Molested with the handle?

[BOESP]

I am thinking about the molestation and the staging to cover it up. I have mixed feelings about the sexual aspect of it. ... How does this scenario sound to you:
The family returns home from the White's. JBR walks into the house (as per BR's statement). PR is tired and stressed, ....

DeeDee, your scenario is almost identical to what I think happened, although I'm not satisfied about when Patsy woke John. Maybe she tried to cover things on her own, thinking she'd never tell a soul and could pull off an "Intruder Did It" plan. The fibers consistent with those of John's black shirt that was worn to the Whites then found on JonBenet's remains could have gotten there when he went to the basement at 11:00 AM but that is not likely is it.

During the 911 call Burke is overheard to say "What did you find?" That could imply that Burke overheard a parent saying "I found this note" (or similar words). So, that makes me think that either Patsy or John was still in the dark at that moment and trying to convince the other one that something had just been found, which I presume to be the ransom note. Maybe Burke only heard parts of a conversation that went on the order of, "I can say I found the note right here" or "Where do we need to 'find' this?" I'd like to know more about why Burke said that.

John was so quiet and studious during the first weeks/months while Patsy jabbered away on television. Then after many months there was a turnaround and John became the talkative one who barely allowed Patsy to answer direct questions. It was almost like he had a personality change. John did not act like the protective husband at the correct time, in my opinion.

I agree almost 100% with your scenario. As you can tell, John is my main problem. I don't think he was a child molester and I don't think he killed JonBenet. I think he probably helped with the coverup no later than the morning of the 26th and maybe the night before.

I appreciate, too, everyone's responses yesterday in sharing their ideas. It is a sorry shame that no one has been prosecuted for this little girl's death. I think everything was "handled internally" via family and church.

I think it was you, DeeDee, who suggested that Patsy's last talk with Linda Arndt was Patsy's last effort at protecting herself from what John might do after Patsy died. What was it that Patsy's tombstone said, "Love, grace, and loyalty to the end" --- that last part is interesting. I don't know Ms. Arndt so I don't know when/if she will write the book. I sure wish she would.

 

[BOESP]

I recall he said it as well.
UK is talking about the time Patsy was questioned about whether JR could have been abusing JB,and she said she'd 'thought about that',but that her mother had slept in JB's room with her and wouldn't have allowed it.WEIRD answer.

Thanks JMO. I suppose we should give citations but it doesn't seem necessary to me on a discussion board unless someone is making a new point. I just assumed most folks knew about John's purported statement about the Las Vegas pageant.

I don't think John really knew what all went on in his own home. Also, I did not take Patsy's remarks about Nedra sleeping in JonBenet's bedroom while Patsy took chemo to mean a whole lot. It sounded to me like it had never crossed Patsy's mind to even think that John was molesting JonBenet but I think the detective brought it up "to put a bug in Patsy's ear." In other words, the detective wanted Patsy to think about that possibility and, hopefully, open an opportunity for Patsy to start talking about any possible molestation. The detectives already knew somebody had abused JonBenet sexually so I think it was still a fishing game at that point, maybe even designed to get Patsy to break down and explain that she was the person who caused JonBenet's vaginal trauma. I'm just speculating here, but that's my idea at this point (it may change tomorrow ).

 

[UKGuy]

Thanks JMO. I suppose we should give citations but it doesn't seem necessary to me on a discussion board unless someone is making a new point. I just assumed most folks knew about John's purported statement about the Las Vegas pageant.

I don't think John really knew what all went on in his own home. Also, I did not take Patsy's remarks about Nedra sleeping in JonBenet's bedroom while Patsy took chemo to mean a whole lot. It sounded to me like it had never crossed Patsy's mind to even think that John was molesting JonBenet but I think the detective brought it up "to put a bug in Patsy's ear." In other words, the detective wanted Patsy to think about that possibility and, hopefully, open an opportunity for Patsy to start talking about any possible molestation. The detectives already knew somebody had abused JonBenet sexually so I think it was still a fishing game at that point, maybe even designed to get Patsy to break down and explain that she was the person who caused JonBenet's vaginal trauma. I'm just speculating here, but that's my idea at this point (it may change tomorrow ).

BOESP,
The Nedra remark was made in public, at a tv show or a press conference I forget?

I've always assumed John's alleged Las-Vegas remarks were anecdotal. At the St. Johns Church service on 29th Dec, John spoke of how he was wearing the medallion that JonBenet had won at her last pageant and how he emphasised to JonBenet the importance of the talent division at pageants, but went on to distance himself by saying he was no fan of pageants!

Also why bother about the Las vegas pageant, when your daughter has already appeared elsewhere dressed as a Las-Vegas Show Girl complete with wave by's etc, was he worried someone might molest her?

I reckon he knew what he was saying and why.

.

 

[UKGuy]

I am thinking about the molestation and the staging to cover it up. I have mixed feelings about the sexual aspect of it. I have NO doubt that there was vaginal trauma, both chronic and acute. But let's suppose PR was regularly using a douche on JBR, whether as "corporal cleansing" (i.e. punishment) or to cleanse the vaginal canal of feces from her frequent soiling. How does this scenario sound to you:

DeeDee249,
Its viable, I reckon Steve Thomas would agree with much of what you write?

Personally I do not think the Toilet Rage theory is consistent.

 

[Ames]

Ames,
Of course there is no intruder, removal of forensic traces, rather than the object containing them is a classic mistake of staged crime-scenes?

Another thought is the double bluff, where the Ramsey's speculate that if an intruder had notionally used the flashlight then there should be forensic traces, even if only smudges from gloves, so they wiped it clean to avoid showing this to be false e.g. no intruder traces!

Good point! They knew that if the flashlight was tested, that the only fingerprints, or evidence that would be found...would be their OWN fingerprints...and NOT those of an intruder. So they wiped it down...including the batteries (personally I think that they got a little bit carried away doing THAT!..LOL). Again I say...good...NO..EXCELLENT pont!!!

 

[UKGuy]

During the 911 call Burke is overheard to say "What did you find?" That could imply that Burke overheard a parent saying "I found this note" (or similar words). So, that makes me think that either Patsy or John was still in the dark at that moment and trying to convince the other one that something had just been found, which I presume to be the ransom note. Maybe Burke only heard parts of a conversation that went on the order of, "I can say I found the note right here" or "Where do we need to 'find' this?" I'd like to know more about why Burke said that.

BOESP,
It could also mean that one of the parents had hidden JonBenet's body, and the other had been asked to go and see if it could be found on a walk-through?

When JonBenet's body was evidently not going to be found, some people think John relocated JonBenet to the wine-cellar, this might explain whey she was missed earlier on?

 

[UKGuy]

Good point! They knew that if the flashlight was tested, that the only fingerprints, or evidence that would be found...would be their OWN fingerprints...and NOT those of an intruder. So they wiped it down...including the batteries (personally I think that they got a little bit carried away doing THAT!..LOL). Again I say...good...NO..EXCELLENT pont!!!

Ames,
Thanks. Now if this were true, then you have to wonder, assuming the toilet rage theory is true, why they left so much evidence that allowed a toilet related theory to be constructed?

 

[Ames]

maglites are huge though,and very heavy(except for the smaller ones),with a long handle (granted,I don't know exactly what size that one was),but just sticking one in your pocket isn't usually easily accomplished.

I don't think that UKGuy, literally means that the intruder could have put it in his pocket...I think that he/she is saying that it would have been easier for the intruder to have just used it to see with...and then taken it with him. (He would have needed to see once he got outside, in the dark..too.) And I agree...taking it out of the house would have taken alot less time, than wiping it down, and then removing the batteries, and wiping them down, too. (Speaking of which, some flashlights require a screwdriver to loosen the screws that hold the plastic over the batteries). That's precious time that "he" wasted, and could have been caught....instead of just leaving the house with it. He took everything else, why not the flashlight??

 

[Ames]

BOESP,
It could also mean that one of the parents had hidden JonBenet's body, and the other had been asked to go and see if it could be found on a walk-through?

When JonBenet's body was evidently not going to be found, some people think John relocated JonBenet to the wine-cellar, this might explain whey she was missed earlier on?

This is what I believe happened too. John relocated the body...so that she could be "found" easier.

 

[Solace]

BOESP,
It could also mean that one of the parents had hidden JonBenet's body, and the other had been asked to go and see if it could be found on a walk-through?

When JonBenet's body was evidently not going to be found, some people think John relocated JonBenet to the wine-cellar, this might explain whey she was missed earlier on?

UK,

With all due respect, that is far fetched doing a walk through to see if it could be found. It sounds like Evening2's theory (crimelibrary) that the Santa Claus portrayer did a trial run with the phone call to 911 on the 23rd.

I think Burke came down after John and Patsy came into his room and turned on the lights and John ran away after seeing he was okay. Burke likely got up and said what did you find and John said we were not talking to you.

Burke says this occurred (their coming into his room). So the question really is "Did John do this for Burke's benefit? or did John do this because he really did not know if Burke was gone also? If the latter is true, he was not aware of the murder earlier.

 

[BOESP]

BOESP,
It could also mean that one of the parents had hidden JonBenet's body, and the other had been asked to go and see if it could be found on a walk-through?

When JonBenet's body was evidently not going to be found, some people think John relocated JonBenet to the wine-cellar, this might explain whey she was missed earlier on?

I hadn't thought of that UKGuy. That very well could be. When Burke was interviewed I wonder if the 911 tape had been analyzed yet or if that came after his interview. Burke also remarked that he wouldn't tell "secrets" because they wouldn't be "secrets" any longer. That was an interesting comment. :waitasec:

 

[Ames]

Ames,
Thanks. Now if this were true, then you have to wonder, assuming the toilet rage theory is true, why they left so much evidence that allowed a toilet related theory to be constructed?

Well, I don't know. I think that they just were panicking during the staging of her body, and simply overlooked the urine on the long johns...because it was dark. I do believe that either HER sheets were washed...or that she slept in Burkes room that night, and HIS sheets were washed. He had two beds in his room, I am not sure which bed she slept in, when she slept in his room. So, I believe that they DID try to eliminate the obvious things that would have led the police to think that JB died from toilet rage, they just overlooked a couple of things, in their haste. IMO

 

[BOESP]

...
Burke says this occurred (their coming into his room). So the question really is "Did John do this for Burke's benefit? or did John do this because he really did not know if Burke was gone also? If the latter is true, he was not aware of the murder earlier.

That is a crucial part for determining John's involvement isn't it. Since John's reply "We're not talking to you" sounds harsh, it suggests to me that maybe he wasn't too worried about Burke after all. At first I thought John was just distracted and didn't want Burke bugging him while he tried to figure out what was going on and what to do next. However, if he only minutes earlier was worried about Burke being adducted so that he ran to check his room then why be so hateful to Burke when Burke comes downstairs? Why not say, "Son, JonBenet's gone. Was she in your room? Do you know where she is? Tell us if you heard anything."

Maybe John's tone of voice was not hateful but from what I heard on the on-line version of the tape, John sounded firm with a "bug off" tone of voice. Do you think that's consistent with a father who is glad to see that his son is okay?

 

[Ames]

Wiping the flashlight of prints is something that would be expected of both an intruder and the Rs.
Wiping the BATTERIES of prints as well is something that ONLY the Rs would have done. There would be no reason for an intruder to do this- they did not put the batteries in....unless anyone is silly enough to believe an intruder brought extra batteries with them in case the ones in the flashlight were dead (which an intruder would not have known the Rs had nor what kinds of batteries it would use). Boy, that "intruder" must have had a good place to hide the U-Haul truck they would have needed to bring in everything the Rs said didn't belong to them.

LOL....believe it or not, some IDI's believe that the intruder not only lucked up, and found the flashlight, in the drawer where it was kept. BUT ALSO...when he realized that the batteries were dead, he somehow managed to find the drawer where the batteries were kept, and he replaced the dead ones. !!! Here is my question...why wouldn't an intruder bring his OWN flashlight?? According to the IDI's..he brought everything else that he needed with him. I guess that "he" just assumed that the Ramsey's had one, and that he could search until he found it...and that the batteries worked, and that if they didn't, he could find the drawer where the new ones were kept. And that after he used it, e could just take the time needed, to wipe it down AND the batteries, and then place it on the kitchen counter, for the whole world to see. (Just bring your own, and leave with it.... for goodness sakes).

 

[Ames]

That is a crucial part for determining John's involvement isn't it. Since John's reply "We're not talking to you" sounds harsh, it suggests to me that maybe he wasn't too worried about Burke after all. At first I thought John was just distracted and didn't want Burke bugging him while he tried to figure out what was going on and what to do next. However, if he only minutes earlier was worried about Burke being adducted so that he ran to check his room then why be so hateful to Burke when Burke comes downstairs? Why not say, "Son, JonBenet's gone. Was she in your room? Do you know where she is? Tell us if you heard anything."

Maybe John's tone of voice was not hateful but from what I heard on the on-line version of the tape, John sounded firm with a "bug off" tone of voice. Do you think that's consistent with a father who is glad to see that his son is okay?

NOPE! I think that he ran into Burke's room, for Burke's benefit...just in case Burke heard all of the commotion, and had woke up.

 

[BOESP]

LOL....believe it or not, some IDI's believe that the intruder not only lucked up, and found the flashlight, in the drawer where it was kept. BUT ALSO...when he realized that the batteries were dead, he somehow managed to find the drawer where the batteries were kept, and he replaced the dead ones. !!! Here is my question...why wouldn't an intruder bring his OWN flashlight?? According to the IDI's..he brought everything else that he needed with him. I guess that "he" just assumed that the Ramsey's had one, and that he could search until he found it...and that the batteries worked, and that if they didn't, he could find the drawer where the new ones were kept. And that after he used it, e could just take the time needed, to wipe it down AND the batteries, and then place it on the kitchen counter, for the whole world to see. (Just bring your own, and leave with it.... for goodness sakes).

Ames, I think some say that only someone who knew where the flashlight was kept could have found it. I would think an Intruder who could get around long enough to find a flashlight probably didn't need a flashlight, especially since the spiral staircase, according to Patsy, had lights left on for night-light purposes. Nope, the Ramseys made a big mistake in leaving out the flashlight and wiping the batteries. Most investigators would probably have assumed that the strange lights reported probably belonged to the Intruder and his own flashlight that he brought with him and removed on exit. Finding a flashlight in a home with the family prints on it isn't incriminating. Instead, the Ramseys goofed and gave the investigation team more evidence of staging.

 

[BOESP]

NOPE! I think that he ran into Burke's room, for Burke's benefit...just in case Burke heard all of the commotion, and had woke up.

I agree. That's the only thing that explains John's failure to respond in a positive way to Burke during the 911 call and the only thing that explains why John didn't ask Burke questions about did he see JonBenet, did he hear anything, etc.

You know what. I think you all have convinced me that John knew what was going on as early as the 911 call. I'm feeling confident about that now. Thanks for the great discussion. Now if I can settle in my mind about who molested JonBenet and if the molestation played a part in her death I'll be able to let this rest (much to the delight of many I'm sure ).

 

[Ames]

Ames, I think some say that only someone who knew where the flashlight was kept could have found it. I would think an Intruder who could get around long enough to find a flashlight probably didn't need a flashlight, especially since the spiral staircase, according to Patsy, had lights left on for night-light purposes. Nope, the Ramseys made a big mistake in leaving out the flashlight and wiping the batteries. Most investigators would probably have assumed that the strange lights reported probably belonged to the Intruder and his own flashlight that he brought with him and removed on exit. Finding a flashlight in a home with the family prints on it isn't incriminating. Instead, the Ramseys goofed and gave the investigation team more evidence of staging.

Yep, I agree. The wiped down flashlight, I am sure...was very incriminating to the investigation team. I know that it was to me. That, to me...was the nail in the Ramsey's coffin. Too bad, Patsy died a free woman..and John is still able to be a free man.

I don't think for one second, that an intruder was able to come into that large Ramsey home, and find a flashlight....AND batteries for it. The Rams should have just placed it back in the drawer, after they used it. Wiping it, and the flashlight down....is just a "tad" suspicious to me. Like I said 100 times before, an intruder would have brought one in, and taken it with him when he left.

 

[Ames]

I agree. That's the only thing that explains John's failure to respond in a positive way to Burke during the 911 call and the only thing that explains why John didn't ask Burke questions about did he see JonBenet, did he hear anything, etc.

You know what. I think you all have convinced me that John knew what was going on as early as the 911 call. I'm feeling confident about that now. Thanks for the great discussion. Now if I can settle in my mind about who molested JonBenet and if the molestation played a part in her death I'll be able to let this rest (much to the delight of many I'm sure ).

You are not alone on that one....I waffle back and forth...back and forth...JB was molested...JB was NOT molested...JB WAS molested....by John....no, by her grandfather....no by John. Its driving me NUTS!!!

 

[JMO8778]

During the 911 call Burke is overheard to say "What did you find?" That could imply that Burke overheard a parent saying "I found this note" (or similar words). So, that makes me think that either Patsy or John was still in the dark at that moment and trying to convince the other one that something had just been found, which I presume to be the ransom note. Maybe Burke only heard parts of a conversation that went on the order of, "I can say I found the note right here" or "Where do we need to 'find' this?" I'd like to know more about why Burke said that.

good thought,I hadn't thought about that.I also wonder if BR heard Patsy talking about finding the note to the 911 operator ..at first she says '..there's a ran...there's a note left and our daughter is gone'.Later in the call,she flat out calls it a ransom note.Maybe this confused BR,and so he asks 'what did you find?' (I know he was said to put emphasis on 'did').

John was so quiet and studious during the first weeks/months while Patsy jabbered away on television. Then after many months there was a turnaround and John became the talkative one who barely allowed Patsy to answer direct questions. It was almost like he had a personality change. John did not act like the protective husband at the correct time, in my opinion.

I agree,and Patsy's constant talking was a huge sign of her guilt,IMO,just as OJ's bronco ride was.It's like she was trying to convince herself there *was an intruder.
I think they both got a grip,in time,so to speak,and wised up.At that point,JR started doing all the talking...to me,that speaks volumes about Patsy's guilt.