Murder 1 or a Lesser Included Offense?

[Just Jayla]

BBM - I hope that their opinions do not differ too far from the majority here, but I don't know? We've had three years to go through what has been released, we have amazing people on this forum who have given their professional opinion on the forensic evidence released, the plant and root growth, and legal aspects of the case.

The jury is going to have 8 weeks (I think more with the way JB and CM made those hearings drag out) and they are going to listen to both sides. We don't know how effective the defenses expert witnesses are going to be to a jury?

I really do think that Casey will be convicted of First Degree Murder and I think she has as good a chance as any to get the DP. I'm just scared of that little chance that something happens and the jury doesn't see it the way we see it?

AZ posted a great answer on the legal thread that outlines a way the defense can do this without jury instruction, lack of premeditative evidence and/or plea being the cause of a "downgraded" conviction. She simply conjured up a great defense idea. I'm guessing RH was thinking along the same lines.
Hope JB is not follownig AZlawyer's posts too closely. Also hoping that a jury is as imaginative as AZ, in the opposite direction-That is, even if the defense puts forth the scenario AZlawyer did, the jury can imagine that it is just a ruse by the defense.

 

[sumbunny]

If there weren't searches for neck breaking/household weapons/chloroform on the computer weeks before Caylee's demise. I'd believe it was a rage killing of her daughter.

But, because of those prior searches, I do believe she had pre-meditated some kind of act against Caylee and or family. JMO.

 

[logicalgirl]

If there weren't searches for neck breaking/household weapons/chloroform on the computer weeks before Caylee's demise. I'd believe it was a rage killing of her daughter.

But, because of those prior searches, I do believe she had pre-meditated some kind of act against Caylee and or family. JMO.

Hmm - I have a feeling JWG over on Hinky had info those searches weren't done by ICA or was it something else.:waitasec: Will go over and check.

I'd rather not focus on it being a rage killing - because I want her convicted with as much credence as the State can put forward.

 

[sumbunny]

Hmm - I have a feeling JWG over on Hinky had info those searches weren't done by ICA or was it something else.:waitasec: Will go over and check.

I'd rather not focus on it being a rage killing - because I want her convicted with as much credence as the State can put forward.

I found it at hinky meter http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2010/02/08/the-google-searches/

But the more potentially “nefarious” searches were most likely conducted on Casey’s account. Like I said previously, investigators may have additional information on these unallocated files that definitively tie them to one account or the other. Hopefully this will come out in court.

Another reason it seems apparent it was Casey conducting these searches, and by default on her own account, is that except for one time period in which these searches were conducted, she appears to be the only person home.

I do think it was Casey searching the computer moo ***fantastic work done by Valhall on this article**** thank you again Valhall for all the work you put into getting justice for Caylee

 

[logicalgirl]

I found it at hinky meter http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2010/02/08/the-google-searches/





I do think it was Casey searching the computer moo ***fantastic work done by Valhall on this article**** thank you again Valhall for all the work you put into getting justice for Caylee

Oh thank you! I keep being interrupted because someone wants me to do some work - so annoying!

Sure - I wasn't meaning I didn't think she did any searches - and yes, I think she was, only sort of :waitasec: to think what the defense could possibly argue is all.

By all means - shoot this info down - the more the better. And it was the issue with ICA did not search missing child sites or ZFG before Caylee went missing - my mistake.

 

[strach304]

I don't think she'll get the DP simply because she is a female and so young. Hoping that I'm wrong but if so then I think that would be the reason. There won't be any moving impact statements made by the victims family like Jessie Davis' family did for them to consider. Jessie's mom didn't want Bobby Cutts to receive the DP. George and Cindy are way worse than the Petersons so I don't see them feeling sorry for G & C. Lastly, I believe it will also depend on how the prosecution presents their side. It's not going to be too difficult to get the jury emotionally worked up considering the very nature and victim/perp in this case. From what I've seen of the LE and SA they will do just that. The defense trying to present Casey in a positive light not so much. There's just too much evidence to explain it all away.

 

[strach304]

And remember...we've had three years of getting information, digesting it, conversing about it...that's a long, long time to think and talk about this in pieces. Remember that too - we've gotten all of this case in pieces, never all at once.

Now just imagine, all the information we've received, every deposition (at least any needed portions that surely the SA will have right on hand for every witness that gets on the stand), every piece of evidence, every false scenario of what happened to Caylee plus the actual crime itself, every player, all of Casey's statements and attitudes, all of her parent's and brother's statements and attitudes, everything that has come out and has yet to come out...

Imagine all of that packaged neatly, tied with a bow, and presented by the SA to a jury, most of whom haven't heard of this case before - IN TWO MONTHS. All of the players, that insanely long list of witnesses, all on the stand and testifying, not in two or three years, but TWO MONTHS. Imagine the jury watching and digesting Casey and her defense at their table for TWO MONTHS. And imagine the defense's weak attempt to combat this neat package including the long witness list the SA has put together (cross exam and the defense itself) in the same TWO MONTHS. We got in a small, trickling spring rain. Now imagine that sprinkling rain turning into a hurricane or tsunami of information that is given to the jury in TWO MONTHS.

Casey is toast. There is no way any jury wouldn't convicted her of anything less than murder one, and the defense knows it, otherwise WHY would they spend so much more time on the mitigation phase, which will probably last way longer than the defense they put on?

Not much in the way of mitigating factors either imo. If they present the abuse stories about Lee and George I think they need some kind of proof not just Casey's word for anyone to believe it. Even if they can prove it I don't think that info will make a difference in how they sentence her.

 

[strawberry]

Not much in the way of mitigating factors either imo. If they present the abuse stories about Lee and George I think they need some kind of proof not just Casey's word for anyone to believe it. Even if they can prove it I don't think that info will make a difference in how they sentence her.

Would GA be willing to lie for her? Susan's Smith stepfather admitted what he did...I think GA or LA would have to take the stand and "admit" it but even then, the credibility is not there.

 

[logicalgirl]

Would GA be willing to lie for her? Susan's Smith stepfather admitted what he did...I think GA or LA would have to take the stand and "admit" it but even then, the credibility is not there.

All the sexual abuse in the world is not going to give you an excuse for killing your child and throwing her bagged into a swamp! The obvious answer would be to grab your child and get the heck out of there to protect her.

And I have yet to find a case where sexual abuse has made a difference in Florida during the mitigation phase. The jury seems to say sexual abuse=killing your kid? :waitasec: Ah....no.

And I am speaking of testimony of real abuse (eg. Susan Smiths stepfather) not the "I had a dream" kind. I think even if George lied and said it's true, a sensible jury would say "so what".

 

[MissJames]

Hmm - I have a feeling JWG over on Hinky had info those searches weren't done by ICA or was it something else.:waitasec: Will go over and check.

I'd rather not focus on it being a rage killing - because I want her convicted with as much credence as the State can put forward.

Hi Logicalgirl :seeya:,

I certainly hope the jury actually thinks through the steps it took to methodically cut 3 strips of duct tape and place it over Caylee's face. Unlike a bullet wound or stabbing ,that can be instantly fatal,it would take several minutes for Caylee to die by suffocation. I suspect she WAS in a rage,but it was a slow,simmering,ongoing rage IMO.
I'm sure JA and LDB will take every opportunity to use this visual during the trial.

 

[logicalgirl]

Hi Logicalgirl :seeya:,

I certainly hope the jury actually thinks through the steps it took to methodically cut 3 strips of duct tape and place it over Caylee's face. Unlike a bullet wound or stabbing ,that can be instantly fatal,it would take several minutes for Caylee to die by suffocation. I suspect she WAS in a rage,but it was a slow,simmering,ongoing rage IMO.
I'm sure JA and LDB will take every opportunity to use this visual during the trial.

Yes! I hope they see her as cold and calculating as she is in court - staring with those dead fish eyes, and they will believe she was just as calm as can be when she ended little Caylee's life. And I hope either LDB or Ashton does a demonstration of how long applying the duct tape would take.

Heck, she may even have been humming one of her favorite songs and feeling all pleased with herself that she would soon be moving on to her Beautiful Life.

I'd be totally fine with the jury believing that.

 

[MissJames]

And remember...we've had three years of getting information, digesting it, conversing about it...that's a long, long time to think and talk about this in pieces. Remember that too - we've gotten all of this case in pieces, never all at once.

Now just imagine, all the information we've received, every deposition (at least any needed portions that surely the SA will have right on hand for every witness that gets on the stand), every piece of evidence, every false scenario of what happened to Caylee plus the actual crime itself, every player, all of Casey's statements and attitudes, all of her parent's and brother's statements and attitudes, everything that has come out and has yet to come out...

Imagine all of that packaged neatly, tied with a bow, and presented by the SA to a jury, most of whom haven't heard of this case before - IN TWO MONTHS. All of the players, that insanely long list of witnesses, all on the stand and testifying, not in two or three years, but TWO MONTHS. Imagine the jury watching and digesting Casey and her defense at their table for TWO MONTHS. And imagine the defense's weak attempt to combat this neat package including the long witness list the SA has put together (cross exam and the defense itself) in the same TWO MONTHS. We got in a small, trickling spring rain. Now imagine that sprinkling rain turning into a hurricane or tsunami of information that is given to the jury in TWO MONTHS.

Casey is toast. There is no way any jury wouldn't convicted her of anything less than murder one, and the defense knows it, otherwise WHY would they spend so much more time on the mitigation phase, which will probably last way longer than the defense they put on?

So true,Aedrys,
There is so much I forget until someone brings it up again.Getting it all ,in a short period of time will be an advantage ,but also overwhelming.
What I dread the most are the sidebars.I'm sure there will be a lot of them.

AS for the work being done on mitigation, I think AF is cut from a different piece of cloth than the rest of the defense team. I expect she will actually put forth a decent case. More than ICA deserves ,IMO.

 

[beach]

I don't know about the State of Florida but in California there has to be evidence submitted at trial which would support a manslaughter conviction, otherwise the trial judge will NOT allow the jury to be instructed on that charge in a first degree murder case.

In October 2008, the Grand Jury indicted Casey on 7 counts: First Degree Murder (CAPITAL), Aggravated Child Abuse, Aggravated Manslaughter of a Child and 4 counts of of Providing False Information to a Law Enforcement Officer. To the best of my knowledge, the jury will be instructed to render verdicts on all counts.

Link to Indictment (Charges are listed on pdf p. 3)

Good reading - haven't read the original GJ indictment in a long time.

 

[debbie0604]

Back in the days after Caylee was found, I did ponder that it was an accidental killing. My reasoning? Because there was the heart shaped sticker on the duct tape. As if ICA tried to make it look like a kidnapping, but OTOH felt so bad about it that she put the heart there to make herself "feel better".

The heart has since bothered me, as I can't figure out the meaning or understanding behind it. That's my only reasoning to apply an accident/coverup.

However, I think it's too late for the defense to backtrack and go with this theory now. What is their theory anyway!

MOO

Mel

Not to get O/T, but I have read elsewhere there is a theory that it could have been because there is a Spongebob character that wears a ponytail and a heart on her mouth (character's name is Pearl) (and Caylee loved Spongbob). ??

I think that the important factor in this case will be the jury and while they will be sequestered and their identities will be protected from the media, I pray they will not go through what TES searchers went through (IIKWIM). I think the prosecution has a very strong case, and I think it all be up the jury.

 

[logicalgirl]

In October 2008, the Grand Jury indicted Casey on 7 counts: First Degree Murder (CAPITAL), Aggravated Child Abuse, Aggravated Manslaughter of a Child and 4 counts of of Providing False Information to a Law Enforcement Officer. To the best of my knowledge, the jury will be instructed to render verdicts on all counts.

Link to Indictment (Charges are listed on pdf p. 3)

Good reading - haven't read the original GJ indictment in a long time.

Thanks for that Beach - I hunted all over the place for that this morning but for some reason I was looking in October and then April when the Death penalty was tacked on. :banghead:

Never occurred to me to look at the Grand Jury Indictment. :loser:

 

[cuppy199]

KA loved heart stickers and stickers period she liked to make things with them. IMO the heart sticker wasnt put there because of guilt and it was no accident. IMO KA put it there has her calling card so to speak. KA knew CA would know the meaning of the sticker.Poor Caylee didnt have a chance. Also IMO KA is gonna get LWOP and thats as light of a sentence she is gonna get :twocents: Only comfort Im gonna get for that she is gonna be in for a big surprise they dont like baby killers in the pokey :crazy:

 

[Just Jayla]

I think you need to examine it from the opposite view point, meaning can the State prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Casey killed Caylee intentionally.

If the State cannot prove that - beyond a reasonable doubt - then the lesser verdict would be either Second Degree Murder, Aggravated Manslaughter of a Child, or Not Guilty.

I think that if a jury was having a difficult time finding that the State proved First Degree Murder beyond a reasonable doubt they would compromise with a verdict of Aggravated Manslaughter of a Child.

(Brought over from legal thread as surely this will elicit further discussion)

Ah, after all of my rambling, you have addressed my previous question-So, now I can ask:

We'll assume, probably correctly, that a plea is not on the table.

Let's also assume you have sufficiently attacked any evidence of premeditation and provided sufficient reasonable doubt there-How do you proceed to show that Caylee was not killed in the commission of aggravated child abuse? Specifically, how does the defense address the placement of a rare type of duct tape, and more specifically the placement of that duct tape in a toddler's hair?

Do you also/how do you seek to eliminate:
-KC's failure to provide prenatal care for Caylee?
-KC's attempts to adopt Caylee to Kio?
-KC's history of leaving her child in her mother's care and failing to provide for her financially, to the point that CA, in the 1st 911 call, threatened to take custody?
-KC's statements to RyanP (IIRC) that Caylee was a hinderence to KC's lifestyle?
-Maria Kissh's statements that KC left Caylee unsupervised in a dangerous situation?
-MichelleM's concern that KC might hurt Caylee, based on things KC said to Michelle about her mental state?

I know these answers probably seem simple, in that they can be countered with testimony that KC was a good mother, CA was controlling, Michelle is not a doctor, etc...Do you try to shoot these items down within the trial itself, or does jury instruction become a stronger tool?

 

[ShadowGal]

Hi Logicalgirl :seeya:,

I certainly hope the jury actually thinks through the steps it took to methodically cut 3 strips of duct tape and place it over Caylee's face. Unlike a bullet wound or stabbing ,that can be instantly fatal,it would take several minutes for Caylee to die by suffocation. I suspect she WAS in a rage,but it was a slow,simmering,ongoing rage IMO.
I'm sure JA and LDB will take every opportunity to use this visual during the trial.

BBM. Miss James, ITA.

The computer search for 'household weapons' coupled with the tiny body found with THREE strips of duct tape affixed so tightly to the skull will hopefully seal ICA's fate in the minds of any questioning jurors. It does not take a large leap to add two and two together on these points. Her deceptive and non chalant behavior plus this evidence will damn her, imo.

 

[Patriciao]

I will be happy if Casey got 30 years in prison. If she had 'confessed' early on to an accident that spiraled out of control with an insane cover-up she may have gotten much less. 30 years sounds like a death sentence to me. I value my freedom too much and love being able to do and go where ever I want when ever I want. I think going to prison would be the most horrible way to spend 1 year much less 30. 30 years for Casey to look at the walls and remember why she's there.

 

[krisskross]

BBM. Miss James, ITA.

The computer search for 'household weapons' coupled with the tiny body found with THREE strips of duct tape affixed so tightly to the skull will hopefully seal ICA's fate in the minds of any questioning jurors. It does not take a large leap to add two and two together on these points. Her deceptive and non chalant behavior plus this evidence will damn her, imo.

Yep and MOTHER'S who's children meet with accidents, call 911. They don't reach for duct tape and then go on a date. I also don' t believe she craved her mother's approval or feared her. Her long term abuse of Cindy's bank accounts, free time and her failure to find work show a totally selfish and single minded individual. MOO