MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #19

[Oceans]

Respectfully sniped...

BBM. That kind of doesn't make sense, if OW is actually injured. The prosecutor is not on OW's "side" in this GJ situation-- the prosecutor is deliberating whether OW should have criminal charges pressed. Remember-- it's not MB that is being considered for prosecution, it's OW.

The diagnostic images are what they are-- they show what they show-- they are very objective evidence. The CT will not be inconclusive, IMO.

The prosecutor cannot withhold any diagnostic images to bolster his case, IMO, because it's been acknowledged by a whole lot of people, including the police chief, and attorneys for the Brown relatives, that there was an assault of the officer/ "serious encounter" at/ in the vehicle, that produced facial injuries, and OW was taken by his supervisor to the ED.

But again-- the absence of an orbital fracture means nothing, really. There still could be a globe injury to the eyeball itself, or the conjunctiva, soft tissue injury to the face/ eye, etc. Obviously, OW was ambulatory, and was never (AFAIK) admitted to an ICU or any inpatient unit. The absence of hospital admission also does not mean the injury was not legally serious, even if OW has a full recovery. It's the ASSAULT that is important-- that set off the chain of events that lead to MB's death, IMO. There's no requirement that someone has to have facial fractures, or be knocked unconscious, or suffer a concussion, for the injury to be "severe enough". (Although very serious head injuries requiring surgery or ICU care, or permanently altered function, are demonstrably easier to categorize as "severe".)

I think the pictures (and there will be more pictures than the ones taken in ED; there will be pics taken of his injuries on subsequent days, IMO) and the records, and the images, and the testimony of the medical personnel, is going to be very persuasive that OW was assaulted. IMO. It's not rocket science. And IMO, it will be very easy to distinguish between a shoved car door hitting OW in the face (the "ricochet theory" from the Brown attorneys), versus a blow from a hand/ fist.

My thinking was: IF the x-ray does not show a fracture, then it would support the prosecutor's argument for a charge.

I'm just speculating here.

 

[K_Z]

David Carson ‏@PDPJ 1m
Grand jury now has until January to decide whether to charge Ferguson officer: http://bit.ly/1wxGKvy via @STLtoday

I take this to mean that the Special Session and commission of these GJ members has been EXTENDED again until January 2015. I don't think that this means that the GJ will not deliver their decision until January-- only that they could. They could deliver their decision in the next few weeks, also. Since the term of these GJ members expired first week of Sept, they had to be extended in Special Session to continue. I think this is a routine second extension of their term of service, due to the nature of this case. (They have to be paid the authorized measly pittance for their service, etc.)

So my interpretation of this tweet is not necessarily that the investigation and presentation of evidence to the GJ will "have to" go until January, only that the terms of the GJ members have been extended a second time to cover that time period.

Personally, I think we are going to have an answer from them before Thanksgiving.

 

[K_Z]

My thinking was: IF the x-ray does not show a fracture, then it would support the prosecutor's argument for a charge.

I'm just speculating here.

Ah, now I understand where you were coming from! But I don't agree. The absence of a fracture won't, by itself, equal, or even support charges, IMO. Presence or absence of a fracture isn't as important as the presence of the assault. And that will be documented in a lot of different ways in the medical record.

 

[CHERIE.T]

First, how was Wilson to know Brown was unarmed?

Second, "foolish little skuffles" is insulting and a complete mischaraterization of known facts.

Third, I'm certain officer Wilson did NOT slam his face into Browns fist.

Forth, I keep coming because everyday new information is available and posted.


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:happydance: thank you

 

[Linda7NJ]

There are no known facts about the scuffle yet- and I mispoke and was trying to say scuffles caused by foolish reasons. Very foolish you'd never guess why reasons. Logic rarely applies when some tempers flare. MOO.
Great that you are so certain, but please respect that others here will not be until they see genuine evidence. It's really just that simple.
ALL MOO.

The Brown family attorney is on record stating it was a serious altercation, more than a scuffle. That's why Brown defenders need to separate the assault and subsequent shooting.

I don't care how it started.

I know no police officer would grab a 300 pound 6'4" man by the throat while he's seated in a vehicle.

You serious consider Wilson slamming his face into Browns fist?

How was Wilson to know Brown was unarmed?



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[katydid23]

My thoughts on this: I wonder if the x-rays were inconclusive if there was a fracture or not. And therefore, a CT scan was ordered which possibly showed a fracture? JMO.

The prosecutor is pressing for a charge, therefore he wants to show the x-rays to the GJ. IMO.

I would be curious to find out what the CT scan showed.

I am not sure that this prosecutor is pressing for a charge. I am not sure he thinks it deserves to be charged in this case. jmo

 

[K_Z]

I am not sure that this prosecutor is pressing for a charge. I am not sure he thinks it deserves to be charged in this case. jmo

I completely agree with that. And he has seen ALL the evidence. All of it. And that's why, IMO, he will gladly throw ALL the evidence out to the GJ, and then out to the public, IMO. The time is just not yet here for the "other" side of this story to be told publicly. IMO.

 

[Oceans]

Ah, now I understand where you were coming from! But I don't agree. The absence of a fracture won't, by itself, equal, or even support charges, IMO. Presence or absence of a fracture isn't as important as the fact of the assault. And that will be documented in a lot of different ways in the medical record.

Oh, I agree!

I was just trying to put myself into the prosecutor's shoes and how he might argue.

I believe there is a strong possibility that there is a fracture. And as you say, the assault and the swollen face speak for themselves. JMO.

 

[Truthy]

You avoided the question.

It was . . .what do you think happened with what we have so far?

Not what you believe some people believe they saw, or the justifications others might feel for the rioting and looting. Im sorry you find logic silly, but classifying a life or death fight where a firearm is discharged into a fairly well traveled street with several multi-unit apartments within range is hardly a foolish little scuffle.

Sooo. . .what do you think happened?

I said nothing about justifying riots or looting. Please do not misrepresent what I said.



I answered in full.
I do not jump to conclusions based on little more than what I consider to be gossip and no physical evidence and no reports at all, but feel free to do so yourself.
Tempers flared and why or who touched who first- I will likely never comfortably know the truth. To me, that is more interesting. But I have no need to tie a bow on the whole thing right now. (I also hate going to the movies when you know how it will end. - just the way my brain works)
It is as simple as that. YMMV. MOO.

 

[katydid23]

BBM, it is what we do

As to your last point, IA, add in the struggle for the gun, and I think it's fair to say its a scenario that represents a major threat. Not only to the officer involved, but also to the public at large.

For me, some of the strongest indicators about what really happened are the result of Parks' statements coupled with what he avoids, or attempts to dismiss. Lawyers for the family aren't going to admit to anything that goes against their narrative unless they have to. There's no way in my mind that Parks makes such admissions otherwise. he's fully aware of what DJs OFFICIAL statements were to investigators/FBI.

They want the focus to stay on "hands up, don't shoot," while attempting to diminish all other aspects of the entire incident as irrelevant. Yet they're not. The robbery is relevant, the assault is relevant, the struggle for the gun is relevant, and the fact that MB was advancing toward OW is very, very, very, very relevant.

MB could have been moving toward OW while mimicking "the itsy bitsy spider." It doesn't matter, it's his advancement toward OW that is the critical issue, especially if the account indicating OW was backing up is accurate.

:moo:

BBM

Very good point. The fact that Crump and Parks have admitted there was a 'serious tussle' says to me that they know there is PROOF of that tussle already. That tells me they know there is some kind of credible witness testimony and/or forensics to corroborate that struggle over the gun and the punches to the head and face.

Otherwise, they could just make it a 'he said vs he said ' situation and rely upon Dorian as the back up testimony. They could have just stayed with DJ's original version, that OW suddenly reached out of the vehicle, grabbed MB by the neck with one hand, tried to pull him into the window, then pulled his gun with the other hand, said "Ima shoot you, boy' and began firing. For no reason. The only reason Parks got off that story was they knew the evidence would blow that theory apart. jmo

 

[K_Z]

I said nothing about justifying riots or looting. Please do not misrepresent what I said.



I answered in full.
I do not jump to conclusions based on little more than what I consider to be gossip and no physical evidence and no reports at all, but feel free to do so yourself.
Tempers flared and why or who touched who first- I will likely never comfortably know the truth. To me, that is more interesting. But I have no need to tie a bow on the whole thing right now. I hate going to the movies when you know how it will end.
It is as simple as that. YMMV. MOO.

So, is it ever legally "okay" for a citizen to "struggle" with a uniformed police officer, in his patrol vehicle, through the open window? Even if "tempers are flaring"?

 

[katydid23]

Now what was it that gram use to say: "They are waiting for the dust to settle." That is exactly my gut feeling. Let them cool their jets. If I were on the GJ and I was fearful for my safety if we came back with a "no bill" I'd beg the judge for the maximum time available to release the information to the public. Hey, I could be wrong but that is the feeling I'm getting. The GJ has no other cases but this one. How much more information do they need when their decision comes down to the law and what OW's perception was at the time he shot MB? JMO

Some are probably waiting for their houses to sell and their new mortgages to go through.

 

[Truthy]

The Brown family attorney is on record stating it was a serious altercation, more than a scuffle. That's why Brown defenders need to separate the assault and subsequent shooting.

I don't care how it started.

I know no police officer would grab a 300 pound 6'4" man by the throat while he's seated in a vehicle.

You serious consider Wilson slamming his face into Browns fist?

How was Wilson to know Brown was unarmed?



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I have seen more fights start for incredibly stupid reasons- no reasons at all- to ever imagine there is logic to the why. Often it's just being in a bad mood. Is that clearer?

"I know no police officer would grab a 300 pound 6'4" man by the throat while he's seated in a vehicle. " I guess my brother being a NYPD PBA delegate for 30 years has made me very cynical. I have heard of cops doing much crazier stuff than that.

"You serious consider Wilson slamming his face into Browns fist?" Nope- never said me "serious consider" that.

"How was Wilson to know Brown was unarmed?" Is the standard now that all cops should imagine all citizens are armed? Wow, I am so glad I live in NYC, where this is not the assumption.

 

[K_Z]

I have seen more fights start for incredibly stupid reasons- no reasons at all- to ever imagine there is logic to the why. Often it's just being in a bad mood. Is that clearer?

"I know no police officer would grab a 300 pound 6'4" man by the throat while he's seated in a vehicle. " I guess my brother being a NYPD PBA delegate for 30 years has made me very cynical. I have heard of cops doing much crazier stuff than that.

"You serious consider Wilson slamming his face into Browns fist?" Nope- never said me "serious consider" that.

"How was Wilson to know Brown was unarmed?" Is the standard now that all cops should imagine all citizens are armed? Wow, I am so glad I live in NYC, where this is not the assumption.

BBM. Officer Darren Wilson and Michael Brown were not citizen equals in that encounter. This is not the same as two young men in a bar brawl. The law makes that QUITE clear. This is not about 2 young hotheads posturing and punching, fueled by beer and testosterone. They were NOT equals in that encounter. Officer Wilson is a sworn, uniformed, on duty, peace officer. Officer Wilson was not "picking a fight" when he encountered MB and DJ walking in the middle of the street, as he was diverted from a sick call.

 

[katydid23]

OKay, so let me try and figure out who touched who first? What was MB doing 15 minutes prior to the incident? OW was trying to help a family whose 2 month old was having breathing problems. I don't think OW was acting aggressively or belligerently in that time period. What was MB doing? Oh yeah, assaulting a little old shop owner and stealing blunt wraps, then walking home down the middle of the street, carrying the stolen wraps proudly, while refusing OW's directives to step onto the sidewalk. MB says we will get out of the road when we feel like it.

So which one of these two was the aggressor, judging from the previous 20 minutes behavior patterns?

Which story makes more sense? Dorians? Does it make sense that OW leaves the sick call, and 2 minutes later pulls up on the 2 and decides to try and pull a 300 lb man into his lap through the car window?

Or does Josies version sound more truthful? That OW stepped out of the car and MB rushed him and shoved him back in, like a linebacker?

I think I know which one I believe. Which one do you believe, only with what you know so far.

 

[Truthy]

So, is it ever legally "okay" for a citizen to "struggle" with a uniformed police officer, in his patrol vehicle, through the open window? Even if "tempers are flaring"?

I have said again and again, I will likely never feel I "know" the exact sequence of events that happened through the window or inside the car. Is it so hard to understand I think both OW and the kid closest to it will both twist it a bit to be self serving? I am cynical- and also- done with being grilled on this point.

MOO

 

[K_Z]

And if I were patrolling in a crime ridden, gang infested neighborhood, YES, I would ASSUME all citizens are armed, until proven otherwise! But that's just me.

 

[Linda7NJ]

And if I were patrolling in a crime ridden, gang infested neighborhood, YES, I would ASSUME all citizens are armed, until proven otherwise! But that's just me.

Especially, if you hoped to live to go home every night!




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[hambirg]

I said nothing about justifying riots or looting. Please do not misrepresent what I said.



I answered in full.
I do not jump to conclusions based on little more than what I consider to be gossip and no physical evidence and no reports at all, but feel free to do so yourself.
Tempers flared and why or who touched who first- I will likely never comfortably know the truth. To me, that is more interesting. But I have no need to tie a bow on the whole thing right now. I hate going to the movies when you know how it will end.
It is as simple as that. YMMV. MOO.

BBM

So you do have some opinions. I highlighted them.

Other than those, you are unable or unwilling to draw any logical conclusions as to whether OW believed that MB was a threat to himself or others?

Thanks.

 

[katydid23]

I have seen more fights start for incredibly stupid reasons- no reasons at all- to ever imagine there is logic to the why. Often it's just being in a bad mood. Is that clearer?

"I know no police officer would grab a 300 pound 6'4" man by the throat while he's seated in a vehicle. " I guess my brother being a NYPD PBA delegate for 30 years has made me very cynical. I have heard of cops doing much crazier stuff than that.

"You serious consider Wilson slamming his face into Browns fist?" Nope- never said me "serious consider" that.

"How was Wilson to know Brown was unarmed?" Is the standard now that all cops should imagine all citizens are armed? Wow, I am so glad I live in NYC, where this is not the assumption.

This was not a 'fight' over silly stuff. The officer was stopping to ask why they refused to get out of the road. That is not a 'fight.' Unless you are incredibly explosive and stupid, and decide to attack a cop.