MO MO - St Louis, BlkFem 8-11, 54UFMO, in abandoned bldg, Feb'83

[Snufamonbobball]

I disagree that it was Alton. Although some things seem to fit, I have something to say here. You DON'T start out beheading a small child and moving to just strangeling and not removing heads. You start out just raping and murdering and move ON to cutting off heads. I could be wrong but that's what I think. You don't start out doing the worst and move on to lesser charges. I think this girl was someone's LAST victim, not their first or second.

I respectfully disagree with you regarding the progression of killers. Each is unique, Dahmer's first victim, was beyond mutilated, and I know of other killers who were serial and not serial who mutilated their 1st victim- many of those were also children themselves.

My thought of Alton Coleman was not assigning this victim to him, just a person who I think COULD HAVE been involved.

I suggest you look closer at Alton- He was out of prison at the time of this murder. He left bodies inside abandoned buildings in mainly poor, African-American areas of cities. His history of violence is extensive and started well before 1983. He raped and murdered African American girls in this age range. He used strangulation as a manner of death. He was from the midwest. He moved bodies from one state to another.

I in no way think that a theory someone has should be discounted just because I think differently. Alton Coleman may have already been ruled out as the offender in this case- I don't know... in the end though, I think we both have the same goal. Finding her name and giving it back to her.

Here is Alton Coleman's complete (as far as they know) criminal history. It details each of his crimes, I think this is his appeal for clemency- it is an interesting look into the crimes of an absolute sociopath if nothing else. Last thing- Debra Brown WAS NOT Coleman's first accomplice.

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache...ims+of+alton+coleman&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

I just realized Clark was sentenced to death in Feb. 1983- the same month this child was found, so he was incarcerated at the time of this murder.

http://www.francesfarmersrevenge.com/stuff/serialkillers/clarkbundy.htm

 

[not_my_kids]

Snufamonbobball - Alton might be worth looking into more. It certainly couldn't hurt. Would you like the lead detective's email? It's easier than getting hold of him by phone. I figure since you found Alton, you know more about his case history and stuff than I do, so it might be better if you turned it in.

 

[Snufamonbobball]

There are a couple of other things that point me to Coleman. His grandmother practiced voodoo. He was forced to obtain and kill the animals for her rituals, perhaps that is where the removal of the neck comes from.

He felt as if voodoo spirits were protecting him. Could her head have been used in a quasi- voodoo thing?

After Coleman was caught, he made a big deal about how he had to kill African- Americans, he said he would have been noticed otherwise. I firmly believe that whomever killed this child would have had to fit into this neighborhood.

The big question is where did this girl come from. Coleman was adept at manipulating people into trusting them with their children. He has killed another mother and daughter pair, so it is possible this girl's mother was also murdered. Debra Brown did know him at the time of this murder. She could have been a friend of hers. There are a lot of different variables- and in the end I could be totally wrong. There just seem to be a lot of things that "fit" him very well- but I am always open to new ideas.

New ideas are what solve cold cases.

 

[not_my_kids]

I have wondered if the unusual style of the beheading (that statement makes me shudder) could have been related to voodoo, or military practice in a different country. I forced myself to watch the beheading of Danny Pearl video, just so I could see if the style was similar. It's not, and I didn't sleep for a week.
I have been leaning more towards a voodoo connection, since I haven't found a country that routinely takes the head and neck.
ETA: Where I was going with that was that it did point to Alton in that respect. And his whereabout are apparently unknown between 9-1981 and 7-1983. Time frame would work.

Edit again: and Alton seemed to start focusing on younger black kids in 1983. That could be telling. He might have finally found the thing that satisfied the fantasies and calmed him for a time.

 

[Snufamonbobball]

She has the saddest headstone...http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=11537499

 

[mae]

That is a sad headstone. No name, no birth date.

A connection to voodoo could be something along the lines of the shrunken head.

I remember reading this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4703328.stm
""Severe stated that she had obtained the package, which contained a human head, from a male in Haiti for use as part of her voodoo beliefs," the US Attorney's Office said in a statement."

I also found this
"Talismans are bought and sold as fetishes. These could be statues representing voodoo gods, dried animal heads, or other body parts."
http://www.allabouttheoccult.org/voodoo-religion.htm Not an educational site or a site I am recommending. I just thought it made a good point about body parts being talismans and fetishes in voodoo. I am going to have to find a more reputable source for this information.

It could have been a substitute for something you can buy:
"the realistic Black Fetish Head used for Magic Art practice for the Voodoo or Santeria traditions and ritual practice."

 

[not_my_kids]

From the FindaGrave comments:
Forget-Me-Not ... On April 26, I attemped to find her grave, with bitter results. The park is overgrown partially; some markers are in the undergrowth and impossible to reach; some stones are toppled facedown ... over an hour of searching revealed no find. Since it was Sunday, I could get no burial records -- plus the office building has been abandoned and is about to fall in ..... I don't give up easily. I'll try other avenues in the future. SHE NEEDS TO BE REMEMBERED ... KWH

That is just sad. I'm due in MO in 2 weeks, I might just have to go find her grave and pull some weeds, plant a flower or two.

 

[not_my_kids]

Do you think if maybe there were someone that were willing to donate another stone, and it could get some coverage from the local media before hand, that it has been long enough that it might draw someone out. They may feel safe or comfortable enough after all this time? I'd cough up a few hundred on that long shot.
Not to mention that it would be worth it to give her something with a name on it, even if the last name is Doe and represents how many lives she has touched.

 

[mae]

Is it possible the commenter just never located it? I am occasionally in that area. I will have to try to get over to look. I wish I could go asap or was closer.

I think you could always ask people to pitch in or to run a fundraiser too and try to get media attention. You just need need a few people to make it happen. And I think you make a good point about attention and possible talk. You could always feel out local media outlets beforehand.

Is there an Alton Coleman thread? Reading his clemency report has heinous. I was unfamiliar with him. His crimes are all over the place.

 

[mae]

There are a couple of other things that point me to Coleman. His grandmother practiced voodoo. He was forced to obtain and kill the animals for her rituals, perhaps that is where the removal of the neck comes from.

He felt as if voodoo spirits were protecting him. Could her head have been used in a quasi- voodoo thing?

There are not a lot of in depth online resources about voodoo (which is used to refer to the New Orleans version apparently). Or vodun (west africa roots) or vodou (haitian roots) as I am learning.

We could ask here
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.orisha/topics?pli=1

This book would be interesting:
Provost, Gary. Across the Border: The True Story of the Satanic Cult Killings in Matamoros, Mexico. New York: Pocket Books, 1989. Call Number: HV 6535 .M63 M37 1989
Abstract: Provides a detailed overview of the drug-related cult killings that took place at Matamoros, Mexico in Spring 1989. Important in its in-depth discussion of distinguishing features of rituals related to Santeria, Palo Mayombe, Voodoo, and Satanism. Discusses the immediate aftermath of the killings in terms of its effect on the American psyche and consequent alarmist perceptions of the rise of Satanist influence.

 

[Spurser]

Do you think if maybe there were someone that were willing to donate another stone, and it could get some coverage from the local media before hand, that it has been long enough that it might draw someone out. They may feel safe or comfortable enough after all this time? I'd cough up a few hundred on that long shot.
Not to mention that it would be worth it to give her something with a name on it, even if the last name is Doe and represents how many lives she has touched.

I'll pitch in too. My heart breaks for her.

 

[Spurser]

Is it possible the commenter just never located it? I am occasionally in that area. I will have to try to get over to look. I wish I could go asap or was closer.

I think you could always ask people to pitch in or to run a fundraiser too and try to get media attention. You just need need a few people to make it happen. And I think you make a good point about attention and possible talk. You could always feel out local media outlets beforehand.

Is there an Alton Coleman thread? Reading his clemency report has heinous. I was unfamiliar with him. His crimes are all over the place.

I read a book about him when I was a teenager. Scared the willies out of me. He was a truly evil person. Correction, he can't really be classified as a human being.

 

[Snufamonbobball]

http://www.bnd.com/breaking_news/story/1024447.html
She is being exhumed and is going to be moved to a cemetery that isn't abandoned. She will also get a new coffin. I hope they will take DNA while she is being moved.

Please take a moment to read about the organization that has taken her under their wings. Many of us said we would like to contribute for a new headstone for this child, here is our opportunity to help.

http://www.gardenofinnocents.org/

May this child rest in peace.:angel:

 

[not_my_kids]

Just for the record, I never got to MO, things came up here that had to be dealt with.

I might eventually get there, but traveling is one of those things that very often gets interrupted for me.

 

[not_my_kids]

I have made a submission, I will just copy and paste the email here. It's not for an identity, but for a lower jaw found.

I know that usually, a match is submitted between the missing and the unidentified. However, this time, I am intrigued by these two sets of remains and wonder if they may not come from the same person.

https://identifyus.org/cases/3199
This is an 8-11 year old black female child found in St. Louis, MO on 2/28/1983. Her body was recovered, her head was not.


https://identifyus.org/cases/5302
This is the lower jaw of a 10-22 year old found in Fulton Co. GA on 5/28/2009. Race and gender unknown. I noticed that in the ruleouts for this jaw, there are cases dating back as far as 1983, so I thought I would suggest the possibility.

The detective that has the case of the girl in MO really has worked exhaustively, and if the jaw were not a recent find, I might not even consider it. But I do not know if he regularly checks for parts of skulls found.

Feel free to contact me if need be, and if possible, please let me know if this has been discounted already. Thank you for your time.
(Offline name and phone number redacted by me)

I know - I sound like a dork...I'll let you know what they say.

 

[sleepface11]

Too bad Vernon Brown refused to talk about any other possible crimes before he was executed - he seems very likely, IMO.

http://www.skcentral.com/articles.php?article_id=517

Yes, I think Brown probably did this. I did some searching and found this site http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/US/brown967.htm
I am from St. Louis and onced lived relatively close to where Doe's body was found. Although Brown has been executed, his crimes are similar to that of Doe's. He had previously dumped a body in a dumpster behind his house, which is a possibility as to why her head has never been found. Looking at a google map, there is a park and playground within walking distance of where Brown lived in 86. hmm.

 

[Billylee]

Just finished reading about this case, just makes me sick. The Namus site shows no rule outs yet. Does anyone know if Kelly Juanita Staples has been ruled out? She would have been the right age, was abducted in Illinois in 1980 when she was 6.

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/staples_kelly.html

 

[Snufamonbobball]

Last I knew, Kelly Staples had not been ruled out. Not My Kids might have more information on any new exclusions.

 

[Billylee]

http://www.riverfronttimes.com/2004-12-01/news/the-case-that-haunts/


I read this article and maybe it's already here, but something bugged me, they said they found a white substance of what they thought was semen on her stomach (I suppose they could have done a dna analysis on that?), but then they said it wasn't. Two questions, firstly, if it wasn't semen, what was it? Did it get analyzed? Second, it says she was raped, then strangled, then decapitated; so would they not have dna from the semen inside her? OR, does that mean it was more than five days? Just asking some questions that are running through my mind. Also, wanted to mention that it says that her death was around 5 days before, that would have been a Thursday and the prior weekend would have been a holiday 3-day one, with Monday being the day off; just puttin' that info out there, in case someone recognizes a pattern.

 

[2sisters]

How exact is it when age is determined on an unidentified victim? I looked at the crime scene photos briefly that were posted and i just think she looks older. I know some kids are tall of course but the size of her legs just looks more like a teenager young adult.