MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #2

Status
Not open for further replies.
  • #461
there is some question as to whether he had to release it or not, why would he have to release surveillance video from a suspected crime in which no charges have been filed related to the crime? better legal minds than mine will have to firgure this out but i have seen several people who should supposedly know saying that it would not be subject to a FOIA request. anyone know for sure?

I'm wondering that too - but it was the subject of a search warrant. They were holding the video while deciding if other charges were warranted (I guess against DJ) and then decided charges weren't warranted. At that point, does this videotape - since it won't be used as evidence in a charged crime but was the subject of a search warrant - become public information? I think that's what Jackson alluded to. Once it was decided that they didn't need to hold the videotape as evidence in a charged crime they had to release it.

Interesting question.
 
  • #462
Don Lemmon on CNN asked Johnson's lawyer a couple times if he was given immunity before questioning and he skirted the question hmm
 
  • #463
I do not believe Johnson's version, that a cop would grab a 6ft3, muscular teen by the neck, through a car window. What would be the point of that? It is not a very good position for the cop to be in at all? It makes no sense to me. jmo

Hence the need to know if it was a "truck" or squad car. If it was an SUV (truck), I could see a cop maybe being able to grab a 6'4'' guy around the neck area. A squad car...don't see it. Also, a lot of detail in DJ's testimony for something that likely took seconds regardless. Like too much information...a little too detailed.

Crenshaw is the only one talking about the back of the car...
 
  • #464
I'm wondering that too - but it was the subject of a search warrant. They were holding the video while deciding if other charges were warranted (I guess against DJ) and then decided charges weren't warranted. At that point, does this videotape - since it won't be used as evidence in a charged crime but was the subject of a search warrant - become public information? I think that's what Jackson alluded to. Once it was decided that they didn't need to hold the videotape as evidence in a charged crime they had to release it.

Interesting question.

yeah could be, i dont really know anything about that stuff.
 
  • #465
does anyone have a link for a statement from the police chief that says that the officer definitely suspected the two of them of the robbery before the shooting started?

please provide a link to a statement that says this or maybe we should stop claiming it as fact.

all i have seen is the police chief talking to don lemon of CNN saying something like "maybe" or "could have".

thanx for a link. if it has already been posted i must have missed it, thread has been moving fast and i have been in and out.

I'm not sure what it is you want confirmation of. Officer Wilson heard the description of the suspects. They obviously called attention to themselves by walking in the street. I certainly do NOT believe the version of events as related by his robbery accomplice that all the officer did was to tell them to get back on the sidewalk and drive on by.

11:52 a.m. - A police dispatcher gave a description of the robbery suspect over the radio. The suspect is described as wearing a white T-shirt, long khaki shorts, yellow socks, flip-flop type shoes and a red Cardinals baseball cap. Wilson left the sick call after hearing the report of the robbery.

11:54 a.m. - A police officer arrived at the store, but the suspects were gone. The officer is told the suspects walked north on W. Florissant Avenue, but the officer did not see them.

12:01 p.m. - Officer Wilson encountered Brown. In previous statements, Chief Jackson said Wilson was pushed back into his car and that he and Brown struggled before Wilson fired at Brown.

12:04 p.m. - A second officer arrived "at the scene of the shooting," Jackson said.

12:05 p.m. - A police supervisor arrived on the scene.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/ferguson-c...sination-slain-teens/story?id=24998305&page=2
 
  • #466
I do not believe Johnson's version, that a cop would grab a 6ft3, muscular teen by the neck, through a car window. What would be the point of that? It is not a very good position for the cop to be in at all? It makes no sense to me. jmo

at the same time, doesnt it seem crazy that this guy with no criminal record is going to assault a cop and try to get his gun, presumably to kill him as many have suggested, over being stopped for either jaywalking or stealing from a store?

you could argue that he knew he was wanted for a felony crime but honestly, this crime when they were caught would never have been prosecuted as a felony, and its pretty questionable whether or not he would have been under the impression he was in big serious trouble if caught.
 
  • #467
has the family seen the ME report? i didnt think they had. i thought they were calling for a second autopsy just because of the distrust inherent here.

As in the Kendrick Johnson & Alfred Wright cases, a second autopsy is for PR purposes. You can find someone to suggest whatever you want. In the Alfred Wright case the family hired a pathologist to say she suspected homicide in order to draw attention to the case.
 
  • #468
I'm wondering that too - but it was the subject of a search warrant. They were holding the video while deciding if other charges were warranted (I guess against DJ) and then decided charges weren't warranted. At that point, does this videotape - since it won't be used as evidence in a charged crime but was the subject of a search warrant - become public information? I think that's what Jackson alluded to. Once it was decided that they didn't need to hold the videotape as evidence in a charged crime they had to release it.

Interesting question.

Yeah that bit about the warrant appears to be complete BS. I am certain the police report said the cops got a CD of the robbery the next day! That is typical in these cases, the video is often burned onto CD and handed over within an hour or less.

I believe they only SAID they had to get a warrant because the robbery victim is scared to death and did NOT want to be targeted for "being a snitch", especially after the QT "Snitches get Stitches" message.
 
  • #469
And if the nearly 300 pound Michael Brown had killed the small store clerk (which could easily have happened), there would have been NO mention in the national media. None at all.

No demonstrations in protest either.
 
  • #470
I'm not sure what it is you want confirmation of. Officer Wilson heard the description of the suspects. They obviously called attention to themselves by walking in the street. I certainly do NOT believe the version of events as related by his robbery accomplice that all the officer did was to tell them to get back on the sidewalk and drive on by.

11:52 a.m. - A police dispatcher gave a description of the robbery suspect over the radio. The suspect is described as wearing a white T-shirt, long khaki shorts, yellow socks, flip-flop type shoes and a red Cardinals baseball cap. Wilson left the sick call after hearing the report of the robbery.

11:54 a.m. - A police officer arrived at the store, but the suspects were gone. The officer is told the suspects walked north on W. Florissant Avenue, but the officer did not see them.

12:01 p.m. - Officer Wilson encountered Brown. In previous statements, Chief Jackson said Wilson was pushed back into his car and that he and Brown struggled before Wilson fired at Brown.

12:04 p.m. - A second officer arrived "at the scene of the shooting," Jackson said.

12:05 p.m. - A police supervisor arrived on the scene.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/ferguson-c...sination-slain-teens/story?id=24998305&page=2

thanx for the reply - i dont think i can possibly make it any clearer what i am requesting so i will just repeat it and maybe you can tell me what part you dont get and i will try to explain further;

"does anyone have a link for a statement from the police chief that says that the officer definitely suspected the two of them of the robbery before the shooting started?"

a statement from the police chief that says "this officer definitely became aware that these two were suspects in a felony robbery before the altercation and shooting".

thanx
 
  • #471
It's not about whether MB deserved to die. It's about whether the officer was justified in using deadly force. I feel like I don't have enough accurate info at this point to even venture a guess. But that will be the inquiry that will determine whether the officer can be criminally charged for the shooting. And it's a completely fact based analysis.

The current relevant case law sets some parameters:

Tennessee v. Garner, (U.S. Supreme Court 1985) indicates when it is justified to shoot someone fleeing. (NOTE: It has not been established to my satisfaction whether or not MB was fleeing, advancing or surrendering)

deadly force...may not be used unless necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious bodily harm to the officer or others.

Graham v. Conner (U.S. Supreme Court 1989) held that evaluating the behavior of officer using deadly force is done using the standard of a "reasonable officer". This is different than the normal standard of a "reasonable person" and takes into account the unique circumstances present for those engaged in LE. But it is an objective rather than a subjective standard that takes into account the need for high pressure split second decisionmaking in determining what level of force is justified.

The Court considered three fundamental questions in assessing use-of force scenarios:
(1) What is the nature or the severity of the offense?; (2) Did the suspect pose an immediate threat to the officers or others?; and (3) Is the suspect actively resisting or attempting escape.

A subsequent case, Scott v Harris (U.S. Supreme Court 1985) evaluated only whether the officers actions were reasonable. In this case a deputy rammed the suspects car who was only being pursued for speeding. The suspect did not die but was left paralyzed. In an 8-1 decision, the court sided with police and ruled that a "police officer's attempt to terminate a dangerous high-speed car chase that threatens the lives of innocent bystanders does not violate the Fourth Amendment, even when it places the fleeing motorist at risk of serious injury or death."

So, everything in this case will be evaluated by the DA/Prosecutors office according to the standards established in order to determine, not whether the decedent deserved to die, but whether the officer was justified in using deadly force.



I don't believe that either. I don't think any of us do. But to take a life as a cop you have to have cause. I don't see that yet. Not if he had his hands up. Not if he had already been shot once.
I think this guy was not squeaky clean but that is a long way from deserving to be shot dead in a street.
 
  • #472
there is some question as to whether he had to release it or not, why would he have to release surveillance video from a suspected crime in which no charges have been filed related to the crime? better legal minds than mine will have to firgure this out but i have seen several people who should supposedly know saying that it would not be subject to a FOIA request. anyone know for sure?

It wasn't a suspected crime, it WAS a crime and a police officer responded. No different than a 911 call.

JMO
 
  • #473
at the same time, doesnt it seem crazy that this guy with no criminal record is going to assault a cop and try to get his gun, presumably to kill him as many have suggested, over being stopped for either jaywalking or stealing from a store?

you could argue that he knew he was wanted for a felony crime but honestly, this crime when they were caught would never have been prosecuted as a felony, and its pretty questionable whether or not he would have been under the impression he was in big serious trouble if caught.

I think it's a complete mystery why he doesn't have a criminal record. I don't believe for ONE MINUTE that a guy who went into a liquor store to steal cigars and then assaults the clerk has never committed a crime before.

I think we all know juveniles who commit crimes continuously and somehow - who knows how - they never seem to be caught or when caught never seem to be charged or when charged they get off.

Any crimes he had committed prior would be juvy crimes if he was charged, and I don't think those are open records. Interestingly, one of the supporters today said it doesn't matter what Michael Brown did for the first 18 years of his life, what matters is what happened after he raised his hands in the air in surrender. To me, that means that once people start talking there will be innumerable incidents of antisocial and criminal behavior.

You don't start with a strong arm robbery and then an assault on a cop 10 minutes later. You only do that if criminal behavior is routine. IMHO.
 
  • #474
at the same time, doesnt it seem crazy that this guy with no criminal record is going to assault a cop and try to get his gun, presumably to kill him as many have suggested, over being stopped for either jaywalking or stealing from a store?

you could argue that he knew he was wanted for a felony crime but honestly, this crime when they were caught would never have been prosecuted as a felony, and its pretty questionable whether or not he would have been under the impression he was in big serious trouble if caught.
No criminal record usually means one of three things. They have never done anything, they have never been caught before, it is sealed because they were a juvie. jmo

Also, he was due to go away to school in 2 days so the last thing he wanted was to get caught for this serious crime imo. He panicked.
 
  • #475
It wasn't a suspected crime, it WAS a crime and a police officer responded. No different than a 911 call.

JMO

sure, take suspected out. its not exactly what i meant anyway, i meant a crime under investigation. good point.
 
  • #476
at the same time, doesnt it seem crazy that this guy with no criminal record is going to assault a cop and try to get his gun, presumably to kill him as many have suggested, over being stopped for either jaywalking or stealing from a store?

you could argue that he knew he was wanted for a felony crime but honestly, this crime when they were caught would never have been prosecuted as a felony, and its pretty questionable whether or not he would have been under the impression he was in big serious trouble if caught.

Are we sure he has no record? That's what they said about Trayvon Martin too and he had quite the record.

Do they have the Baker Act in MO?
 
  • #477
No criminal record always means one of three things. They have never done anything, they have never been caught before, it is sealed because they were a juvie. jmo

Also, he was due to go away to school in 2 days so the last thing he wanted was to get caught for this serious crime imo. He panicked.

you are correct, but regardless of why he had no record, im sure he was aware he had no record. do you agree?

panicking imo would be to run, attacking a cop and trying to get his gun and kill him is not panicking, that is going completely insane.

might be what happened tho...
 
  • #478
I think it's a complete mystery why he doesn't have a criminal record. I don't believe for ONE MINUTE that a guy who went into a liquor store to steal cigars and then assaults the clerk has never committed a crime before.

I think we all know juveniles who commit crimes continuously and somehow - who knows how - they never seem to be caught or when caught never seem to be charged or when charged they get off.

Any crimes he had committed prior would be juvy crimes if he was charged, and I don't think those are open records. Interestingly, one of the supporters today said it doesn't matter what Michael Brown did for the first 18 years of his life, what matters is what happened after he raised his hands in the air in surrender. To me, that means that once people start talking there will be innumerable incidents of antisocial and criminal behavior.

You don't start with a strong arm robbery and then an assault on a cop 10 minutes later. You only do that if criminal behavior is routine. IMHO.

regardless of the level of mystery surrounding his lack of a criminal record, the fact still remains that he had none and im sure he was aware of that fact, do you agree?
 
  • #479
FYI Found the report again, see page 8: https://s3.amazonaws.com/files.scri...50697.pdf?wmode=opaque#viewer.action=download

Officer writes "On 8/10 I contacted (robbery victim) and received a copy of their surveillance video on disc....

(He said he couldn't play the video but that doesn't mean it wasn't good, the cop just didn't have the right video codex installed, anyone in the police IT department could fix that).

They HAD the surveillance video so all of the stuff about "getting a warrant" now is made up for the robbery victims benefit.
 
  • #480
its a valid point tho that he has only been 18 for how long? idk

its possible he has been doing things like this and in and out of courts for the last several years, idk.

there is no evidence of it, but it could be.

some sound like theyare ready to assume it must be so because of this incident, i usually give people the benefit of the doubt until there is evidence.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
124
Guests online
686
Total visitors
810

Forum statistics

Threads
632,437
Messages
18,626,484
Members
243,150
Latest member
Jackenhack
Back
Top