MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #2

[liljim]

The 'no significant injury' is meaningless in a strong arm robbery. The whole point of the term 'strong arm' is the use of intimidation. You don't have to injure anyone, just show them thst you can because of your greater strength. Just like if you use a gun or a knife to rob someone, it doesnt matter if you pull the trigger or cut someone, just the fact that you brandished the weapon makes it an ARMED ROBBERY.

In a strong armed robbery, it is differentiated from shoplifting, because he used his 'show of strength' to intimidate the clerk who asked them to pay for the cigars. It dos not matter that there was no injury.

yeah, it matters to a prosecutor or judge. it is silly to imply otherwise. IN MY OPINION

 

[MyBelle]

My experience is all after the fact, as it were: They were already convicted. I worked in the diversion program known as Drug Court more recently (as a paralegal), and from what I've seen with applicants to the program, it would depend on any history he had, but this is JMO, and FWIW, in my experience. Less history = much better chance of probation or diversion. MUCH better.

I think he would have been offered a diversion program like probation. No one wants to ruin someone's life with a felony conviction at 18 years old for stealing blunts. BUT...I don't think MB knew that. I think he was terrified when he saw a cop. He thought he was busted, IMO, and damned terrified.hiHe didn't know what would happen. Surely, an arrest would plant him in the county jail until his family could post bond. And then his Mom would know he was a thief, a robber, violent! I think he was scared, and young, and...did something incredibly stupid. That's JMO, but, I think he wrestled with the cop because he didn't want to get caught.

And, so here we are. Waiting for the rest to come out. The autopsy, IMO, should shine some light.

In the link to the Missouri statute I posted upthread, Robbery is a felony that has a punishment that requires mandatory incarceration before probation can be considered. The video shows a physical assault. A juvenile judge might consider probation but Brown was an adult.

JMO

 

[katydid23]

what if he did?

If he had a juvenile record, then I believe the judge would charge him more harshly. If it were truly his very first brush with the law he would probasbly get off easy. But if he had priors, then , not so much.

 

[katydid23]

yeah, it matters to a prosecutor or judge. it is silly to imply otherwise. IN MY OPINION

True, if he had injured the clerk he would have been judged MORE harshly. But my point was that even if you do not injure anyone, using physical THREAT of injury is a serious crime.

 

[Wysteria]

That post deserves a standing ovation!!!!

Oh my gosh LOL, I just ran into your post just after I posted that I thought Linda's post ought to be the post of the day.

eta: post number 560 at the moment

 

[K_Z]

Thank you for your kind words, Wysteria.

I don't begin to understand lack of shame. Any reasonable parents I know would be horrified, ashamed, and deeply embarrassed at their 18 year old young adult being clearly shown robbing a convenience store, and assaulting a clerk 1/3 their size. And then defying the instructions of a police officer, and assaulting a police officer inside his patrol car, causing his own death, IMO.

I really cannot fathom what goes on in these people's minds. Saying their son's character is being assassinated by showing the video of him robbing a convenience store?? Really, I'm dumbfounded. Jaw dropping chutzpah. I feel like I don't even belong to the same species as these people. Have they no conscience? No ability to feel shame, regret, empathy, or embarrassment? Is the selfish entitlement mentality so deeply entrenched that they are literally unable to experience normal human response? No conscience? No moral compass? What is this behavior? Defiance and arrogance only scratch the surface. I don't know even what to call it.

Shame, in any culture in the world, is usually a normal response to being unequivocally caught doing something wrong, especially hurting another innocent person. That is wrong in every culture. I can't even ascribe this response to grief. I don't know what it is. It's entirely alien to me. I'm incapable of understanding it. I really want to feel compassion and empathy for them, but their responses make it very hard, IMO.

 

[MyBelle]

If he had a juvenile record, then I believe the judge would charge him more harshly. If it were truly his very first brush with the law he would probasbly get off easy. But if he had priors, then , not so much.

If Brown had a juvenile record, I totally agree the Judge would have punished him more harshly at sentencing. But there is no doubt in my mind that the prosecutor would have charged him at least with the same felony that police are saying today that he committed: strong-armed robbery.

JMO

 

[Frydaddy]

Based on the dispatch record of Wilson's vehicle, he was traveling west on Canfield towards W. Florissant. The two teens were on Canfield walking east, away from W. Florissant. Based on this information, Wilson was likely traveling towards the robbery site to help canvas. At 11:58, the BOLO went out to all police units. Wilson was cleared from sick call at 12:00. My guess is that as he heard the description, passed the two teens, realized that they fit the description and backed up blocking their path. (Part of this is corroborated by D. Johnson's account immediately after, though he is an unreliable witness obviously).

I would like to see the eyewitnesses questioned and asked two things. 1) Where was the vehicle parked in the road...facing west or perpendicular to the street? 2) Which way did Brown run when the officer started shooting. I think these two questions would help recreate the incident and answer how much of their story is likely true or not. These two answers and the direction of the body would likely help depict the incident a little better than what we have now.

IMO for those who require such.

 

[Kimster]

Leave the parents alone. Please and thank you!

 

[SwampMama]

Some robbery statistics:
http://www.crimedoctor.com/robbery1.htm

Most people think of robberies as those committed against banks (2.1%) or at late-night retail establishments like gas stations, or convenience stores (8.3%) where a gun is used to force the cashier to hand over the money. However, most robberies occur on the street (44.5%), directly against a person, and are called a strong-arm robbery. .... A shoplifter can also commit the crime of robbery if they fight with store personnel who try to stop them.

The weapon of choice for robbers is
firearm (42.2%)
knives or cutting instruments second (8.6%).
Strong-arm tactics like punching, pushing, kicking, or threats are used mainly on the street (39.9%).

The nationwide robbery clearance rate for cities was a dismal 25.2%. Suburban counties recorded a 30% clearance rate while rural had a better record of 41%. Nationally 14% of robbery clearances were for offenders under eighteen years of age. One reason the arrest rate remains low is because most robbers and victims are strangers and witness identification is often inadequate.

In 2006, 61% of all robbery arrestees were under twenty-five years of age. Of those, 90% were males. Blacks accounted for 54% of the total robbery arrests, whites for 44%, and all other races make up the remainder. Violent confrontations have always been a young man’s crime because of the drug connection and need to fight or run away if necessary.

While these statistics do not specifically tell us the jails are overflowing with 18 year old strong arm robbery offenders, it does establish that it is a popular type of robbery, it is primarily young men doing it and we can infer that while there may be many in jail for this, there are many more who have yet to be caught.

I am still astonished at the boldness of the crime. There was no attempt to disguise himself. There was no attempt to steal without the clerk knowing. There was no trace of hesitancy on MB's part. He seemed quite in charge and confident of what he was doing. It was very disconcerting to watch because he did it with such ease, as it if was quite natural for him to behave this way towards people. He was definitely aware that his size makes him a very imposing opponent. It was all just so brazen that it puzzles me, especially the walking down the middle of the street with the goods in hand and instigating an incident with the officer by being in the middle of the street and as the officer went about his way, did something that caused the officer to backtrack to them. Brazen, bold and provocative are just a few words that describe their actions.

 

[MyBelle]

Thank you for your kind words, Wysteria.

I don't begin to understand lack of shame. Any reasonable parents I know would be horrified, ashamed, and deeply embarrassed at their 18 year old young adult being clearly shown robbing a convenience store, and assaulting a clerk 1/3 their size. And then defying the instructions of a police officer, and assaulting a police officer inside his patrol car, causing his own death, IMO.

I really cannot fathom what goes on in these people's minds. Saying their son's character is being assassinated by showing the video of him robbing a convenience store?? Really, I'm dumbfounded. Jaw dropping chutzpah. I feel like I don't even belong to the same species as these people. Have they no conscience? No ability to feel shame, regret, empathy, or embarrassment? Is the selfish entitlement mentality so deeply entrenched that they are literally unable to experience normal human response? No conscience? No moral compass? What is this behavior? Defiance and arrogance only scratch the surface. I don't know even what to call it.

Shame, in any culture in the world, is usually a normal response to being unequivocally caught doing something wrong, especially hurting another innocent person. That is wrong in every culture. I can't even ascribe this response to grief. I don't know what it is. It's entirely alien to me. I'm incapable of understanding it. I really want to feel compassion and empathy for them, but their responses make it very hard, IMO.

What the responses of the supporters of these demonstrations have implied to me is that they are accusing the officer of racial profiling and that is why he stopped Brown and Johnson. iow, he had no probable cause to stop them. But he did have probable cause, they were walking in the street and refused his request to move to the sidewalk. As the videos and other details have been released, it's pretty obvious this isn't a case about race or racial profiling. I think the video of the strong-arm robbery proves it is case about an officer involved shooting of a criminal suspect. The officer's race and that of the suspect are totally irrelevant.

JMO

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

FWIW - Experts review alleged Mike Brown robbery surveillance video - http://fox2now.com/2014/08/15/fox2-ask-veteran-police-officer-to-review-robbery-surveillance-video/

 

[Simply Caustic]

In the link to the Missouri statute I posted upthread, Robbery is a felony that has a punishment that requires mandatory incarceration before probation can be considered. The video shows a physical assault. A juvenile judge might consider probation but Brown was an adult.

JMO

It's not mandatory prison time. They do "SIS" which is a suspended sentence program. So the offender would be sentenced to, say, 4 years prison time, but not serve a day. Instead, they complete a probation program.

Authorized dispositions for felony convictions include a term of imprisonment, a fine (if the offense is a Class C or D felony, Section 560.111, RSMo) and a period of probation. In addition, the execution of the sentence may be suspended and the person placed on probation or the imposition of the sentence may be suspended, with or without placing the person on probation (Section 557.011, RSMo).

Grabbed a couple links:
http://www.stlcriminaldefense.com/i...&catid=7:stlouiscriminaldefenseblog-&Itemid=5
http://www.mosac.mo.gov/page.jsp?id=45441

 

[MyBelle]

FWIW - Experts review alleged Mike Brown robbery surveillance video - http://fox2now.com/2014/08/15/fox2-ask-veteran-police-officer-to-review-robbery-surveillance-video/

Thanks. This comment from a local police officer jumps out:

As for the robbery itself, Bland says the use of force would make it a felony

JMO

 

[liz b.]

When will the toxicology report be known ?

 

[Simply Caustic]

Did anyone else here the woman who was quoted saying something like "I think the reason it took so long for the video to come out, is that they Photoshopped MB into the video, he never did that, why do you think it took so long?"

I heard it on talk radio in Chicago but I'm wondering if anyone else heard it. I couldn't believe my ears when I heard that. Utterly ridiculous. JMO

 

[MyBelle]

It's not mandatory prison time. They do "SIS" which is a suspended sentence program. So the offender would be sentenced to, say, 4 years prison time, but not serve a day. Instead, they complete a probation program.

Authorized dispositions for felony convictions include a term of imprisonment, a fine (if the offense is a Class C or D felony, Section 560.111, RSMo) and a period of probation. In addition, the execution of the sentence may be suspended and the person placed on probation or the imposition of the sentence may be suspended, with or without placing the person on probation (Section 557.011, RSMo).

Grabbed a couple links:
http://www.stlcriminaldefense.com/i...&catid=7:stlouiscriminaldefenseblog-&Itemid=5
http://www.mosac.mo.gov/page.jsp?id=45441

I posted the link to the statute. It clearly says a suspended imposition can't be considered until 3 years is served.

MISSOURI STATUTES AND CODES 571.015.
Armed criminal action, defined, penalty.......upon conviction, shall be punished by imprisonment ....for a term of not less than three years....No person convicted under this subsection shall be eligible for parole, probation, conditional release or suspended imposition or execution of sentence for a period of three calendar years.


See more at: http://statutes.laws.com/missouri/t3....x7QUsgQV.dpuf

 

[William N]

The 'no significant injury' is meaningless in a strong arm robbery. The whole point of the term 'strong arm' is the use of intimidation. You don't have to injure anyone, just show them thst you can because of your greater strength. Just like if you use a gun or a knife to rob someone, it doesnt matter if you pull the trigger or cut someone, just the fact that you brandished the weapon makes it an ARMED ROBBERY.

In a strong armed robbery, it is differentiated from shoplifting, because he used his 'show of strength' to intimidate the clerk who asked them to pay for the cigars. It dos not matter that there was no injury.

And the 300-pound assailant was over twice the size of the store clerk.

 

[Simply Caustic]

I posted the link to the statute. It clearly says a suspended imposition can't be considered until 3 years is served.

MISSOURI STATUTES AND CODES 571.015.
Armed criminal action, defined, penalty.......upon conviction, shall be punished by imprisonment ....for a term of not less than three years....No person convicted under this subsection shall be eligible for parole, probation, conditional release or suspended imposition or execution of sentence for a period of three calendar years.


See more at: http://statutes.laws.com/missouri/t3....x7QUsgQV.dpuf

I'm sorry, but that's incorrect. I won't fight with you over it, I respect you as a poster and I'm not trying to be rude, but I have personally seen it happen. I will find the statute.
EDIT: I'll ask an attorney to weigh in. I've personally seen it, and I see a bunch of citations for it. If you google "suspended sentence missouri robbery" there are a slew of responses. Agree to disagree, with respect.

citations:

In Missouri, Mo. Rev. Stat. § 557.011.2 allows a court to pronounce sentence and suspend its execution, placing the person on probation. Suspended executions of sentence are considered to be final judgments by Missouri courts, while suspended impositions of sentence are not. However both suspended impositions of sentence and suspended executions of sentence qualify as prior convictions for purposes of 21 U.S.C.S. § 841(b)(1)(A).( Drug Offenses)[ United States v. Craddock, 593 F.3d 699, 701 (8th Cir. 2010)]

A suspended execution of sentence constituted an "entry of judgment and sentence" [ Finley v. State, 847 S.W.2d 105, 1992 Mo. App. LEXIS 1762 (Mo. Ct. App. 1992).]
The following is an example of a State Statute (Missouri) on SES:
A person convicted of Pharmacy robbery in the first and second degree shall not be eligible for suspended execution of sentence, parole or conditional release until having served a minimum years of imprisonment.[§ 569.035 R.S.Mo.; § 569.025 R.S.Mo.]

News article: http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/crime/women-get-probation-for-roles-in-robbery/article_3a1a9d5a-0fbd-5435-a5c9-3a5cc5268880.html
snip
Two Columbia women responsible for a November liquor store robbery have been sentenced to probation.
Haynes was given five years of supervised probation. The crime will be forgiven if Haynes completes her probation successfully. If she does not complete it successfully, she could be sentenced to prison.

Parrow received a seven-year prison sentence, but the execution of her sentence was suspended in favor of five years of supervised probation. That means she was convicted but can avoid the prison sentence if she completes her probation.

 

[MyBelle]

And the 300-pound assailant was over twice the size of the store clerk.

Terrorizing him in broad daylight. Strolling down the street afterward. Refusing a police order to move to a sidewalk. Pretty scary stuff, imo.