MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #20

[Lovejac]

How is it a smear campaign if the video is the TRUTH? The video was from minutes before the shooting. That makes it totally relevant to MBs state of mind DURING the confrontation.

I know there was some outcry, but the public as a whole, simmered down after seeing the video. Not all and there were plenty of protests, But there was National outrage before the video was released. And afterwards, a lot of the public outrage leveled down.

If it has been Officer Wilson stealing and roughing up a little man, it would be relevant too.

 

[reedus23]

IMO I'm
Glad you joined but it's really not fair to keep asking what we have already discussed to death. Please read the media thread. Every witness statement given can be seen there.


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It sounds to me that he/she is familiar with all that stuff. Has simply come to a different conclusion than others. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[reedus23]

But what if the officers story is corroborated by the evidence? Should the prosecutor charge him, if MB was the aggressor that attacked him and grabbed for his gun, attempting to kill him?

They still need guidance as to the law and the charges so they can determine if the facts and the evidence support those charges. As for MB the aggressor or attempting to kill him, that only sets the background of the story. Question is whether or not, after that (assuming it's true for arguments sake) was MB still a threat or had he surrendered to arrest.

 

[Lovejac]

Its not fair to refer to mb size when we dont know dw size... at least i dont

Dorian did lie first about the robbery at first, im sure he didnt want to incriminate himself. Dont think its just cause to toss out his testimony. And his account of what happened between ow and mb at the suv is corrobborated by tiffany mitchell

That is why i continue to refer to happened at the suv as the scuffle because there are multiple versions of what happened and i really dont what to believe besides that there was a scuffle...to suggest
otherwise would be conjecture

Still believe that the shooting was unjustified

But i will go through some of the older threads, links i was given though

Im open to the possibility of ow being innocent i just havent come across any credible evidence that suggest that he acted within reason

What happened when mb and ow came face to face after the foot chase is what the case hinges on

Glad i joined though

U all seem like a smart, fair minded bunch

What do you all think about the video of the guys where a man can be heard yelling "he had his hands up"?

If you are going to spend some time in a thread, this will be the best one in terms of info and it's much easier to find things.

We have the best Mods that worked really hard on this.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...el-Brown-*Media-Timelines-Maps*-No-Discussion

 

[DebinGA]

Bizarre shooting in Savannah, GA where black suspect was handcuffed behind his back, placed in cruiser, kicked out window, escaped, and was shot dead because he supposedly had a gun. Protests followed, but the protest leader, the NAACP prez, claims it won't be like Ferguson and offers a sort of "We'll show y'all how these things should be done" promise.

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/breaki...-in-wake-of-savannah-sho/nhQ4d/?__federated=1

 

[Linda7NJ]

Its not fair to refer to mb size when we dont know dw size... at least i dont

Dorian did lie first about the robbery at first, im sure he didnt want to incriminate himself. Dont think its just cause to toss out his testimony. And his account of what happened between ow and mb at the suv is corrobborated by tiffany mitchell

That is why i continue to refer to happened at the suv as the scuffle because there are multiple versions of what happened and i really dont what to believe besides that there was a scuffle...to suggest
otherwise would be conjecture

Still believe that the shooting was unjustified

But i will go through some of the older threads, links i was given though

Im open to the possibility of ow being innocent i just havent come across any credible evidence that suggest that he acted within reason

What happened when mb and ow came face to face after the foot chase is what the case hinges on

Glad i joined though

U all seem like a smart, fair minded bunch

What do you all think about the video of the guys where a man can be heard yelling "he had his hands up"?

IMO it doesn't hinge on just the part where Wilson and Brown are face to face. It was all one continuous event for Wilson. Legally, if he was in fear...the shoot was justified.
Wilson had a sworn duty to apprehend or stop Brown by any means necessary after he was assaulted & punched in the face.


It's truly a shame Brown is dead. His mom worked so hard to see him graduate, was so hopeful he would go off to college. Brown made deadly mistakes that day.

Landscaper guys video...one gave a very detailed interview to the local paper there. Maybe someone else can link it for you. He states, Wilson was backing up while shooting and brown was moving towards him.


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[Muffet]

Chief Jackson was playing games with the video and changed or added to his story on multiple occasions. He at first said, ok I'll give you the cop's name but here's the video. Pretty much left it at that to allow people to think the two went together. Later questioned about it he said no, DW didn't know MB to be a robbery suspect at the time of the initial stop. Yet later again he changed or added to the story saying oh, yeah, but ummm DW came back later and at that time thought MB might have been the robbery suspect, which story doesn't jive with their own records

The bolded part is not true, as I have demonstrated several times in these threads with all his quotes and dates in context.

Once they came forward with the robbery video (as requested), the chief was consistent in his statements that Wilson did not know they were suspects when he *initially* stopped them, and he added that Wilson realized they matched the description during the encounter.



Regarding the underlined part, with all due respect, reedus, I would appreciate it kindly if, instead of continuing to say that as if it were "a fact" (your exact terms a few nights ago), you clarified that it is just your disbelief in what the chief says, especially since it's based on your admitted inability to either understand or relinquish doubt in the explanations of the timestamps we've given.

It's cool to disagree with me! lol, please just represent it as an opinion?

Bottom line: The chief said twice that Wilson thought MB could have been the suspect after the initial contact. He never went back on that.

I believe the chief based on:

A. My experience
B. His placing his word on the line on a significant issue after a week of interviews (not something like possibly mistaking yards vs feet in the immediate chaos of flying info.)

... And if that were not enough, then the lack of outcry by the Brown's attorneys or FBI, or anyone else other than peeps talking online.

 

[reedus23]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...el-Brown-*Media-Timelines-Maps*-No-Discussion

This is our timeline and media thread. Please feel free to read it to all the questions you might have.

Also where is it reported on MSM that it has been verified that MB was 100 foot from the SUV. I cannot find it anywhere other than rumors. This needs to be verified before any more discussion that 100 foot is based on fact.

Thanks, Lambchop

Well actually I think it was frydaddy that first determined it was actually closer to 130 feet. I don't know if it's rumors. People, including frydaddy, have looked at photos of where the vehicle was and where MB's body was and was able to measure it. I would be more than willing to literally go out with a tape measure though some time this weekend. Not being snarky. Being serious. If it would help, I would do it.

 

[SnoopyDawgDawg]

Not for this Rams game. I think they expect 'thousands' of global leaders during their big Ferguson weekend, october 13th. And I think, not sure, that is when the Rams are on Monday nighr football?...


...Beginning on October 9 thousands of leaders from around the country will arrive in Ferguson for training session. Saturday October 11 there will be a large mobilization march leading to “civil disobedience and major demonstrations at significant targets” on Monday October 13th.

http://obs-onthemove.org/featured/a-national-call-to-action-mass-mobe-in-ferguson/

Si. (And now I have the Rams schedule showing up in my search history! Oy! The things we have to do for the sake of accuracy on this site).

 

[reedus23]

^^^total man move!


You know I can't read red!


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Dammit. Soda out the nose. SOOOOOOOOOOOO sorry. Do other colors work? He did it in blue, can you see that? I wasn't sure what to do because I was making it 3 conversations in one.

 

[TheDuchess]

bbm

As my post said, that was hypothetical events re something that conceivably make some ppl do a 180, away from being justified shooting.
I have no info about ODW's personal or professional life, aside from the MSM I've seen & read.
If there had been dirt in his HR jacket, seems like we might have heard about it by now, but not necessarily.
I'm not saying that absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

ITA, what happened [whatever distance] from cruiser is hinge-pin of justified or unjustified.

If the two of us could sit together watching HD vid from 10 cameras and listen to surround sound of those 2-3-4-5min,
we might agree on justified or unjustified.

Lacking that, I look forward to forensic evidence and hope it's more enlightening than witness interviews w MSM.

jm2cts.

OK-so here goes!

Like many, I came here outraged that an innocent unarmed young man was shot to death simply for walking down the middle of the road in broad daylight. After several outrageous stories about police brutality (namely the one in New York where the man was put in a chokhold and died.) Well...I've come a long way baby. It was through a series of revelations that I had come to believe that not only was this NOT a case of police brutality, but in fact, just the opposite. This is one of the clearest cases of a justifiable shooting I ever remember seeing. Sure, you can take one fact alone and see it as unjustified - young kid, recent grad, unarmed, may have had his hands in the air at some point, etc... But once you put together the entire picture, it is clear as day what happened here and I have gone from thinking that the cop was a racist cold blooded murderer to believing that OW is a hero and a VICTIM. A victim of MB, then further victimized by the people he serves, by the media and by politicians. He has had to go into hiding for simply doing his job. He has been called a murderer and a racist and I think it is pretty clear he is neither of those. (Honestly, how many white cops in a black neighborhood have not one complaint on their record in 6 years???)

Now, in order to turn me around to the opposite? I don't know because I am pretty gosh darned confident based on the incredible amount of information I have seen that supports a justified shooting, but I'll try.

If I learned that there actually was a bunch of unknown instances of brutality and/or racism in his past that showed a pattern? I'd probably become a little more suspicious and probably much less sympathetic. If I learend that his initial statement actually did state that he held some culpability or perhaps that he had confessed to someone after the fact that he shot MB out of anger or something like that? Perhaps if I found out that he admitted shooting him while his hands were up and he was surrendering?

A video of the shooting might help. I'd probably need some audio of MB saying "please don't shoot me" and then OW shooting him anyway without any forward movement by MB? At this point, it would obviously take a lot.

But here is the thing. Regardless of the outcome of this, I trust in the process. While I have seen many a person I felt guilty "get off" I haven't seen a lot of people get railroaded in such a famous case like this. But in the end, I would trust that the process worked. That after looking at all of the evidence, the GJ chooses to indict, OK, I'd probaly watch the trial carefully. If he ended up being convicted in the end, OK, well I would have to trust that 12 people were really convinced in his guilt.

But I don't feel that many on the "other side" would ever go there. Every time something comes out that takes away part of their narrative, some just dig their heels in deeper and are willing to ignore or accept the damning information. The video shouldn't have been released (rather than taking it for what it shows.) Then a strong armed robbery became "shoplifting." The unabashed refusal to get out of the middle of a busy road with a double yellow stripe down the middle became "Jay Walking." The assault on OW became a "tussle" that he ran away from (after originally being described as OW trying to pull him into the car!) The drugs in his system (well, it's just pot and makes people more mellow - yet 10 minutes earlier he strong arm robbed a store.) I think that most reasonable people would fold at some point and walk away. I think many have. Yet there are still so many that just refuse to allow anything to change their minds. They are angry at racism and police brutality and someone needs to pay. They have their man now and won't let go no matter how innocent he might be. I doesn't matter to them. They have to see someone pay and it really doesn't matter who.

I will leave on this. Remember one thing here. First thing is that any lawyer with any sense knows that it is very unlikely that OW will even be indicted let alone convicted of anything serious in this case. But yet they keep calling for an arrest. They need an arrest because an arrest will allow for a civil case to be filed. Without one, they've got nothing.

WHEW!

 

[Muffet]

Whew! Looks like I landed in a hot zone tonight! Lol I have a lot to catch up on, but thanks to everyone for all honest posts, from either "side", and to LambChop for all her hard work and patience herding us cats! :grouphug:

 

[Linda7NJ]

Dammit. Soda out the nose. SOOOOOOOOOOOO sorry. Do other colors work? He did it in blue, can you see that? I wasn't sure what to do because I was making it 3 conversations in one.

Lmao!
Bold works for me, I'm on my iPhone using tapatalk,
Seriously, you don't have to accommodate me...unless you want me to read it, I'm just teasing you!


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[Lovejac]

They still need guidance as to the law and the charges so they can determine if the facts and the evidence support those charges. As for MB the aggressor or attempting to kill him, that only sets the background of the story. Question is whether or not, after that (assuming it's true for arguments sake) was MB still a threat or had he surrendered to arrest.

We had discussed (many threads back) what constitutes surrender. Personally, I don't consider advancing towards an officer, who you just assaulted and tried to take a loaded weapon from, even with your hands up is surrendering.

If I were to ever need to surrender under those exact circumstances, I would immediately lay down on the pavement on my stomach with my arms stretched out.

 

[reedus23]

Oh reedus!

Do you really think that a man who assaulted a police officer and tried to take his gun is not a threat to the general public?

If he would do that to a police officer, what would he do to a regular person on the street?

We already saw what he did to that poor shopkeeper 10 minutes before

Cops don't get to just shoot people because they are miscreants. There are countless people who have done the same or worse. Doesn't give carte blanch to shoot them. The threat to the public has to be an articulable threat at the time of the shooting, not some generalized threat of "Well he's a gang banger so it wouldn't shock me if he carjacked someone." To me, an articulable threat is, he has a gun, he's verbally threatening people, he's doing something in that moment in time of the fatal shots that created an articulable or immediate threat to someone else.

And for the obvious but ironic part....ask all the residents of Canfield Apartments who posed a bigger threat to them, MB or OW? Who did they fear more? Yes, I know, completely irrelevant from a legal perspective, but from a societal point of view, it is pretty ironic.

 

[Linda7NJ]

OK-so here goes!

The Duchess

----

Exceptional post!
You're feelings mirror my own.

This was the wrong case,

 

[Lovejac]

Where does the CRS derive its power to "insist" on dos or don'ts regarding a locality's city council meeting?

I's really like the answer to that question as well. Maybe because Community Relations Service is a division of the U.S. Department of Justice?

 

[al66pine]

But by Friday, a little-known unit of the U.S. Department of Justice had gotten involved, and those meetings, originally billed by Mayor James Knowles as a dialogue with the community “so they know exactly where we stand on things with full transparency,” would be closed to the media and nearly anyone else who wasn’t a resident.
********************************************************************************
There it is in black and white WHO is responsible for the change. Mark my words, the Mayor et al will be blamed for this.

==================================================================================
From above link, posted ~1 hr ago:
"City Attorney Stephanie Karr said she believed the decision to restrict attendance to residents and certain invited guests at the town hall meetings doesn’t violate Missouri’s Sunshine Law because only two council members would be present at each meeting. Without a quorum, such gatherings of council members do not violate the state’s open meetings requirements, Karr said.
Karr, however, also said that the city would not do anything to keep reporters from attending, but that would be up to the Department of Justice." bbm

Ok, I get the part about no violation of Mo Sunshine law,
Ditto the part about restricting to residents
Maybe get the part about invited guests

But who keeps media out (when half ppl there will/can record meeting on smart phones?)
Who gets blame for keeping media out?

 

[reedus23]

In St. Louis County, all homicide cases go before a grand jury, according to the county prosecutor’s office."
http://www.latimes.com/nation/natio...ry-ferguson-michael-brown-20140820-story.html

And, in preparation:

Although the term homicide is sometimes used synonymously with murder, homicide is broader in scope than murder. Murder is a form of criminal homicide; other forms of homicide might not constitute criminal acts. These homicides are regarded as justified or excusable.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/homicide

I think that is poor reporting. I know for a fact that not all homicides go to a grand jury. What is true is that all homicides in which criminal charges are sought go to a grand jury in St. Louis County. They don't use a preliminary hearing when seeking charges on a homicide. I think seedz point was that if they don't believe there is enough evidence to suggest an unjustified shooting, why go to the grand jury at all? I would agree with that. If there weren't enough to raise a question, it wouldn't be fair to OW to take it to a grand jury.

 

[Lovejac]

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...tml?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

I just noticed this as well:

A City Council meeting on Sept. 9, held at the Greater Grace Church to accommodate the large crowd, was disrupted several times by angry chants from protesters, some of whom were not from Ferguson.

Another council meeting is scheduled for Tuesday. On Friday, Knowles said the city was still exploring possible venues for that meeting.