nose at their state laws. IMHO. They are causing a lot of distrust and angst, and do not have a legal leg to stand on.
I read there is also supposed to be another document filed when there is a shooting of this type, and that also is required to be released as per their sunshine law.
I agree, they are arranging leaks with those friendly to OW instead of releasing information they are required by law to release.
Will add links to relevant statues if anyone needs.
MOO

This statement is not accurate. Please see Chief Belmar's press conference less than 24 hours after the shooting, the morning of 8/10. Chief Jackson turned the shooting investigation over to Belmar minutes after it occurred. Also, please see Chief Jackson's statement and information release 8/14, referencing that his dept was responsible for the strong arm robbery investigation and it was closed, so the information was released per Sunshine/FOI. Also, here is the statement from the Ferguson City attorney posted previously.

Ferguson City Attorney Stephanie Karr makes Statement on FOI Requests

Ferguson, Missouri – September 5th, 2014 - Within days of the tragic events on August 9, the City of Ferguson began receiving multiple requests for information and documents. While some of these requests were made in writing, many requests were made verbally due to the fact that the City’s website and email were down at several points during that week. City personnel cataloged all requests and treated them in the same manner as it would any Sunshine Law request. (The “Sunshine Law” is Missouri’s equivalent of the federal Freedom of Information Act).
Several reporters, news organizations and others asked for documents specifically pertaining to Michael Brown. One such request was made by the St. Louis Post Dispatch. On August 12, 2014, the paper requested “all documentation concerning the events leading up to and including the shooting of Michael Brown” which shall include “incident, arrest and investigative reports, 911 audio, photos and video retained by the police department.” Another request, made on August 14, 2014, by Judicial Watch requested all records relating to Michael Brown and dated between August 1, 2013, and August 9, 2014.
The Sunshine Law dictates that Governmental entities must respond to both general requests and specific requests and release all documents that are responsive to the those requests, unless those documents are otherwise closed.
The Ferguson police department retained the incident and investigative report of the store robbery which occurred less than 10 minutes before the shooting. The reports, which included the surveillance video, concerned Michael Brown. Under the Sunshine Law, the police department had no reason to close these records and withhold them from the public.
By the date of August 15, the City having reached its statutory deadline to respond to the information requests, released the store robbery reports, including the surveillance video.
###
For Media Contact, please call: 314-873-7975
http://www.devinjamesgroup.com/ferg...ephanie-karr-makes-statement-on-foi-requests/

FPD cannot release information from a separate law enforcement agency. And StL has not closed the shooting investigation yet per reports information is still being gathered/processed and submitted to the grand jury as it becomes available. I'd say those feeling distrust are just confused or ignorant regarding these facts.

Yes, please link regarding the document you're referencing.

 

[Muffet]

If your legal assessment was correct, I imagine Crump and Gray and their legal teams would have sued Ferguson already. jmo

Exactly. Add in the DOJ and FBI oversight.

I don't know the laws enough to judge, but we know who to listen to and watch. Lol

 

[Deleted member 39678]

REMINDER: We have no idea what any of the eyewitnesses have testified to. We know what they said on camera and in TV and print interviews. None of us has access to their actual testimony. So we cannot even begin to decide to discount anyone's "testimony" as evidence. What we have is lots of talk. Only the GJ has heard anything that could properly be called Testimony.

I hope that the Grand Jury will look at the eye witness accounts and the physical evidence to come to a conclusion about what happened.

If eye witness testimony doesn't fit with the known facts, then it should be discounted.

JMO.

 

[EvilSoup]

I don't discount eye witness testimony if it's bolstered by forensic evidence. If it's being presented as stand alone evidence to prove something is where I have problems.

JMO.

We haven't been privy to any forensic evidence. Yet many are "sure" of things that only forensics can only prove or disprove.

Which is why I am waiting to cast my lot on this sad case.

My gut says OW acted justifiably. But the exaggeration and spin on the specifics without any forensic confirmation make me second-guess myself. If a man is innocent of wrong-doing, why is there all the BS dodgy "info" (from sources close to LE�&#56847 quoted in both MSM and in posts here?

If witnesses are worthless and MSM is worthless, why would ANYONE here claim to have an opinion based on strictly facts when there ARE none available to us?

 

[katydid23]

I have a ScribD subscription and I read the doc and you are correct. I wish there were a way to copy and paste a pdf, but that also might be not kosher since access to the docs is a paid privilege.

But. Yeah, not following protocol at all.

He might not be following protocol, but I hardly blame him. He has to follow his attorneys advice at this time and not his bosses protocol. He is looking at potential murder charges. So I see no reason for him to go against his attorneys advice and fill out that incident report at this time. Anything he says now can and will be used against him by Crump and company. jmo

 

[Linda7NJ]

My point was that the orbital fracture was espoused in post after post as proof of MB's animal brute behavior. The orbital fracture was treated as FACT. When, in fact, it is not a fact.

Throwing feces at a wall just to see what sticks is not proof of anything, except how gullible people are in the absence of facts.

Honestly, I don't care one way or the other in making my opinion...fracture or not...I'm totally convinced there was a serious struggle in that police vehicle for control over Officer Wilson's weapon.

I will never believe in a million years, <mod snip>, would believe Officer Wilson grabbed Brown by the throat and attempted to drag him onto his lap while he was sitting.

That combined "fact" along with the eyewitness accounts and autopsy prove to me that Brown came toward Wilson and was facing him and moving forward when he was fatally shot.

Justified shoot 100%

IMO


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[Linda7NJ]

Might cool down some hot heads.

Even drug dealers move inside.


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[Klood-N]

Well, yes, but the latest articles that I saw linked here stated that there was no orbital fracture. There was some swelling on the face, supposedly, but since I have not seen with my own two eyes the alleged "beating", I am waiting to decide on justifiable homicide.

There is exactly one unnamed source that CNN reported said no orbital fracture. There are four to five sources that say he did have one. They've been posted several times.

 

[JLSChook]

Well, yes, but the latest articles that I saw linked here stated that there was no orbital fracture. There was some swelling on the face, supposedly, but since I have not seen with my own two eyes the alleged "beating", I am waiting to decide on justifiable homicide.

My point was that the orbital fracture was espoused in post after post as proof of MB's animal brute behavior. The orbital fracture was treated as FACT. When, in fact, it is not a fact.

Throwing feces at a wall just to see what sticks is not proof of anything, except how gullible people are in the absence of facts.

It is a FACT that MB assaulted Officer Wilson and tried to take his weapon. 2 felonies. (Not to mention the strong arm robbery felony)

NONE of us know if he had an orbital fracture or not.

I saw enough of MB being a "brute" in the strong arm robbery video to convince me he was dangerous. Obviously Wilson thought so too and had no choice but to shoot him to save himself and others from further harm.

 

[LambChop]

Something else to consider:

http://www.ask.com/question/what-is-the-definition-of-strong-arm-robbery

Strong arm robbery refers to when physical force and violence is used to carry out the robbery. It refers specifically to when perpetrators assault a victim for the purpose of obtaining their possessions.

If Officer Wilson received notice of the strong-armed robbery he would have no idea what actually happened and to what degree of violence the shop owner suffered. Only that it involved physical force and violence. Then he also is attacked where there was a struggle for his gun. What was the officer to think when we do know from witnesses that MB was headed back towards the officer?

 

[Frydaddy]

The longer this drags out the better. At least as far as the violence goes. Here on the other hand, we ran out of issues to discuss 4 weeks ago. Now we just rehash the same stuff over and over. Myself included.

One side - Will defend OW to the death regardless of what is presented to the contrary
Other side - Want OW convicted without a trial
Yet others - Just gonna have to wait until January now

And I don't anticipate anything coming out in the next 4 months to change anyone's perspectives.

So, will you be absent until Jan or you gonna stick around and point out the evidence I am ignoring.