MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #19

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  • #301
I understand what you are saying. And I think cynicism is a fine attribute. I applaud you for that. But this is a 'discussion' forum and we are speculating, fantasizing, criticizing and formulating responses to what little we are given. And I think that when msm gives a succinct quote with specifics, and says it is from a source close to the top brass, it is probably pretty accurate. I disagree that 'pretty accurate' means evasive. I think it means fairly accurate, basically correct. jmo

If Josies version was way off base and full of errors, we would have been told that already, imo.

ETA BBM

Maybe we need a color coded thingie to indicate level of surety. :D

Seriously, there's probably more of a spectrum than hard line between "rumor" and "fact."

Rumors - any old Joe, bad source - avoid

Spurious claims - as in spin from lawyers (Eg, lying uncovered for hours)

Leaks from officials - get fuzzy. Depends on both the numbers and reliability of the sources and how they fit or conflict with known facts.
Public statements from officials - I take as facts within context.

Public releases of reports, test results, forensics... Fact.

All just my tentative opinion of dubious practical value. I'm too tired to commit to anything after all these hours posting. :dizzy:

:offtobed:

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  • #302
Very highly likely you're right, oceans.

I am torn, because while I too want that bright side, I hate to see things dragged out at the expense of anyone - or an entire town - who needs to be able to move on with their lives.

It's like waiting for a biopsy result. :o

Now what was it that gram use to say: "They are waiting for the dust to settle." That is exactly my gut feeling. Let them cool their jets. If I were on the GJ and I was fearful for my safety if we came back with a "no bill" I'd beg the judge for the maximum time available to release the information to the public. Hey, I could be wrong but that is the feeling I'm getting. The GJ has no other cases but this one. How much more information do they need when their decision comes down to the law and what OW's perception was at the time he shot MB? JMO
 
  • #303
I believe, I suspect, I speculate, I think are also perfectly acceptable ways to say :cow: as I understand it.

:)
 
  • #304
But ...you're not just watching.

What do you think happened with what we have so far? Surely, you must have some idea, thoughts or opinions.

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The only opinion I have is that a lot of people seem to believe some bullets flew towards MB's back as he was fleeing. And that is seeing it outraged people- and the whole reason for the protests is that many people feel it is morally wrong to shoot a person who is unarmed and fleeing. Many people-like myself- remember a time when that was not okay. This info we will probably find out and it'll be the cause of some interesting discussion on current laws.

The scuffle/ tussle in the car? - I have no idea. I have seen and heard of some many ugly, foolish little "scuffles" in my life that started in the stupidest ways that made no sense at all, that trying to put logic on it seems silly to me. Can't even hazard a guess, and it strikes me as odd (and interesting) when people visualize complicated detailed scenarios about it, because my mind doesn't work that way. My only guess is, we may never know with certainty. I think there may not be any reliable witnesses, or at least anyone who does not have a vested interest in the outcome enough for many of us to trust.
I'd been thinking about that- and wondering how much can be deduced from forensics.

Your turn- if you are set in stone convinced, why do you continue to come here? That is hard for me to understand, because once I am certain, I am on to the next thing. Different strokes, eh?

All, obviously MOO.
 
  • #305
Is it disingenuous to require IMHO after every single post, are we really, in 2014, still not past that?

As far as I know, we are not. Did the rules change since this thread started? Serious question.
 
  • #306
From the WashingtonPost link above:

Hospital X-rays of the injury have been taken and will be shared with a grand jury.

My question was why would you need to provide x-rays if there were nothing to see. The medical report would have reported that there was no fracture. Most people cannot read an x-ray unless there is something to see. jmo

Because you can hire experts to say they see anything these days? Like I said- I am very cynical! LOL.
Actually so many other people are cynical that not having the x ray itself could be deemed by some as suspicious. I mean there are theories of colusion on both sides, so better to keep a very transparent paper trail.
ALL MOO.
 
  • #307
Wasn't there a mention of the GJ getting copies of the x-rays from Officer Wilson's visit to the hospital? Why would there be any significance in an x-ray that shows no damage when a report stating no fractures would be sufficient? Any one have any thoughts about this?

First, the term "x-ray" is colloquial. It's pretty much a given that all of the imaging done was digital. OW most definitely would have had a CT. A plain film view (AP/ lat) would be insufficient alone, to document the absence of injury, or to quantify the presence of the injury.

The images, along with the interpretation ("report") by the radiologist, will be presented to the GJ, along with photos taken in ED of the injuries, and the treating ED physician. All notes from that ED encounter will be available, and I'd bet my last dollar hat the docs who saw OW in ED, and the radiologist (if the GJ wants to hear from him/ her) will be able to be made available by subpoena to the GJ to testify. There is no way an image alone would be submitted to a GJ, without the physicians to interpret what is there, or not there, for the lay people on the GJ. The GJ will get EVERYTHING that is available from OW's ED visit, AND any follow up care he received. This was an on-the-job injury of a LEO involved in a fatal shooting of a suspect who had assaulted him-- rest assured that the medical end of things will be extremely well documented. There is a ton of medical info-- we don't have it, but it exists, and the GJ will get it.

EVEN if there is no "orbital blow out fracture."


My thoughts on this: I wonder if the x-rays were inconclusive if there was a fracture or not. And therefore, a CT scan was ordered which possibly showed a fracture? JMO.

The prosecutor is pressing for a charge, therefore he wants to show the x-rays to the GJ. IMO.

I would be curious to find out what the CT scan showed.

BBM. That kind of doesn't make sense, if OW is actually injured. The prosecutor is not on OW's "side" in this GJ situation-- the prosecutor is deliberating whether OW should have criminal charges pressed. Remember-- it's not MB that is being considered for prosecution, it's OW.

The diagnostic images are what they are-- they show what they show-- they are very objective evidence. The CT will not be inconclusive, IMO.

The prosecutor cannot withhold any diagnostic images to bolster his case, IMO, because it's been acknowledged by a whole lot of people, including the police chief, and attorneys for the Brown relatives, that there was an assault of the officer/ "serious encounter" at/ in the vehicle, that produced facial injuries, and OW was taken by his supervisor to the ED.

But again-- the absence of an orbital fracture means nothing, really. There still could be a globe injury to the eyeball itself, or the conjunctiva, soft tissue injury to the face/ eye, etc. Obviously, OW was ambulatory, and was never (AFAIK) admitted to an ICU or any inpatient unit. The absence of hospital admission also does not mean the injury was not legally serious, even if OW has a full recovery. It's the ASSAULT that is important-- that set off the chain of events that lead to MB's death, IMO. There's no requirement that someone has to have facial fractures, or be knocked unconscious, or suffer a concussion, for the injury to be "severe enough". (Although very serious head injuries requiring surgery or ICU care, or permanently altered function, are demonstrably easier to categorize as "severe".)

I think the pictures (and there will be more pictures than the ones taken in ED; there will be pics taken of his injuries on subsequent days, IMO) and the records, and the images, and the testimony of the medical personnel, is going to be very persuasive that OW was assaulted. IMO. It's not rocket science. And IMO, it will be very easy to distinguish between a shoved car door hitting OW in the face (the "ricochet theory" from the Brown attorneys), versus a blow from a hand/ fist.
 
  • #308
ETA BBM

Maybe we need a color coded thingie to indicate level of surety. :D

Seriously, there's probably more of a spectrum than hard line between "rumor" and "fact."

Rumors - any old Joe, bad source - avoid

Spurious claims - as in spin from lawyers (Eg, lying uncovered for hours)

Leaks from officials - get fuzzy. Depends on both the numbers and reliability of the sources and how they fit or conflict with known facts.
Public statements from officials - I take as facts within context.

Public releases of reports, test results, forensics... Fact.

All just my tentative opinion of dubious practical value. I'm too tired to commit to anything after all these hours posting. :dizzy:

:offtobed:
Sent via Tapatalk for S4

:dizzy: as well!

You hit the nail on the head-
 
  • #309
The only opinion I have is that a lot of people seem to believe some bullets flew towards MB's back as he was fleeing. And that is seeing it outraged people- and the whole reason for the protests is that many people feel it is morally wrong to shoot a person who is unarmed and fleeing. Many people-like myself- remember a time when that was not okay. This info we will probably find out and it'll be the cause of some interesting discussion on current laws.

The scuffle/ tussle in the car? - I have no idea. I have seen and heard of some many ugly, foolish little "scuffles" in my life that started in the stupidest ways that made no sense at all, that trying to put logic on it seems silly to me. Can't even hazard a guess, and it strikes me as odd (and interesting) when people visualize complicated detailed scenarios about it, because my mind doesn't work that way. My only guess is, we may never know with certainty. I think there may not be any reliable witnesses, or at least anyone who does not have a vested interest in the outcome enough for many of us to trust.
I'd been thinking about that- and wondering how much can be deduced from forensics.

Your turn- if you are set in stone convinced, why do you continue to come here? That is hard for me to understand, because once I am certain, I am on to the next thing. Different strokes, eh?

All, obviously MOO.

First, how was Wilson to know Brown was unarmed?

Second, "foolish little skuffles" is insulting and a complete mischaraterization of known facts.

Third, I'm certain officer Wilson did NOT slam his face into Browns fist.

Forth, I keep coming because everyday new information is available and posted.


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  • #310
  • #311
Yep, we do not know about the fracture, there are only "believers" with opinions, IMHO.
I'm soo very cynical, anything less than plain "accurate" or "100 accurate"means that they already know there are details that are off, IMHO. Not good enough for me! YMMV.

But what difference does it make if it was fractured or not fractured? If there were injuries, sufficient to make the ER doc give him an -ray, then he was obviously assaulted. So who cares if it was or wasnt fractured? The only reaL QUESTION IS---WAS HE ASSAULTED?
 
  • #312
But what difference does it make if it was fractured or not fractured? If there were injuries, sufficient to make the ER doc give him an -ray, then he was obviously assaulted. So who cares if it was or wasnt fractured? The only reaL QUESTION IS---WAS HE ASSAULTED?

Bingo!

And the answer is YES, and it's a FACT.




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  • #313
But what difference does it make if it was fractured or not fractured? If there were injuries, sufficient to make the ER doc give him an -ray, then he was obviously assaulted. So who cares if it was or wasnt fractured? The only reaL QUESTION IS---WAS HE ASSAULTED?

I do not know- I was not one of the persons here mistakenly referring to the fracture as a "fact". I was just using it as an example of how much we do not know.
MOO
 
  • #314
Because you can hire experts to say they see anything these days? Like I said- I am very cynical! LOL.
Actually so many other people are cynical that not having the x ray itself could be deemed by some as suspicious. I mean there are theories of colusion on both sides, so better to keep a very transparent paper trail.
ALL MOO.

Wait-- the GJ is a one sided presentation by the PROSECUTOR. The treating physicians, radiologist, etc are not "expert witnesses" in this context. They are WITNESSES. The medical record of OW is EVIDENCE. OW will not have an opportunity before the GJ to present "expert witnesses" for his defense, because this is one sided.

The CT itself will be dozens of images, digital slices thru the head. We're not talking about just "one" image here.
 
  • #315
But what difference does it make if it was fractured or not fractured? If there were injuries, sufficient to make the ER doc give him an -ray, then he was obviously assaulted. So who cares if it was or wasnt fractured? The only reaL QUESTION IS---WAS HE ASSAULTED?

Yes, yes, yes! Ding Ding Ding! Its the ASSAULT, not the extent of the injuries.
 
  • #316
First, how was Wilson to know Brown was unarmed?

Second, "foolish little skuffles" is insulting and a complete mischaraterization of known facts.

Third, I'm certain officer Wilson did NOT slam his face into Browns fist.

Forth, I keep coming because everyday new information is available and posted.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There are no known facts about the scuffle yet- and I mispoke and was trying to say scuffles caused by foolish reasons. Very foolish you'd never guess why reasons. Logic rarely applies when some tempers flare. MOO.
Great that you are so certain, but please respect that others here will not be until they see genuine evidence. It's really just that simple.
ALL MOO.
 
  • #317
The only opinion I have is that a lot of people seem to believe some bullets flew towards MB's back as he was fleeing. And that is seeing it outraged people- and the whole reason for the protests is that many people feel it is morally wrong to shoot a person who is unarmed and fleeing. Many people-like myself- remember a time when that was not okay. This info we will probably find out and it'll be the cause of some interesting discussion on current laws.

The scuffle/ tussle in the car? - I have no idea. I have seen and heard of some many ugly, foolish little "scuffles" in my life that started in the stupidest ways that made no sense at all, that trying to put logic on it seems silly to me. Can't even hazard a guess, and it strikes me as odd (and interesting) when people visualize complicated detailed scenarios about it, because my mind doesn't work that way. My only guess is, we may never know with certainty. I think there may not be any reliable witnesses, or at least anyone who does not have a vested interest in the outcome enough for many of us to trust.
I'd been thinking about that- and wondering how much can be deduced from forensics.

Your turn- if you are set in stone convinced, why do you continue to come here? That is hard for me to understand, because once I am certain, I am on to the next thing. Different strokes, eh?

All, obviously MOO.

You avoided the question.

It was . . .what do you think happened with what we have so far?

Not what you believe some people believe they saw, or the justifications others might feel for the rioting and looting. Im sorry you find logic silly, but classifying a life or death fight where a firearm is discharged into a fairly well traveled street with several multi-unit apartments within range is hardly a foolish little scuffle.

Sooo. . .what do you think happened?
 
  • #318
Now what was it that gram use to say: "They are waiting for the dust to settle." That is exactly my gut feeling. Let them cool their jets. If I were on the GJ and I was fearful for my safety if we came back with a "no bill" I'd beg the judge for the maximum time available to release the information to the public. Hey, I could be wrong but that is the feeling I'm getting. The GJ has no other cases but this one. How much more information do they need when their decision comes down to the law and what OW's perception was at the time he shot MB? JMO

:floorlaugh: True. I keep letting gram down!

Thanks, LambChop. ;) I promise to go to bed repeating the lessons of patience and wisdom.

Tonight's prayer mantra: "Let the dust settle, so it'll all come out clean in the wash."

"Let the dust settle, so it'll all come out clean in the wash."

Ok, I'm ready. Goodnight all!
 
  • #319
As far as I know, we are not. Did the rules change since this thread started? Serious question.

Officially, I doubt the rules have changed. Off the record, I never understood why some continually require it, seems like something to say when one cannot argue a point with logic or reason. IMO, of course!

An example, I feel like I can pretty much discredit Crenshaw completely. It's not my opinion, it's my logical conclusion. Someone can call me on not including IMO, some can say I dismiss her because she doesn't support Wilson, some can say it's because she's black. Doing any of those three tells me that person cannot argue against my reasoning, they can only attempt to marginalize or discredit me. What would be nice is to avoid board tactics and have someone explain why they give her any benefit of the doubt in the face of the myriad reasons she's not credible. Same with Mitchell, same with Johnson. I'd say same with landscapers, but they are white. IF they were in the position we saw in the video, they could not see 3/4 of the action, I think that is assumed to be a fact. And I don't know whether they support or hinder Wilson at this point.
 
  • #320
Ahem.... you're forgetting one tiny little but very important fact: a jury gets to interpret only if the GJ determines that there is probably cause to indict and returns true bill. I hope you're not suggesting that the GJ should be disbanded and OW arrested and charged without an indictment!

The fact is, not a single one of the alleged witnesses is an expert in the legal justification for self-defense, or the very real dangers facing police officers, or the duties, right and obligations of police officers. They do not get to decide whether or not OW had a legally justifiable reason to shoot MB, and they are not qualified to determine if MB was a threat to OW, or whether MB was surrendering to OW or charging OW. The best thing they could do, as witnesses, would be to drop the politically charged interpretations of what they saw, and simply report what they saw.

But the grand jury are most likely not experts in these matters either, yet you consider it OK for THEM to decide whether the shooting was justifiable, and whether charges should be brought. What's the difference, other than THESE ordinary folks are called a "grand jury"? The members of the grand jury have no unique qualifications, in fact they haven't even been screened for bias - that is why the grand jury process bothers me.
 
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