MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #20

[reedus23]

I think you make a legitimate observation, which is why I have been harping about proper leadership in urban communities. These out of town leaders seem to have less sense than the residents, they come in and fan the flames creating more animosity, then they will leave the residents to deal with the fallout. They need a leader who will come in and solve the internal problems within the community first (education, crime, poverty), then find out how much of an external problem (LE and government) they have. You can have an all-black PD and government who all fit the mold of MLK himself, does anyone really think that is the elixir that solves the internal problems? I think this is why these communities continue to look like war zones as you mentioned, they are in a cycle where everyone else is the problem.

It's funny how we argue back and forth about the whole walking down the middle of the street thing. Is that a big deal? Heavens no, it really isn't. But, when the community is full of people who would rather get out of the middle of the street without being asked, THAT is when you have progress. Those are choices that show people want improvement. If you refuse to move, it tells me people want struggle or want those around them to change, but they have no interest in changing themselves.

Sorry, just thinking out loud here.

Great post frydaddy. Agree on so many levels. I think that the proper leadership will not be heard of. I think the proper leaders will quietly go about their business of leading. They won't be the ones on the front lines shouting "Hands up! Don't shoot!" and they won't be the ones to be vocally criticizing the protests. They will have empathy for all sides. They absolutely have got to on the one hand improve the education of the community. Have got to lead a greater percentage of the populous into becoming assets to the community instead of criminals. At the same time, I KNOW they have problems within their LE and governments and they can work towards fixing those things at the same time. I think there are small steps heading that direction now. When things first flared up, I thought French might be such a person, but he's disappointed me on so many levels.

I also agree about the out of town leaders and what they've done/will do. I will add someone like Shahid to the list, who frankly, to me has been looking forward to this day for decades. To me, it's sick to almost want something like the MB/OW incident to happen so he can get that confrontation with the system that he's always yearned for.

I also get what you're saying with your example of the street too, but I also think that that is one of the reasons why progress has to be made on both the internal and external at the same time. I don't know how to say this without it getting whacked or being given a timeout but I will try. It is going to be very hard to convince a community to be more respectful of authority and move to the side of the street if even one among that authority is of the mentality that it is ok to make a statement such as "You don't understand the n****r mentality."(I changed one word in the text. The actual word is "c**n" but I didn't know if people would figure that word out). By allowing one such person to remain in a place of authority, condemns all of that authority in the eyes of the populous. So 100% agree that work has to be done internally but I think it can be and needs to be done in conjunction with and contemporaneously with the external change.

 

[DebinGA]

http://fox2now.com/2014/08/02/amnesty-day-gives-st-louisans-a-chance-to-clear-misdemeanor-warrants/

The week before MB died, three StLC "warrant amnesty" events occurred, one less than 3 mi. from Canfield Green Apts. at the nearby junior college along a bus route. Every day next week similar StLC amnesty opportunities will occur 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. I know MB, DJ, PC, and TM all had Facebook pages, so internet access must be generally available in Ferguson. Why is it that more poor Ferguson blacks, supposedly weighed down by accumulating traffic fines, didn't take advantage of the amnesty program? What is keeping them from checking the fine amnesty dates online and clearly up all their warrants for a nominal fee.?

 

[reedus23]

I may check it out, too, but don't have a WS tshirt -- will be wearing Cardinals Red. I'll be downtown @ Busch Stadium tonight/Fri/Sat/Sun night (unless the media changes Game Time to coincide with the Rams game on Sun -- no way, both are being televised uke & if church let's out on time, I may ask some friends to venture north to LambsTown & mean RamsTown :laugh:

Heck, I may have a NFL ticket to scalp/miracle to someone on Sunday Noon

If you're telling me you're going to the Cards games I'm super jealous. I had someone offer a ticket to the Rams game and I've said no so many times I finally broke down and said ok.

 

[BirdycatNY]

Efforts always need to be made to reduce crime but there will always be a criminal element. Because I think more highly of LEO's than I do the every day criminal, potential criminal behavior bothers me more when it's done by a LEO than a .

Good point, corruption and abuse of power seems more like a betrayal. But in OW's case we don't know if this a text book case of self-defense/justified shooting or not, so imo people jumped the gun in attacking OW when he may have been exactly doing what's in his job description "to protect and serve." So I wonder if facts show this as a justified shooting and no indictment where will the community go from there?

I think LE may need to educate the community about the work they do and the criminals they're up against to bridge that gap. Because the community and protestors are only hurting themselves in the long-run if this isn't really about a "racist executioner cop against young men" but a police officer trying to keep the neighborhood safe from the criminal element. Bringing in irrelevant issues or diverse LE will not address the underlying problems of crime imo.

 

[reedus23]

http://fox2now.com/2014/08/02/amnesty-day-gives-st-louisans-a-chance-to-clear-misdemeanor-warrants/

The week before MB died, three StLC "warrant amnesty" events occurred, one less than 3 mi. from Canfield Green Apts. at the nearby junior college along a bus route. Every day next week similar StLC amnesty opportunities will occur 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. I know MB, DJ, PC, and TM all had Facebook pages, so internet access must be generally available in Ferguson. Why is it that more poor Ferguson blacks, supposedly weighed down by accumulating traffic fines, didn't take advantage of the amnesty program? What is keeping them from checking the fine amnesty dates online and clearly up all their warrants for a nominal fee.?

Everyone should. Not everyone will. White or black.

I know of a white kid, got a ticket for tinted windows. $70 fine. Ignored it, it went warrant. Paid a lawyer $150 to get the warrant recalled. The lawyer did, though now had another $50 failure to appear fine attached to it and given a new date. You can guess what happened then. No pay. No appear. Warrant issued. Another $150 to lawyer to get warrant recalled. Another $50 failure to appear fine. He paid it then. What would have cost $70 and had no points ended up costing him $470. Can't fix stupid. Of course, that wasn't in Ferguson but out in St. Charles County.

 

[krimekat]

No question he will be shouted down but these are good first steps to reconnecting with the community. Mayor Knowles is slowly but surely earning some points back in my book. He owned up to his misstep of saying there is no racial divide in Ferguson. He's taking steps (I'm sure at the suggestion of the DOJ) to engage the community. If they're smart, they'll have members of the DOJ present as well. There's still distrust of the local government but I think if some of the DOJ is there to interact as well it may aid in making sure some dialogue occurs in between the shouts.

Kudos for those who are building a bridge in their communities!

Honestly, if it's actually THAT hard to vote on specific days, then make voting a week long holiday! I typically vote absentee where I'm registered if I care enough about the results of an election. I understand that of those w/the privilege to vote don't register & half of those actually vote, but when did people stop voting? Or stop registering -- it's easy, so f-ing easy (Guns N Roses song)? I couldn't wait to get a voter's ID when I turned 18! Hey, I am a nerd

Specific to StL, I'm in the City & it's totally separate from the County for now. But I'm concerned that a City employee whose salary is paid by my 1% tax to live here & 1% tax 'cause I work here (Frenchie) inciting riots/violence/lies!!! Unless my tax $$$$ go strictly to my Ward (no way)

talk about Gerrymandering if ya'll know what I mean https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/departments/planning/documents/upload/2011CitywideWardMap1.pdf

 

[Lovejac]

Excellent piece
http://www.newsweek.com/quora-quest...k-about-how-police-department-ferguson-269439


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Great article!

 

[K_Z]

No question he will be shouted down but these are good first steps to reconnecting with the community. Mayor Knowles is slowly but surely earning some points back in my book. He owned up to his misstep of saying there is no racial divide in Ferguson. He's taking steps (I'm sure at the suggestion of the DOJ) to engage the community. If they're smart, they'll have members of the DOJ present as well. There's still distrust of the local government but I think if some of the DOJ is there to interact as well it may aid in making sure some dialogue occurs in between the shouts.

eh, the thuggery affects me more than LEO; too many thugs & not enough LEO IMHO - although 3 LEOs live on my south City street & keep me in the know. IMHO what ODW did is not criminal but in self defense

I've been carrying a baseball bat on my shoulder when I'm out & about on foot (in addition to my CCW under my arm) - love my neighborhood watch program in south City (down by the River next to AB Brewery) regardless of race/religion/sexual orientation/gender, we are a strong community !!! Even though our shoe carnival was hit

BBM.

I don't get the sense, from all I've seen and read on this case, that "all" of Ferguson is a crime infested gang zone, and the the mayor may in fact be correct, that there is not a "racial divide". I think it's more of a geographic divide, extreme poverty vs middle class.

In fact, the more I read, it seems that an exceptionally small area of Ferguson accounts for a large percentage of the most extreme poverty, crime, gangs, and drugs. And that area is the "annex" of Riverview Gardens, Northwinds, and Canfield Green-- in essence, the "crime campus" of the apartment complex area of the city that was annexed. This particular area seems to be a powder keg of social problems of all kinds. Add to this the requirement, IIRC, for the apartment renters to meet income of less than 60% of "poverty requirements", and it becomes more clear why all the problems are concentrated in one small area, IMO. The NIMBY factor.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_678334ce-500a-5689-8658-f548207cf253.html

 

[reedus23]

Good point, corruption and abuse of power seems more like a betrayal. But in OW's case we don't know if this a text book case of self-defense/justified shooting or not, so imo people jumped the gun in attacking OW when he may have been exactly doing what's in his job description "to protect and serve." So I wonder if facts show this as a justified shooting and no indictment where will the community go from there?

I think LE may need to educate the community about the work they do and the criminals they're up against to bridge that gap. Because the community and protestors are only hurting themselves in the long-run if this isn't really about a "racist executioner cop against young men" but a police officer trying to keep the neighborhood safe from the criminal element. Bringing in irrelevant issues or diverse LE will not address the underlying problems of crime imo.

I agree and I may have been guilty early on of attacking OW. Can't remember but wouldn't be surprised. Can't speak for the community, but as long as the process is fair and objective, there will be no complaints from me. Obviously, Ferguson will be different.

As to the 2nd paragraph, I don't know if you saw the town hall meetings the mayor has set up. The first thought through my mind was down the road (emotions are still too raw right now) I would love to see members of the force involved in those as well. Just as you saw some protect stores from being looted, I think there are some that will embrace a dialogue with LE and getting a better understanding of the difficulties they face. It would also give the community a chance to voice concerns they have with LE. Trust could be slowly developed on both sides.

 

[krimekat]

Everyone should. Not everyone will. White or black.

I know of a white kid, got a ticket for tinted windows. $70 fine. Ignored it, it went warrant. Paid a lawyer $150 to get the warrant recalled. The lawyer did, though now had another $50 failure to appear fine attached to it and given a new date. You can guess what happened then. No pay. No appear. Warrant issued. Another $150 to lawyer to get warrant recalled. Another $50 failure to appear fine. He paid it then. What would have cost $70 and had no points ended up costing him $470. Can't fix stupid. Of course, that wasn't in Ferguson but out in St. Charles County.

and the lawyers make more $$$$$
and the courts

 

[reedus23]

Kudos for those who are building a bridge in their communities!

Honestly, if it's actually THAT hard to vote on specific days, then make voting a week long holiday! I typically vote absentee where I'm registered if I care enough about the results of an election. I understand that of those w/the privilege to vote don't register & half of those actually vote, but when did people stop voting? Or stop registering -- it's easy, so f-ing easy (Guns N Roses song)? I couldn't wait to get a voter's ID when I turned 18! Hey, I am a nerd

Specific to StL, I'm in the City & it's totally separate from the County for now. But I'm concerned that a City employee whose salary is paid by my 1% tax to live here & 1% tax 'cause I work here (Frenchie) inciting riots/violence/lies!!! Unless my tax $$$$ go strictly to my Ward (no way)

talk about Gerrymandering if ya'll know what I mean https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/departments/planning/documents/upload/2011CitywideWardMap1.pdf

How ironic you quote Guns n Roses, whose lead singer was also prosecuted by McCulloch. Small world. lol

 

[Lovejac]

http://fox2now.com/2014/08/02/amnesty-day-gives-st-louisans-a-chance-to-clear-misdemeanor-warrants/

The week before MB died, three StLC "warrant amnesty" events occurred, one less than 3 mi. from Canfield Green Apts. at the nearby junior college along a bus route. Every day next week similar StLC amnesty opportunities will occur 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. I know MB, DJ, PC, and TM all had Facebook pages, so internet access must be generally available in Ferguson. Why is it that more poor Ferguson blacks, supposedly weighed down by accumulating traffic fines, didn't take advantage of the amnesty program? What is keeping them from checking the fine amnesty dates online and clearly up all their warrants for a nominal fee.?

Good grief :facepalm:

 

[reedus23]

BBM.

I don't get the sense, from all I've seen and read on this case, that "all" of Ferguson is a crime infested gang zone, and the the mayor may in fact be correct, that there is not a "racial divide". I think it's more of a geographic divide, extreme poverty vs middle class.

In fact, the more I read, it seems that an exceptionally small area of Ferguson accounts for a large percentage of the most extreme poverty, crime, gangs, and drugs. And that area is the "annex" of Riverview Gardens, Northwinds, and Canfield Green-- in essence, the "crime campus" of the apartment complex area of the city that was annexed. This particular area seems to be a powder keg of social problems of all kinds. Add to this the requirement, IIRC, for the apartment renters to meet income of less than 60% of "poverty requirements", and it becomes more clear why all the problems are concentrated in one small area, IMO. The NIMBY factor.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_678334ce-500a-5689-8658-f548207cf253.html

I think there is a little bit of truth to be found in all of it, but all of it would also include the fact that there is some truth to there being a racial divide as well.

 

[krimekat]

How ironic you quote Guns n Roses, whose lead singer was also prosecuted by McCulloch. Small world. lol

Locals would know :laugh: I was at Riotport that night -- my friend made bank in a lawsuit! You can only imagine who his atty was

 

[Linda7NJ]

Good point, corruption and abuse of power seems more like a betrayal. But in OW's case we don't know if this a text book case of self-defense/justified shooting or not, so imo people jumped the gun in attacking OW when he may have been exactly doing what's in his job description "to protect and serve." So I wonder if facts show this as a justified shooting and no indictment where will the community go from there?

I think LE may need to educate the community about the work they do and the criminals they're up against to bridge that gap. Because the community and protestors are only hurting themselves in the long-run if this isn't really about a "racist executioner cop against young men" but a police officer trying to keep the neighborhood safe from the criminal element. Bringing in irrelevant issues or diverse LE will not address the underlying problems of crime imo.

IMO the problem is, the criminal element is entrenched. Once it gets to that point...it's very difficult to do anything about it.

Years ago, the first property I owned was a condo. Life was wonderful. Until, quite a few units became section 8. There would be 15 people living in a two bedroom condo....outside all night, drinking, drug empty packets all in the parking lot. Using other people's patio furniture, loud, ....basically neighbors from hell!
We called the police every single time. The condo association began fining the owners...the owners started screening their renters better and the problem went away. But it took the rest of us to make those calls and voice our concerns consistently.


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[krimekat]

Good grief :facepalm:

I know -- the City has the same kind of program

http://fox2now.com/2014/08/02/amnesty-day-gives-st-louisans-a-chance-to-clear-misdemeanor-warrants/

 

[reedus23]

and the lawyers make more $$$$$
and the courts

Yepp which made no sense to me, beyond the fact that the kid was just scared of dealing with the courts/LE. Even after it went warrant, told him he could have paid the $70 fine and $50 failure to appear fine ($120 total) and it was less than the lawyer and the warrant would disappear as soon as the payment was made. Told him if you're afraid of being arrested just for trying to pay the fine, have your mom take it up there for you.

 

[reedus23]

Locals would know :laugh: I was at Riotport that night -- my friend made bank in a lawsuit! You can only imagine who his atty was

The only lawyer I recall on the the civil end is Bronson.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I think there is a little bit of truth to be found in all of it, but all of it would also include the fact that there is some truth to there being a racial divide as well.

Honestly, I think the divide was caused by the criminal elements that hold their neighborhoods hostage.


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[reedus23]

Honestly, I think the divide was caused by the criminal elements that hold their neighborhoods hostage.


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Again, to be clear, I was giving no opinion as to who or what may contribute to cause any divide, just that one exists. My experience, it's rarely all on the lap of one side or the other.