Molested with the handle?

[BOESP]

JMO8778,

Well cellulose is a birefringement material, or bi-refractive, e.g. it splits light into directions with different velocities.

What is curious, is its likely that Coroner Meyer had access to, or used, a polarized light microscope, otherwise he could not have stated the sample was birefringement material. So you would expect some comparison to be done on the other pieces of paintbrush to confirm if this was the source?

Also that Steve Thomas does not tell us that there is no missing piece, or that the paintbrush used had signs of been broken before, suggests to me that this is relevant, in fact Steve Thomas in his book offers minimal information, and glides past this subject quickly.

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I think Dr. Meyer used "birefringent" to describe a shiny, reflective bit of matter. Since his job was to recover evidence from the body and give an official judgment on mode and manner of death, I don't think we can assume he made the official determination about what the minute matter was. I speculate that protocol called for minute physical evidence be sent to criminologists for an official determination and they made a separate report.

I've heard "splinter" and "cellulose" used by various people though I haven't seen anything that states either term meant the birefringent material found by the medical examiner. It seems to be a debatable point. :waitasec:

At the time Steve Thomas wrote his book I don't think he knew if there was a missing piece or not. It is missing as far as we know but only important if it was used to molest JonBenet or if it would eventually be found in possession of the killer. I can't see a killer taking the end piece and leaving the other two pieces at the scene. There were too many personal items on JonBenet that, in my opinion, could have been taken as a trophy, such as her necklace and/or bracelet. I speculate the necklace would have been the trophy of choice since the killer used ligature strangulation. However, if one believes a trophy was taken, in my mind, that eliminates a small foreign faction killing for revenge on John -- they aren't interested in trophies.

 

[JMO8778]

BOESP,since Thomas had access to the evidence,surely he would know whether anything more than a small splinter was left inside her?
I think either the brush was broken previous to that night,or that piece was removed,along w. the size 6 underwear,rope and tape(IF there was any more),by one of the R's,or hidden and retrieved later by PP.

 

[UKGuy]

sure,and I have to agree w. Thomas,it's doubtful to have come from anywhere else.
But if it WAS the handle,or part of it...that would have been easy to assess,wouldn't it? part of it could be matched to the rest of the brush,like a puzzle piece.
Also note the word TINY...a paintbrush handle isn't tiny.
And since the cellulose splinter was very *tiny....that's all the more reason it couldn't be definitively matched to the rest of the brush...it must have been very,very small.

well,see above.IMO,there is enough info to presume that wasn't the case,whether it had been broken b/f or not.
I'm not sure he glided past it quickly on purpose though..if there was no other info on it,why dwell? get on to other matters,which he did.

JMO8778,
You may be correct, Steve Thomas may have known there was no missing piece of paintbrush handle, but did not consider it important enough to make it public knowledge?

IMO, if the splinter is all that was recovered then the case for sexual staging is strengthened.


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[UKGuy]

I think Dr. Meyer used "birefringent" to describe a shiny, reflective bit of matter. Since his job was to recover evidence from the body and give an official judgment on mode and manner of death, I don't think we can assume he made the official determination about what the minute matter was. I speculate that protocol called for minute physical evidence be sent to criminologists for an official determination and they made a separate report.

I've heard "splinter" and "cellulose" used by various people though I haven't seen anything that states either term meant the birefringent material found by the medical examiner. It seems to be a debatable point. :waitasec:

At the time Steve Thomas wrote his book I don't think he knew if there was a missing piece or not. It is missing as far as we know but only important if it was used to molest JonBenet or if it would eventually be found in possession of the killer. I can't see a killer taking the end piece and leaving the other two pieces at the scene. There were too many personal items on JonBenet that, in my opinion, could have been taken as a trophy, such as her necklace and/or bracelet. I speculate the necklace would have been the trophy of choice since the killer used ligature strangulation. However, if one believes a trophy was taken, in my mind, that eliminates a small foreign faction killing for revenge on John -- they aren't interested in trophies.

BOESP,

I think Dr. Meyer used "birefringent" to describe a shiny, reflective bit of matter. ,

The phrase birefringent material is technical, unlike shiny, reflective bit of matter which is wholly descriptive. The birefringent index, which is the difference between the two exiting velocities, can accurately identify samples as the same.

Currently the status of the missing piece of paintbrush is unknown!


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[BOESP]

BOESP,

The phrase birefringent material is technical, unlike shiny, reflective bit of matter which is wholly descriptive. The birefringent index, which is the difference between the two exiting velocities, can accurately identify samples as the same.

Currently the status of the missing piece of paintbrush is unknown!


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I understand what you are saying UKGuy but most everything will refract or reflect light at a given speed (thus, as you said, the ability to identify something by a reflective index). The medical examiner's use of the term "birefringent material" is vague. Whether purposeful or expedient, I have no clue.

My interpretation is the autopsy implies a material with dual unequal reflective qualities. Knowing that detectives asked about glitter, the first thing that pops into my mind is holographic glitter. Of course, varnish or certain paints that might have chipped off Patsy's paint brush could also have "dual reflective qualities." In fact, it could be most anything. I just don't have enough information to say for sure what the ME referred to.

 

[UKGuy]

I understand what you are saying UKGuy but most everything will refract or reflect light at a given speed (thus, as you said, the ability to identify something by a reflective index). The medical examiner's use of the term "birefringent material" is vague. Whether purposeful or expedient, I have no clue.

My interpretation is the autopsy implies a material with dual unequal reflective qualities. Knowing that detectives asked about glitter, the first thing that pops into my mind is holographic glitter. Of course, varnish or certain paints that might have chipped off Patsy's paint brush could also have "dual reflective qualities." In fact, it could be most anything. I just don't have enough information to say for sure what the ME referred to.

BOESP,

The medical examiner's use of the term "birefringent material" is vague. Whether purposeful or expedient, I have no clue.

Birefringent is different from being refractive and not all materials are birefringent, some require other methods for identification. Coroner Meyer's use of the term birefringent was unlikely to be used in a loose and non-techicnal sense since he was compiling an autopsy report? Since Steve Thomas identifies a material as a splinter made of cellulose which is birefringent, and was recovered internally from JonBenet, it seems safe to assume this was what Coroner Meyer may have been referring to?

With the status of the missing piece of the paintbrush unknown then the possibility remains it was left inside JonBenet?


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[rashomon]

rashomon,

Your evidence that it was broken prior to the death of JonBenet is?

UKGuy,

Please note that I wrote: it could have broken before, i. e. I did not state it as fact.
Therefore the boot is the other foot: what evidence did LE provide that it WAS the (missing) pointed end of the paintbrush with which JonBenet was genitally assaulted? For a tiny cellulose splinter found in the vagina could easily have been transferred by someone who had just handled the paintbrush stick before when fashioning the garrote.

Tell us your source for this please?

It is true that cellulose is a birefrigent material, but isn't it a product from wood which has been processed in some way?

This I reckon was Coroner Meyer's verbal opinion e.g. digital penetration.

This is my understanding too: that in Dr. Meyer's opinion, the small vaginal abrasion which had bled was caused digitally. He also calls this section of tissue "eroded", which imo again points away from a jab by a wooden stick. Also, I think a jab by a paintbrush end would have caused a deeper wound than a mere abrasion.

With the status of the missing piece of the paintbrush unknown then the possibility remains it was left inside JonBenet?

No way imo. For this would suggest the coroner consciously lied about evidence (for of course he would have seen it if it had been left inside), and there is no reason whatsoever to assume this.

jmo

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

Please note that I wrote: it could have broken before, i. e. I did not state it as fact.
Therefore the boot is the other foot: what evidence did LE provide that it WAS the (missing) pointed end of the paintbrush with which JonBenet was genitally assaulted? For a tiny cellulose splinter found in the vagina could easily have been transferred by someone who had just handled the paintbrush stick before when fashioning the garrote.

It is true that cellulose is a birefrigent material, but isn't it a product from wood which has been processed in some way?


This is my understanding too: that in Dr. Meyer's opinion, the small vaginal abrasion which had bled was caused digitally. He also calls this section of tissue "eroded", which imo again points away from a jab by a wooden stick. Also, I think a jab by a paintbrush end would have caused a deeper wound than a mere abrasion.

rashomon,

Wood is cellulose most plants are composed of cellulose.

Coroner Meyer's digital penetration may be distinct from inserting the paintbrush, the latter may simply be staging, part of the evidence is related to it not being excluded as missing?

No way imo. For this would suggest the coroner consciously lied about evidence (for of course he would have seen it if it had been left inside), and there is no reason whatsoever to assume this.

No because either the phrase birefringement material applies to both or the missing piece has been redacted?


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[rashomon]

rashomon,

No because either the phrase birefringement material applies to both or the missing piece has been redacted?

There needn't have been any missing end piece of the paintbrush for a cellulose splinter to be found in her vagina. For imo this splinter could easily have been transferred by a finger.

 

[BOESP]

BOESP,

Birefringent is different from being refractive and not all materials are birefringent, some require other methods for identification. Coroner Meyer's use of the term birefringent was unlikely to be used in a loose and non-techicnal sense since he was compiling an autopsy report? Since Steve Thomas identifies a material as a splinter made of cellulose which is birefringent, and was recovered internally from JonBenet, it seems safe to assume this was what Coroner Meyer may have been referring to?

With the status of the missing piece of the paintbrush unknown then the possibility remains it was left inside JonBenet?


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Yes, I understand what birefringent means. I also said refractive or reflective and almost everything is one or the other. Many things are also birefringent and I don't have enough information to determine exactly what material Dr. Meyer was referring to. Hope that clears that up.

Yes, I agree that the autopsy was intended to be clear and scientifically precise. However, it stopped just short of that because the material was not identified except to say it was birefringent. I suspect a criminologist ran the item through the lab and identified the material by a common descriptive name.

We all feel differently about speculation I suppose, but I'm not comfortable assuming anything about what Dr. Meyer meant.

As to the status of this missing part of the paint brush, I think the same thing I've always thought -- that portion could have been missing long before the night JonBenet was killed. I can't come to a conclusion that the missing piece was left inside JonBenet because I see no convincing evidence for it. The splinter could have been transferred by hand or finger or simple direct transference. I place no more importance on speculating the birefringent material was cellulose or glitter, both of which have been mentioned.

I've answered your questions (I hope) and now I have one for you. :dance: Why do you think this missing piece of paintbrush is important to solving the crime or am I misinterpreting your interest in finding that piece and/or proving it was left inside JonBenet?

 

[UKGuy]

There needn't have been any missing end piece of the paintbrush for a cellulose splinter to be found in her vagina. For imo this splinter could easily have been transferred by a finger.

rashomon,

I agree thats why I cited Coroner Meyer. That does not exclude the missing piece being left inside JonBenet though?


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[UKGuy]

Yes, I understand what birefringent means. I also said refractive or reflective and almost everything is one or the other. Many things are also birefringent and I don't have enough information to determine exactly what material Dr. Meyer was referring to. Hope that clears that up.

Yes, I agree that the autopsy was intended to be clear and scientifically precise. However, it stopped just short of that because the material was not identified except to say it was birefringent. I suspect a criminologist ran the item through the lab and identified the material by a common descriptive name.

We all feel differently about speculation I suppose, but I'm not comfortable assuming anything about what Dr. Meyer meant.

As to the status of this missing part of the paint brush, I think the same thing I've always thought -- that portion could have been missing long before the night JonBenet was killed. I can't come to a conclusion that the missing piece was left inside JonBenet because I see no convincing evidence for it. The splinter could have been transferred by hand or finger or simple direct transference. I place no more importance on speculating the birefringent material was cellulose or glitter, both of which have been mentioned.

I've answered your questions (I hope) and now I have one for you. :dance: Why do you think this missing piece of paintbrush is important to solving the crime or am I misinterpreting your interest in finding that piece and/or proving it was left inside JonBenet?

BOESP,

I've answered your questions (I hope) and now I have one for you. :dance: Why do you think this missing piece of paintbrush is important to solving the crime or am I misinterpreting your interest in finding that piece and/or proving it was left inside JonBenet?

It is important to establish the status of the missing piece of paintbrush since if it was left inside JonBenet, then assuming there was no intruder involved, it demonstrates clear staging in a manner that Coroner Meyer's digital penetration does not, alternatively it may be have been used to sexually assault JonBenet, bearing in mind, digital and painbrush are different mechanisms.


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[JMO8778]

BOESP,

It is important to establish the status of the missing piece of paintbrush since if it was left inside JonBenet, then assuming there was no intruder involved, it demonstrates clear staging in a manner that Coroner Meyer's digital penetration does not, alternatively it may be have been used to sexually assault JonBenet, bearing in mind, digital and painbrush are different mechanisms.


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Uk,if she was assaulted with it,whom do you think did it,and why.any thoughts?

 

[UKGuy]

Uk,if she was assaulted with it,whom do you think did it,and why.any thoughts?

JMO8778,

There are three elements involved: the splinter, the missing piece of paintbrush, and one finger, duh!


Now the finger and splinter may coincide, or they may be distinct, similarly for the missing piece of paintbrush.

That is the digital penetration may be distinct from any speculative paintbrush penetration, but either may have delivered the splinter?


So you have the possibility of someone sexually assaulting JonBenet either with the paintbrush or digitally, then attempting to obscure this with whichever method was not employed?

1.
So a possible speculative scenario is say John digitally assaulting JonBenet, and Patsy attempting to cover this up by employing the paintbrush.
2.
Conversely , speculating, John employs the paintbrush to assault JonBenet, and Patsy digitally penetrates JonBenet to hide this, thus leaving a splinter behind, possibly from the garrote.
3.
There is no missing piece of paintbrush and Patsy digitally penetrated JonBenet to create a staged crime-scene, so transferring the splinter, after creating the garrote.

The splinter potentially helps with a timeline of staging since I assume the paintbrush needs to be handled and broken to generate a splinter, this then suggests this may have been prior to JonBenet being redressed in the size-12's?


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[JMO8778]

so transferring the splinter, after creating the garrote.

..could have just been broken first,though.hard to say,isn't it?

The splinter potentially helps with a timeline of staging since I assume the paintbrush needs to be handled and broken to generate a splinter, this then suggests this may have been prior to JonBenet being redressed in the size-12's?


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indeed it does,or the blood would have been noticed...and I don't think that would have been allowed to stay,since she was wiped of blood previously.

 

[JMO8778]

3.
There is no missing piece of paintbrush and Patsy digitally penetrated JonBenet to create a staged crime-scene, so transferring the splinter, after creating the garrote.




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ok,but why couldn't it have been JR? His fiber evidence is there,too.Yes,I know it's not on the garrotte,but,he could have handled just the brush,and not the rope itself.He could have been the one to break it,and hand the rest of it to Patsy for the garrotte,no?

 

[BOESP]

BOESP,since Thomas had access to the evidence,surely he would know whether anything more than a small splinter was left inside her?
I think either the brush was broken previous to that night,or that piece was removed,along w. the size 6 underwear,rope and tape(IF there was any more),by one of the R's,or hidden and retrieved later by PP.

Oh yes, no doubt he knows if something was left inside her. I just don't feel comfortable saying he was "hinting" that the top third of the brush handle was found inside her just because he said in his book that a splinter was found.

I could be wrong, but I just can't see John or Patsy molesting JonBenet with a paintbrush handle for staging or any other purpose. I'm not even sure about the size 6 panties since JonBenet could have worn pull-ups to the Whites. I do feel sure she didn't wear size 12s to the party!

I suspect if we knew what Steve Thomas meant by "corporal cleaning" we could put it together.

 

[JMO8778]

Oh yes, no doubt he knows if something was left inside her. I just don't feel comfortable saying he was "hinting" that the top third of the brush handle was found inside her just because he said in his book that a splinter was found.

ok,I understand.

I could be wrong, but I just can't see John or Patsy molesting JonBenet with a paintbrush handle for staging or any other purpose.

I KWYM,I'd like to think they didn't.
Something made her bleed though,as blood was wiped away on her thigh.I can't help but think the handle brushed against her as someone removed it and put it down.

I'm not even sure about the size 6 panties since JonBenet could have worn pull-ups to the Whites. I do feel sure she didn't wear size 12s to the party!

yep,me either.

I suspect if we knew what Steve Thomas meant by "corporal cleaning" we could put it together.

for sure,I take it he talked to the friends that knew Patsy and knew about the cleaning,and I can understand him keeping that under wraps.

 

[UKGuy]

..could have just been broken first,though.hard to say,isn't it?



indeed it does,or the blood would have been noticed...and I don't think that would have been allowed to stay,since she was wiped of blood previously.

..could have just been broken first,though.hard to say,isn't it?

No this is what item3. assumes? Shards of wood from the paintbrush were recovered from outside the wine-cellar door.


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[UKGuy]

..could have just been broken first,though.hard to say,isn't it?



indeed it does,or the blood would have been noticed...and I don't think that would have been allowed to stay,since she was wiped of blood previously.

..could have just been broken first,though.hard to say,isn't it?

No this is what item 3. assumes? Shards of wood from the paintbrush were recovered from outside the wine-cellar door.


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