MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #19

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  • #441
Yepp. There is not much about this case that hasn't sickened me. I'm not specifically referencing posts here, but just things I see/read in the bigger picture that just sicken me:

A police officer telling a kid to move from the street when no cop in west county would have given it 2 thoughts.
People throwing molatov (sp?) cocktails.
Burning/looting/rioting.
Police looking like they're equipped for WW3.
Blind support for MB.
Blind support for OW.
Bringing in individuals like Sharpton/Crump that only speak in terms of race.
The racism, some overt and some subtle, expressed by supporters of OW.
Social media and no names on the internet driving the course of discussion (Anonymous/CJ).

I'm sure the list can go on and on, but it all makes me question if we are advancing one bit as a society.

BBM

Put it in context. There was going to be an ambulance with a sick baby following shortly behind. I would expect a police officer to ask two men walking in the middle of the street to move to the sidewalk. I don't find that odd at all.
 
  • #442
Someone remind me again why we care about any juvenile records either way? If they don't amount to what would have been an A or B felony, who really cares? Other than those who just want more ammo to bash MB. Will it play any role what so ever beyond that?

IMHO it matters because it may show his 1) lack of respect for authority, 2) propensity for violence, 3) possible gang affiliation . . . I'm in agreement due to the wording of the Court, there is a juvenile record of convictions which are not Felony A or B

IMHO the video at Ferguson Mkt shows at least 2 of the above -- and the altercation at the SUV solidifies it for me :)

no bashing MB -- he "bashed" himself 10 mins earlier & possibly in the past (hence the criminal record)
 
  • #443
  • #444
I disagree. Why wouldn't a cop tell 2 people walking down the center of a main thoroughfare to get out of the street? It's dangerous for them as well as drivers trying to pass. What's not normal about that situation is that the directive was ignored.

I agree. It's been covered that these men were obstructing traffic. In fact one or both police chiefs stated that.
 
  • #445
Why? The council isn't investigating it; the grand jury & StL County police are. There really is a fundamental lack of information regarding facts and how things work there, IMO.

I have a feeling this will become a private mtg as the County has many other fish to fry so to speak; County Jail is right there in Clayton but I think it is full to capacity right now
 
  • #446
IMHO it matters because it may show his 1) lack of respect for authority, 2) propensity for violence, 3) possible gang affiliation . . . I'm in agreement due to the wording of the Court, there is a juvenile record of convictions which are not Felony A or B

IMHO the video at Ferguson Mkt shows at least 2 of the above -- and the altercation at the SUV solidifies it for me :)

no bashing MB -- he "bashed" himself 10 mins earlier & possibly in the past (hence the criminal record)

The robbery 10 minutes before is relevant. It shows his frame of mind at the time. I've always said that. The other stuff...irrelevant. If it comes out, it comes out and I'll read it with interest but also understand it has little bearing on this case.

So what do you think it means if OW used the "n" word 2 years ago? Do you think that that will help determine that the shooting was racially motivated?
 
  • #447
Excellent point. Every source on both sides so far has carried an agenda. Right now: choosing which one to want to believe or fits the version of events they see. Nothing wrong with that, but with all the conflicting testimony out there and suspect sources (on both sides), none of us have the slightest idea what will happen.

Both sides have tried every which way to twist this case in the press that it is sickening.

Please provide a link to the twisting from law enforcements "side"


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  • #448
Yepp. There is not much about this case that hasn't sickened me. I'm not specifically referencing posts here, but just things I see/read in the bigger picture that just sicken me:

A police officer telling a kid to move from the street when no cop in west county would have given it 2 thoughts.
People throwing molatov (sp?) cocktails.
Burning/looting/rioting.
Police looking like they're equipped for WW3.
Blind support for MB.
Blind support for OW.
Bringing in individuals like Sharpton/Crump that only speak in terms of race.
The racism, some overt and some subtle, expressed by supporters of OW.
Social media and no names on the internet driving the course of discussion (Anonymous/CJ).

I'm sure the list can go on and on, but it all makes me question if we are advancing one bit as a society.

wow !!!

#1 have you ever lived in StL County? I have! Absolutely if a County officer saw you walking in the middle of the street (or biking/rollerblading/skate boarding), he/she would ask why & please use the sidewalk, if available or move it to the side of the road; especially if there was an ambulance on its way. Many bikers have been getting hit/killed this summer

#2 LE looking like they're equipped for WW3 - I believe the Fed Gov't is re-thinking giving communities surplus military support/vehicles; however, I believe LE should be able to protect themselves & sometimes an armored vehicle is essential (see University City MO)

#3 I don't think there's much "blind support" for either ODW or MB; it's well thought out & influenced by one's own values & beliefs

#4 One thing I can say about Rev Al is he's been calling for peaceful protesting & has not promoted looting/rioting

#5 Social media is here to stay & drives much of the "racism" poisoning this World; I agree & question if we're advancing as a society or realize we're the most endangered species on this Planet

I would have to add to "The racism, some overt and some subtle, expressed by supporters of OW." to extend to MB supporters & some witnesses, too; unless racism only goes one way which I do not subscribe
 
  • #449
http://www.stlamerican.com/news/community_news/article_f41bc1ca-61e9-5aed-bf02-8449fd20d3f1.html

"On August 22, 2009 all of this changed for Burgess. This is the day over 90 volunteers from the district’s Reach Out to Dropouts program visited the homes of students who had either dropped out of school or were at risk of dropping out. They spoke with the students and their parents, encouraging their completion of a high school diploma. A spark was ignited. Shortly after Burgess spoke with Reach Out to Dropouts volunteers, he returned to school and enrolled in the district’s Positive Alternative Learning (PAL) Center. There he began taking classes and completing coursework through NovaNet, an internet-based credit recovery program, with support from PAL Center teachers and administrators and his mom, Lisa Brooks. Recently, Burgess walked into Normandy High School’s Viking Hall as a member of the Class of 2010 and walked out with his high school diploma in hand."

Just trying to connect dots:
1) NYT reported MB changed high schools 4 times, spending "most of his last two years at Normandy HS" where he "graduated" this summer.
2) MB had attended and left 3 other schools before the unaccredited NHS, indicating he had problems of some kind with admins/teachers/students/or coursework.
3) By the end of 10th grade or early 11th, MB was likely deemed a drop-out risk imo.
4) Reach-out-to-Dropouts volunteers may have visited and talked with Ms. McSpadden about moving MB to the PAL Center, which she did.
5) MB technically graduated from the horrible, unaccredited Normandy HS, but didn't attend there, except perhaps for the final short summer session. imo

There was a reason that Crump Inc would like to keep hidden imo for why MB changed school 4 times, and likely finished via an "internet based" program that kept him away from regular classes with other students/teachers. JMO though.


 
  • #450
Yeah, we have a divergence of opinion on that and that's fine.

Canfield was NOT a main thoroughfare though. It might be considered a main thoroughfare to some from smaller communities I guess, but to me a main thoroughfare here in St. Louis is Olive or Manchester or Lindbergh or 141 or the like. Not some small street that is bounded by residential living on either side.

it was one of 2 outlets to main thoroughfares for the sick infant case to get out of the area - Canfield Dr goes out to W Florissant Ave

and it does have a yellow line in the middle of it -- not a side street by any means
 
  • #451
Nothing is free, and when "services" are added they have to be paid for.

very necessary though unlike a new stadium for the Lambs, I mean Rams . . . or public transportation out in the County :)
 
  • #452
Yepp. There is not much about this case that hasn't sickened me. I'm not specifically referencing posts here, but just things I see/read in the bigger picture that just sicken me:

A police officer telling a kid to move from the street when no cop in west county would have given it 2 thoughts.
People throwing molatov (sp?) cocktails.
Burning/looting/rioting.
Police looking like they're equipped for WW3.
Blind support for MB.
Blind support for OW.
Bringing in individuals like Sharpton/Crump that only speak in terms of race.
The racism, some overt and some subtle, expressed by supporters of OW.
Social media and no names on the internet driving the course of discussion (Anonymous/CJ).

I'm sure the list can go on and on, but it all makes me question if we are advancing one bit as a society.

Where I live, people do not walk down the middle of the street. It's dangerous. I would expect law enforcement to approach them out of safety concerns. I would hope the officer would check to add if the person/persons were intoxicated or otherwise impaired.

Equipped for WW3? I would hope the shock and awe would bring the criminal element to their senses. But no, the criminals hid amongst the peaceful protestors, making it a dangerous situation for everyone. I'm glad LE was there in full force & complete with riot gear. IMO it would have been far worse and dangerous had they not have been there.
If the crowd dispersed as instructed....it could have remained an uneventful and peaceful protest.

How should have it been handled?

How do Crump and Sharpton get involved? It appears to me they pop up like a wart.

The racism is very troublesome to me. Where I come from, for the most part the divide exists between law enforcement and the criminal element.
Frankly, I'm more than a little shocked by the racial divide in this particular case. I suppose I shouldn't be.

IMO


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  • #453
very necessary though unlike a new stadium for the Lambs, I mean Rams . . . or public transportation out in the County :)

oh IA its necessary. i just have to shake my head when something is "demanded" and then outrage ensues when the price tag is revealed.
 
  • #454
wow !!!

#1 have you ever lived in StL County? I have! Absolutely if a County officer saw you walking in the middle of the street (or biking/rollerblading/skate boarding), he/she would ask why & please use the sidewalk, if available or move it to the side of the road; especially if there was an ambulance on its way. Many bikers have been getting hit/killed this summer

#2 LE looking like they're equipped for WW3 - I believe the Fed Gov't is re-thinking giving communities surplus military support/vehicles; however, I believe LE should be able to protect themselves & sometimes an armored vehicle is essential (see University City MO)

#3 I don't think there's much "blind support" for either ODW or MB; it's well thought out & influenced by one's own values & beliefs

#4 One thing I can say about Rev Al is he's been calling for peaceful protesting & has not promoted looting/rioting

#5 Social media is here to stay & drives much of the "racism" poisoning this World; I agree & question if we're advancing as a society or realize we're the most endangered species on this Planet

I would have to add to "The racism, some overt and some subtle, expressed by supporters of OW." to extend to MB supporters & some witnesses, too; unless racism only goes one way which I do not subscribe

#1 Only for 45 years. And just as recently as yesterday was playing basketball in the street with the son when a cop drove by. We moved to the side for him to pass, waved to him and he never said a word about getting out of the road. Son's soccer teams...probably 60+ kids run down the road, some on sidewalk, some on the street. Never told to get out of the road. Hell, even had a car carrier stop in the middle of Manchester Road to off load cars the other day. And no, they're not allowed to do so. I was waiting to pull out because traffic was backed up. Saw 2 County cops drive by them and one municipal cop drive by. Didn't give it 2 thoughts. Not sure what part of town you live in (think you said the City - where I wouldn't be surprised if it's different). As for the bikers - I think they're actually lawfully permitted on the roads, at least out here. They are NEVER on the sidewalk.

#2 We'll agree to disagree on exactly what toys a PD needs.

#3 Certainly some people like that but how do you account for those who say it wasn't MB in the video? How do you account for those that say one less "n" is a good start?

#4 His words and actions are 2 different things. He has said that but yet continued to schedule the earlier protests such that they'd end right at dark, giving a jumping off point for the rioters. He could have had the same peaceful protests ending at 3:00. Even beyond that, he changed the issue at hand for many from an issue of police brutality or abuse of power and turned it into one of race.

#5 Yepp. It's not going anywhere. Has it's upsides but the downsides are just so highlighted in a case like this.
 
  • #455
#1 Only for 45 years. And just as recently as yesterday was playing basketball in the street with the son when a cop drove by. We moved to the side for him to pass, waved to him and he never said a word about getting out of the road. Son's soccer teams...probably 60+ kids run down the road, some on sidewalk, some on the street. Never told to get out of the road. Hell, even had a car carrier stop in the middle of Manchester Road to off load cars the other day. And no, they're not allowed to do so. I was waiting to pull out because traffic was backed up. Saw 2 County cops drive by them and one municipal cop drive by. Didn't give it 2 thoughts. Not sure what part of town you live in (think you said the City - where I wouldn't be surprised if it's different). As for the bikers - I think they're actually lawfully permitted on the roads, at least out here. They are NEVER on the sidewalk.

#2 We'll agree to disagree on exactly what toys a PD needs.

#3 Certainly some people like that but how do you account for those who say it wasn't MB in the video? How do you account for those that say one less "n" is a good start?

#4 His words and actions are 2 different things. He has said that but yet continued to schedule the earlier protests such that they'd end right at dark, giving a jumping off point for the rioters. He could have had the same peaceful protests ending at 3:00. Even beyond that, he changed the issue at hand for many from an issue of police brutality or abuse of power and turned it into one of race.

#5 Yepp. It's not going anywhere. Has it's upsides but the downsides are just so highlighted in a case like this.

I couldn't read past the "toys" comment ....feared my head exploding. I'll try later.....


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  • #456
#1 Only for 45 years. And just as recently as yesterday was playing basketball in the street with the son when a cop drove by. We moved to the side for him to pass, waved to him and he never said a word about getting out of the road. Son's soccer teams...probably 60+ kids run down the road, some on sidewalk, some on the street. Never told to get out of the road. Hell, even had a car carrier stop in the middle of Manchester Road to off load cars the other day. And no, they're not allowed to do so. I was waiting to pull out because traffic was backed up. Saw 2 County cops drive by them and one municipal cop drive by. Didn't give it 2 thoughts. Not sure what part of town you live in (think you said the City - where I wouldn't be surprised if it's different). As for the bikers - I think they're actually lawfully permitted on the roads, at least out here. They are NEVER on the sidewalk.

#2 We'll agree to disagree on exactly what toys a PD needs.

#3 Certainly some people like that but how do you account for those who say it wasn't MB in the video? How do you account for those that say one less "n" is a good start?

#4 His words and actions are 2 different things. He has said that but yet continued to schedule the earlier protests such that they'd end right at dark, giving a jumping off point for the rioters. He could have had the same peaceful protests ending at 3:00. Even beyond that, he changed the issue at hand for many from an issue of police brutality or abuse of power and turned it into one of race.

#5 Yepp. It's not going anywhere. Has it's upsides but the downsides are just so highlighted in a case like this.

Thanks for your response! So good to see another local

Lived in Chesterfield/Wildwood for 6 years but in the City for >5 yrs total & I agree that in some residential areas' main streets are used for recreational purposes but Manchester? I can only imagine where you live since it goes on for miles & miles

Um, Dorian said it was MB (and himself) robbing Ferguson Mkt & that's enough for me . . . and the "N" word, really? It's another word that has lost it's meaning IMHO

I cannot account for someone's racist thinking/comments -- just am thankful my parents, grandparents & Village taught me otherwise

Praying for peace in StL metro
 
  • #457
#1 Only for 45 years. And just as recently as yesterday was playing basketball in the street with the son when a cop drove by. We moved to the side for him to pass, waved to him and he never said a word about getting out of the road. Son's soccer teams...probably 60+ kids run down the road, some on sidewalk, some on the street. Never told to get out of the road. Hell, even had a car carrier stop in the middle of Manchester Road to off load cars the other day. And no, they're not allowed to do so. I was waiting to pull out because traffic was backed up. Saw 2 County cops drive by them and one municipal cop drive by. Didn't give it 2 thoughts. Not sure what part of town you live in (think you said the City - where I wouldn't be surprised if it's different). As for the bikers - I think they're actually lawfully permitted on the roads, at least out here. They are NEVER on the sidewalk.

#2 We'll agree to disagree on exactly what toys a PD needs.

#3 Certainly some people like that but how do you account for those who say it wasn't MB in the video? How do you account for those that say one less "n" is a good start?

#4 His words and actions are 2 different things. He has said that but yet continued to schedule the earlier protests such that they'd end right at dark, giving a jumping off point for the rioters. He could have had the same peaceful protests ending at 3:00. Even beyond that, he changed the issue at hand for many from an issue of police brutality or abuse of power and turned it into one of race.

#5 Yepp. It's not going anywhere. Has it's upsides but the downsides are just so highlighted in a case like this.

Have you driven on Canfield Dr in Ferguson? I have and trust me, it's busy - VERY busy.

I have since moved to West Co StL. I live in a residential subdivision. We have houses on either side of our yellow lined road with sidewalks and speed limit signs of 25 mph. In a span of 10 houses in the past 5 yrs, we've had 6 major accidents. 2 of those involved kids on bikes which one was very serious. No one walks in the street here.
 
  • #458
I thought bikers were in the street everywhere these days? I guess it matters less in suburbia where people are driving, but cities are generally becoming more bike friendly- and they ride in the streets.
 
  • #459
#1 Only for 45 years. And just as recently as yesterday was playing basketball in the street with the son when a cop drove by. We moved to the side for him to pass, waved to him and he never said a word about getting out of the road. Son's soccer teams...probably 60+ kids run down the road, some on sidewalk, some on the street. Never told to get out of the road. Hell, even had a car carrier stop in the middle of Manchester Road to off load cars the other day. And no, they're not allowed to do so. I was waiting to pull out because traffic was backed up. Saw 2 County cops drive by them and one municipal cop drive by. Didn't give it 2 thoughts. Not sure what part of town you live in (think you said the City - where I wouldn't be surprised if it's different). As for the bikers - I think they're actually lawfully permitted on the roads, at least out here. They are NEVER on the sidewalk.

#2 We'll agree to disagree on exactly what toys a PD needs.

#3 Certainly some people like that but how do you account for those who say it wasn't MB in the video? How do you account for those that say one less "n" is a good start?

#4 His words and actions are 2 different things. He has said that but yet continued to schedule the earlier protests such that they'd end right at dark, giving a jumping off point for the rioters. He could have had the same peaceful protests ending at 3:00. Even beyond that, he changed the issue at hand for many from an issue of police brutality or abuse of power and turned it into one of race.

#5 Yepp. It's not going anywhere. Has it's upsides but the downsides are just so highlighted in a case like this.

Regarding #1....you moved, so why would he have to ask you to? In the other situations, were any of the officers clearing for an ambulance? I'm not sure why it is difficult to understand that OW knew an ambulance was going to be moving through there shortly. I have seen LEOs clear roadways for emergency vehicles hundreds of times. It's not unusual.

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  • #460
I thought bikers were in the street everywhere these days? I guess it matters less in suburbia where people are driving, but cities are generally becoming more bike friendly- and they ride in the streets.

yeah, there are bike paths & bike lanes everywhere & when there's not, bikers are to share the road with vehicles . . .
 
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