MSNBC to Imus: You're FIRED!

[reb]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070419/ap_en_mu/rap_language

here, you go, more blatant hypocrisy and double-standards, right here!! i was wondering if they would ever get around to discussing this. they must be feeling some of the heat, and decided to go through the motions of doing something about it. but of course, they had no specific initiative, and they came up with nothing new, just a bunch of black execs who wanted to reinforce their rights to free speech and give each other lots of slaps on the back.

exhibit A:
---While Simmons, Liles and the rapper Common agreed "there is a problem," Simmons cautioned against trying to limit rappers' free-speech rights.

He said that "poets" always come under fire for their unsanitized descriptions of the world.

"We're talking about a lot of these artists who come from the most extreme cases of poverty and ignorance ... And when they write a song, and they write it from their heart, and they're not educated, and they don't believe there's opportunity, they have a right, they have a right to say what's on their mind," he said." ---

DISCLAIMER: this only applies to black people..... obviously.

at least he did go so far as to apologize for the demeaning, sexist lyrics against women.... but i'm sure he's thoroughly enjoying the millions those ugly words have made him... and will continue to do so!

 

[Cheetah]

If it was a joke, I for one didn't think it was funny. Actually, I do see that it could be a joke, but still the point is, I feel like everything is blamed on white people. And the comment sounded racist to me, and I said it was IMO.
So you say blacks don't own alot..I guess that's the white man's fault...get turned down for a loan, it's because they are black, can't get a decent job, it's because they are black, can't have their own business, can't get ahead in life, can't go to college, don't have enough money, all because they aren't white....
And of course they can go anywhere, say what they want, dress how they want, it's a FREE COUNTRY. There are plenty of things that aren't accepted by society but that doesn't mean we can't do them.

Not necessarily the white man's fault....but black people haven't been allowed to own things for that long! It's not like they inherited a bunch of assetts from their ancestors. And I'm not saying white people own everything...but the majority of land and businesses owned in this country are owned by them. It's also a fact that there is discrimination in the loan process.

Sure it's a free country.....but African-Americans face many stereotypes.

ANyway....I never read the article, but just taking what he said...I can see exactly where he is coming from.

There is a lack of equality in this country. I long for the day when we don't have to have such debates!

 

[Cheetah]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070419/ap_en_mu/rap_language

here, you go, more blatant hypocrisy and double-standards, right here!! i was wondering if they would ever get around to discussing this. they must be feeling some of the heat, and decided to go through the motions of doing something about it. but of course, they had no specific initiative, and they came up with nothing new, just a bunch of black execs who wanted to reinforce their rights to free speech and give each other lots of slaps on the back.

exhibit A:
---While Simmons, Liles and the rapper Common agreed "there is a problem," Simmons cautioned against trying to limit rappers' free-speech rights.

He said that "poets" always come under fire for their unsanitized descriptions of the world.

"We're talking about a lot of these artists who come from the most extreme cases of poverty and ignorance ... And when they write a song, and they write it from their heart, and they're not educated, and they don't believe there's opportunity, they have a right, they have a right to say what's on their mind," he said." ---

DISCLAIMER: this only applies to black people..... obviously.

at least he did go so far as to apologize for the demeaning, sexist lyrics against women.... but i'm sure he's thoroughly enjoying the millions those ugly words have made him... and will continue to do so!

What ugly words are you referring to??? Sure there are songs that are sexist, but not just rap music. The difference is we do have a choice on what type of music we choose to listen to :=)

The guns, the drive-by's, selling drugs....those are things that do happen in their communities, so sure they write about it. Not all rappers glorify it!! I consider Tupac one of the greatest poets of all time.

I don't even understand why Russell Simmons is being targeted here...I guess because he was on Oprah?????

If we choose to limit free-speech in music....then Prussian Blue has got to go!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Blue_(American_duo)

 

[MREG2]

You know what, MREG2? That was uncalled for, and I shouldn't have said it. I apologize.

I too am sorry, IrishMist. It was getting pretty heated. :blushing:

 

[MREG2]

Since I don't think being a "she" is a bad thing, I can't figure out how to get you fired for your mistake.

(That's a joke. It happens all the time here and I'm not offended in the slightest.)

LOL!!!!

 

[MREG2]

I don't understand. Surely we can all protest slavery, regardless of the color of the perp or the victim.



For what it's worth, I was far more horrified by that than by Imus' recent remarks (because of the age and situation of Hornbeck).

I wouldn't have fired Imus, but I just can't whup up much outrage for a wealthy man who - for the moment - can no longer say nasty things on TV and radio.



Let's face it, almost all Americans are woefully ignorant of what goes on in other countries. But any nation who has a colonial history - including England and France - has similar problems. The problems are just phrased a little differently because the history isn't precisely the same.

But as for your concern with people who "would rather sit there and whine," such people are found in all groups. Where is the evidence this is a special problem among black Americans?



Who, pray tell, are "they"? The millions of black teachers, social workers, policemen, firemen, inner-city entrepreneurs (I could go on but you get the point)?

Jackson and Sharpton protested a gratuitous and outrageous remark. What has that to do with black people refusing to help and expecting white people to do everything?

(Historically, I'm sure you know, it was usually the other way around: white people sat around while black people did all the work. But I've never heard an African American say this history justifies black inaction today.)

I agree with you about the BOR comment about SH. It was worse but I don't see anyone trying to get him off the air (and would someone please so this!)

I'm not saying every single black person whines and complains (and I'm sorry if that is what it sounds like), again I work with some truly wonderful and hardworking black people. We are good friends with a couple who has a son our daughter's age. What gets me though are those who really do complain and degrade white people for something that doesn't literally affect them. And there are some white people who will complain about their situations too. Complaining gets you nowhere. Well, maybe for some it does but I have never had it workout that way for me. It's that group that just really gets to me. And Sharpton. Well, I promised myself I would not get into this thread today (I have a doc appt and do not need my blood pressure up ) But I will not change my opinion about Sharpton. I'm all for activists. We have one here in my city who is very very fair about the situations he gets in. And believe me, he is well respected. We also have a Sharpton wanna-be. He is the laughing stock of Louisville.

I apologize but I truly need to stay off this thread. I wish everyone well....

 

[MREG2]

I'm in Orlando now, we moved here about a year ago and I hate it :=(

So we are going back "home" to West Palm Beach...I love the South Florida area, it's just so different up here!

Not to but in but is that near Melborne? I had a very good friend who used to live there but moved to Titusville. I love Melborne and would love to move there. <sigh>

 

[Masterj]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070419/ap_en_mu/rap_language

here, you go, more blatant hypocrisy and double-standards, right here!! i was wondering if they would ever get around to discussing this. they must be feeling some of the heat, and decided to go through the motions of doing something about it. but of course, they had no specific initiative, and they came up with nothing new, just a bunch of black execs who wanted to reinforce their rights to free speech and give each other lots of slaps on the back.

exhibit A:
---While Simmons, Liles and the rapper Common agreed "there is a problem," Simmons cautioned against trying to limit rappers' free-speech rights.

He said that "poets" always come under fire for their unsanitized descriptions of the world.

"We're talking about a lot of these artists who come from the most extreme cases of poverty and ignorance ... And when they write a song, and they write it from their heart, and they're not educated, and they don't believe there's opportunity, they have a right, they have a right to say what's on their mind," he said." ---

DISCLAIMER: this only applies to black people..... obviously.

at least he did go so far as to apologize for the demeaning, sexist lyrics against women.... but i'm sure he's thoroughly enjoying the millions those ugly words have made him... and will continue to do so!

You know reb, this is growing old rather quickly. Rap artists are damned if they do, damned if they don't with you. According to you, they are "going through the motions" by actually dealing with the problem head on and listening to what people have to say. Meanwhile if they didn't do anything at all, there is no doubt you would jump all over them for that too. Additionally, it has been well publicized that they are planning a summit to address this very topic.

And for the record, rap artists are not the only ones in the music industry creating music that demeans women or other people. I can think of several examples of demeaning songs across various genres - country, heavy metal, rock, alternative, etc.

 

[Paladin]

And for the record, rap artists are not the only ones in the music industry creating music that demeans women or other people. I can think of several examples of demeaning songs across various genres - country, heavy metal, rock, alternative, etc.

Care to share those examples?

 

[Masterj]

Care to share those examples?

Of course!

Of the top of my head I can think of songs by George Michael (I want your sex), Ted Nugent, System of A Down ( the System), Billy Joel, Motley Crue, Marilyn Manson, Van Halen, etc.

Here is one from Toby Keith called "Who's Your Daddy?"

"Who's your daddy, who's your baby?
Who's your buddy, who's your friend?

And who's the one guy that you come runnin' to repeat
When your lovelife starts tumblin'?
I got the money if you got the honey
Let's cut a deal let's make a plan

Who's your daddy, who's your baby?
Who's your buddy, who's your man?

You might've run on a little tough luck baby
Don't you sweat it
Everything is waiting inside for ya
You know I got it
So come and get it

I would say those lyrics are pretty sexist and while he doesn't directly call her a , he certainly implies that she is one.

Many people find Gretchen Wilson's song Redneck Woman offensive, although I don't.

How about this closer from Nine Inch Nails:

you let me violate you
you let me desecrate you
you let me penetrate you
you let me complicate you

help me
i broke apart my insides
help me
i've got no soul to sell
help me
the only thing that works for me
help me get away from myself

i want to you like an animal
i want to feel you from the inside
i want to you like an animal
my whole existence is flawed
you get me closer to god

 

[Nova]

Nova,
I've been reading here at WS for a long time (ie years) and I am well aware of your opinions on a few topics. I am NOT going to get into a pissing match with you. Don't call my assertions ridiculous, I am entitled to my opinions and you're entitled to yours. I made a statement and I stand by my statement. You don't know my family and what they may or may not have endured while living in the south.

Philamena, I wasn't condescending to you or assuming you were a new poster.

And I certainly wasn't accusing your folks of being especially racist. I believe you that they were not and are not.

I was expressing my opinion that race has always been a central issue in our culture and that we ALL (myself included) internalize racist ideas to one degree or another.

 

[Cheetah]

Not to but in but is that near Melborne? I had a very good friend who used to live there but moved to Titusville. I love Melborne and would love to move there. <sigh>

I'm about 45 miles from Melborne....it's near the beach!! That's the one thing I must the most...living on the coast. Of course...I say that now because there were no hurricanes last year. :doh:

 

[Paladin]

How about this closer from Nine Inch Nails:

you let me violate you
you let me desecrate you
you let me penetrate you
you let me complicate you

help me
i broke apart my insides
help me
i've got no soul to sell
help me
the only thing that works for me
help me get away from myself

i want to you like an animal
i want to feel you from the inside
i want to you like an animal
my whole existence is flawed
you get me closer to god

Ah, my favorite band. Thank you.

How exactly does Closer exploit women? You're making an assumption that because a guy is singing it that this song is directed at a woman. Trent Reznor is known for using metaphorical lyrics to represent something else. Check out the Pretty Hate Machine album and the song Sanctified. On first read-through of the lyrics it sounds sexual in nature. "And if you say come in inside, I'll come inside for you." Believe it or not, the song is about drug use. He said so himself.

You're using your own imagination about the meaning of this song, which is fine, I think that's a great element of music. It's easy to mistake lyrics such as these for exploitation of a woman. However, there's no mistaking the lyrical interpretations of a rapper when they say and Ho's. We certainly know what they mean.

 

[Cheetah]

Ah, my favorite band. Thank you.
You're using your own imagination about the meaning of this song, which is fine, I think that's a great element of music. It's easy to mistake lyrics such as these for exploitation of a woman. However, there's no mistaking the lyrical interpretations of a rapper when they say and Ho's. We certainly know what they mean.

I can't recall a rap song where all women are referred to as " and ho's", or maybe I just haven't heard it. Most rap lyrics are stories, usually they are referring to the women using them for their money, having a bunch of men, going out without underwear, half-dressed etc. I mean look at Britney...everyone called her a ho when she was pictured without underwear. Usually if I hear such lyrics I can easily say.."he ain't talking about me"! It's a shame we can't discuss the rap lyrics that talk about "good" women.

Anyway...there is a big difference on a comment targeted to a specific group of girls vs. the masses.

 

[Masterj]

Ah, my favorite band. Thank you.

How exactly does Closer exploit women? You're making an assumption that because a guy is singing it that this song is directed at a woman. Trent Reznor is known for using metaphorical lyrics to represent something else. Check out the Pretty Hate Machine album and the song Sanctified. On first read-through of the lyrics it sounds sexual in nature. "And if you say come in inside, I'll come inside for you." Believe it or not, the song is about drug use. He said so himself.

You're using your own imagination about the meaning of this song, which is fine, I think that's a great element of music. It's easy to mistake lyrics such as these for exploitation of a woman. However, there's no mistaking the lyrical interpretations of a rapper when they say and Ho's. We certainly know what they mean.

Whoa Paladin. You are the one jumping to conclusions here. I never said that I personally find any of the songs I listed offensive. Closer is actually one of my favorite songs. I was only showing that there are songs in other genres that are labeled as "offensive" yet rap music is the one that is harped on again and again.

 

[Paladin]

I can't recall a rap song where all women are referred to as " and ho's", or maybe I just haven't heard it.

Check out the last track on Dr. Dre's album, The Chronic...it's called " ain't ." That may change your mind.

 

[Paladin]

Whoa Paladin. You are the one jumping to conclusions here. I never said that I personally find any of the songs I listed offensive. Closer is actually one of my favorite songs. I was only showing that there are songs in other genres that are labeled as "offensive" yet rap music is the one that is harped on again and again.

Oh, I'm sorry then. I agree that Closer is probably very offensive to people. I thought you meant to use this track as a specific example of how non-rap music is degrading to women.

 

[Masterj]

Oh, I'm sorry then. I agree that Closer is probably very offensive to people. I thought you meant to use this track as a specific example of how non-rap music is degrading to women.

It's my fault. Shouldn't be doing this when I am working on something else anyway, since I am writing half-assed and can't articulate my thoughts properly. My main point is that someone is always going to be offended by something and I am tired of hearing people hollar about the language black rap artists use when there are plenty of others who do the same.

In regard to your point about Trent Raznor and what the lyrics to Closer actually mean, couldn't we also take that to mean that some rap lyrics have deeper meanings also?

 

[Cheetah]

Check out the last track on Dr. Dre's album, The Chronic...it's called " ain't ." That may change your mind.

Lol....Finish the sentence and then you'll know exactly who he's talking about :crazy:

Like I said...he ain't talking about me!

Btw....that song is like really, really old!!

 

[Masterj]

Lol....Finish the sentence and then you'll know exactly who he's talking about :crazy:

Like I said...he ain't talking about me!

let's see if i remember this correctly

ain't but hos and tricks...

I won't finish the rest, but Cheetah is right. Dr. Dre is certainly not referring to all women, just a certain type of woman who behaves a certain way.

The funny thing is that I listened to this music while growing up (and still enjoy a lot of it, like Dr. Dre, Mos Def, Jay Z, Nas, etc), however it bothers me to no end to hear women call each other , , etc. Go figure.