MythBuster Thread Discussion Area

[Jolynna]

My point original point though, is that the myth buster post about the substance found on the paper towel is misleading the way it is written.

That substance on the paper towel could not be soap or makeup as stated in the post. Maggots don't eat soap and makeup. Soap and similar compounds don't attract flies.

The report on the provided link described the substance as like adipocere from pig or human decomposition. I think this part of the link also needs to be included in the post.

I think scientific reports meant establish fact should be copied as written without parts like "the substance could be soap" (which is an opinion & one not necessarily fact IN THIS CASE). Other facts from the same report--the maggots--dispute that assertation.

I am challenging the mythbuster post as written.

 

[lin]

Hi Lin. Not sure what you mean, but it is the rule and always has been. Maybe I am misunderstanding you.

[ame=http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3985730&postcount=35]Here is a post that imo incorrectly interprets the report quoted.[/ame] You'll see the post is dated July 24. What you won't see is discussion in this thread prior to posting information at the MB sticky thread, nor any posts in this thread so far that agree with what is claimed to be a "myth" that's been busted. I'm not sure the poster even realizes this thread exists.

 

[Tuffy]

My point original point though, is that the myth buster post about the substance found on the paper towel is misleading the way it is written.

That substance on the paper towel could not be soap or makeup as stated in the post. Maggots don't eat soap and makeup. Soap and similar compounds don't attract flies.

The report on the provided link described the substance as like adipocere from pig or human decomposition. I think this part of the link also needs to be included in the post.

I think scientific reports meant establish fact should be copied as written without parts like "the substance could be soap" (which is an opinion & one not necessarily fact IN THIS CASE). Other facts from the same report--the maggots--dispute that assertation.

I am challenging the mythbuster post as written.

I completely agree Jolynna. My interpretation of the results is using the term "quite consistant" with human or pig decomposition, and not mentioning any other substance, means just that. I don't interpret the result to mean that the substance could easily be make-up or soap.

 

[Tuffy]

Interesting about the adipocere. It forms on the fatty parts of bodies, in an anerobic (sp) conditon, in cold, humid places. Not in warm places. It begins to form 3 to 4 weeks after death.

Does this mean what I think it means?

For adipocere to be in the trunk, the baby would have been in the trunk 21-28 days after death and stored until then in a cold, humid place.

Adipocere could not form in KC's car trunk from leakage - it would be entirely too hot.


Well, now. Interesting. Thank you posters.

Hi DotsEyes. I was reading several different sources about adipocere, and found just the opposite. Most of the sources stated that hot, humid environment was more favorable. That a colder environment did not stop the formation of adipocere, but it did cause it to form more slowly.

The shortest amount of time quoted was 3 weeks. This makes me wonder if partial remains could cause the formation of adipocere. I tried to find some information as to whether the whole body was necessary. Everything I read said it was more likely to form in fatty areas such as breasts, buttocks, or cheeks. And it was more common is babies, because of the baby fat.

I did find this abstract:

Abstract: The accurate determination of postmortem interval (PMI) using the formation of adipocere presents a significant challenge to forensic scientists interested in determining the time of death. Several attempts have been made to determine the time since the occurrence of death. However, up to date, this has been difficult because previous approaches have been mainly qualitative, focusing on the later stages of degradation processes. This work presents preliminary results of an experimental model of postmortem adipocere formation using liquid chromatography. Three pig cadavers were submerged in distilled water, chlorinated water, and saline water. Fresh specimens resulting from the degradation in the subcutaneous fat were obtained from the pigs at two-week intervals for a period of ten weeks, and were subjected to chromatographic analysis. By correlating the ratio of the disappearance of hydrolyzed fatty acids with the formation of hydroxystearic and oxostearic acids after death, a simple, quantitative analytical method was developed for the determination of PMI. Experimental observation of the chemistry of adipocere formation indicated that adipocere can be formed only a few hours after an incidence of death and this continues until the saturation of oleic acid degradation after several weeks. Different time courses were obtained for cadavers immersed in distilled, chlorinated, and saline water, respectively. This work has not in any way solved the time since death problem. But it may be an approach to the problem that has not been adequately explored.

http://journalsip.astm.org/jofs/PAGES/3551.htm

 

[JBean]

Here is a post that imo incorrectly interprets the report quoted. You'll see the post is dated July 24. What you won't see is discussion in this thread prior to posting information at the MB sticky thread, nor any posts in this thread so far that agree with what is claimed to be a "myth" that's been busted. I'm not sure the poster even realizes this thread exists.

Hi Lin


[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3183345&postcount=1"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Myth Busters and Facts NO DISCUSSION NO DISCUSSION[/ame]

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3310430&postcount=17"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Myth Busters and Facts NO DISCUSSION NO DISCUSSION[/ame]


I have never gotten a challenge on this entry? Maybe it got lost when you sent it?
Per the instructions, if you challenge an entry just let me know, but this is the first I have heard about it.

Maybe everyone should take a moment to re read the opening post.



Hopefully this will help clarify the OP of the myth buster thread.

If you have a myth you think you can bust, feel free to post it in the mythbuster thread. Post links and back up that support your fact or mythbust.

If another poster does not agree that supporting information concretely busts the myth you need to do 2 things.
1. Alert a moderator by way of a simple pm OR alert on the post, and if it is not clear it will be removed.
2. Bring the issue here for challenging discussion.

If we happen to see it before any of you do, we will do the same thing. that is remove it and bring it here for discussion.

Thank you

 

[lin]

Hi Lin


Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Myth Busters and Facts NO DISCUSSION NO DISCUSSION

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Myth Busters and Facts NO DISCUSSION NO DISCUSSION


I have never gotten a challenge on this entry? Maybe it got lost when you sent it?
Per the instructions, if you challenge an entry just let me know, but this is the first I have heard about it.

Maybe everyone should take a moment to re read the opening post.



Hopefully this will help clarify the OP of the myth buster thread.

If you have a myth you think you can bust, feel free to post it in the mythbuster thread. Post links and back up that support your fact or mythbust.

If another poster does not agree that supporting information concretely busts the myth you need to do 2 things.
1. Alert a moderator by way of a simple pm OR alert on the post, and if it is not clear it will be removed.
2. Bring the issue here for challenging discussion.

If we happen to see it before any of you do, we will do the same thing. that is remove it and bring it here for discussion.

Thank you

Guess that will teach me to not read the op.

So does an alert need to be made on that post or is it handled? TIA

 

[Jolynna]

I'm sorry. I skimmed...:blushing: I missed that I was supposed to notify a mod to challenge a mythbuster post.

Again, my apologies.

Thanks for pulling the post I questioned down for review.

 

[JBean]

well you guys can post it in here, but we don't read every post in the forum, so there is a good chance your challenge will never be seen.

 

[AZlawyer]

Hi DotsEyes. I was reading several different sources about adipocere, and found just the opposite. Most of the sources stated that hot, humid environment was more favorable. That a colder environment did not stop the formation of adipocere, but it did cause it to form more slowly.

The shortest amount of time quoted was 3 weeks. This makes me wonder if partial remains could cause the formation of adipocere. I tried to find some information as to whether the whole body was necessary. Everything I read said it was more likely to form in fatty areas such as breasts, buttocks, or cheeks. And it was more common is babies, because of the baby fat.

I did find this abstract:

Abstract: The accurate determination of postmortem interval (PMI) using the formation of adipocere presents a significant challenge to forensic scientists interested in determining the time of death. Several attempts have been made to determine the time since the occurrence of death. However, up to date, this has been difficult because previous approaches have been mainly qualitative, focusing on the later stages of degradation processes. This work presents preliminary results of an experimental model of postmortem adipocere formation using liquid chromatography. Three pig cadavers were submerged in distilled water, chlorinated water, and saline water. Fresh specimens resulting from the degradation in the subcutaneous fat were obtained from the pigs at two-week intervals for a period of ten weeks, and were subjected to chromatographic analysis. By correlating the ratio of the disappearance of hydrolyzed fatty acids with the formation of hydroxystearic and oxostearic acids after death, a simple, quantitative analytical method was developed for the determination of PMI. Experimental observation of the chemistry of adipocere formation indicated that adipocere can be formed only a few hours after an incidence of death and this continues until the saturation of oleic acid degradation after several weeks. Different time courses were obtained for cadavers immersed in distilled, chlorinated, and saline water, respectively. This work has not in any way solved the time since death problem. But it may be an approach to the problem that has not been adequately explored.

http://journalsip.astm.org/jofs/PAGES/3551.htm

Hmm...but ALL the tested pig cadavers were submerged in water? So has anyone found any reference to such early adipocere formation where a body is NOT submerged in water?

 

[Jolynna]

Hmm...but ALL the tested pig cadavers were submerged in water? So has anyone found any reference to such early adipocere formation where a body is NOT submerged in water?

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c341/jazlynsmum1/papertowelanalyis.png

Maybe the 3rd paragraph talking about typical "older" adipocere fatty acid ratio and the composition of more recent decomposing tissue is meant to be an explanation?

The link goes on to say: "This implies that the conversion of oleic acid could have occurred during the month the car was sitting in the summer heat."

My impression of the report is that it is all about the ending statement that: "the fatty acid ratios detected on the paper towels are quite consistent with those identified in human and pig decomposition studies."

 

[lin]

Excellent addition to myth busters thread by Marina2 - [ame=http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4010000&postcount=35]KC did NOT graduate, shown here.[/ame]

 

[Tuffy]

Excellent addition to myth busters thread by Marina2 - KC did NOT graduate, shown here.

Didn't we have her high school records in one of the document dumps that showed that she did graduate? I'm gonna try to search, but I don't remember where I saw it.

Here is her high school transcript that says she received a diploma:

Page 47

http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/Stories/Local/Anthony%20pgs%202501-2550f.pdf

 

[JBean]

Excellent addition to myth busters thread by Marina2 - KC did NOT graduate, shown here.

Didn't we have her high school records in one of the document dumps that showed that she did graduate? I'm gonna try to search, but I don't remember where I saw it.

Here is her high school transcript that says she received a diploma:

Page 47

http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/Stories/Local/Anthony%20pgs%202501-2550f.pdf

yes I had to delete my own entry a that she did graduate and I also have to delete marinas entry because we have conflicting info.

the school reports and CA reports do not support each other. So someone is mistaken but we do not know who.

 

[butwhatif?]

I would like to debate this post on the myth buster thread.

According to the link provided, the substance on the paper towels was full of maggots and attracting flies. The fatty acid ratios of the substance were also consistent with the composition of pig or human decomposition.

Maggots don't live & thrive on soap, makeup and other similar compounds. If soap attracted flies people would stop taking baths.

I think the maggots take away the possibility of the substance being soap or makeup and that that part of this myth buster should be taken out.

I also think that the "fatty ratios of the substance are consistent with pig or human decompostion" needs to be added.
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c341/jazlynsmum1/papertowelanalyis.png

I was watching a stream of Law and order the other night where they found a stain in the outline of a human body caused by adipocere. The mentioned that adipocere cannot be removed....ever. The stain will always come back, regardless of how many times it is cleaned.
Now, I dont rely on info from a TV show, so I looked it up myself, and it seems to be true.
So if the state theorizes that the paper towels were used to clean up decomp including adipocere from the trunk of the car, then how is it that none was detected there? Other cases show it can still be detected after decades.
(NOTE: all references I've found are specific to concrete, not carpet, so I don't know if that makes a difference.)

Very interesting report of adipocere stain being tested after almost 30 yrs

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~jacksong...n remains from an indoor concrete surface.pdf

Now to the big discovery- Guess where else these same fatty acids are found? Marijuana! Which was the only other compound located on the paper towels. The ratios of these fatty acids vary depending on the individual test sample.

http://www.justice.gov/dea/programs/forensicsci/microgram/journal_v5_num14/pg3.html

~snip- more at above link~

ABSTRACT: Various fatty acids (palmitic, myristic, oleic, and stearic acids) were identified in 20 marijuana (cannabis leaf) samples recently seized on the illicit market in Rome, Italy. Samples were analyzed by gas chromatography/mass spectrometry to determine delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol, other minor cannabinoid congeners, and fatty acids. Although cannabis seeds and the oil derived from those seeds are known to be rich in fatty acids, this is believed to be the first study demonstrating the presence of fatty acids in marijuana. The potential value of the results in source determination and comparative analyses is discussed.

Now I'm wondering why this very significant point was not included in the report along with the speculation of it's possible source (no mention of other possible sources shows tunnel vision IMO.)
The defense are going to have a field day with this, and could rightly point out how biased the reports were.
My guess- they cleaned out their cone/pipe with the paper towels, or used the PT to wipe their sticky fingers from the marijuana resin. This theory accounts for every compound found on the PT. If it were adipocere there would be far more compounds detected according to the research I've done.

So why the "coffin" flies? Phorid flies will feed on decaying organic substances of all kinds.- Not just decaying bodies, as the reports would like us to believe.

Many phorids appear to be generalists, feeding on honeydew, plant sap, nectar, and dead insects, and Pseudacteon adults are also likely to be generalist feeders.

 

[treeseeker]

There was a small amount of plant material recovered from the paper towels by Dr. Haskell, the entomologist. They were sent back to OCSO last October. I haven't seen any test results as of yet, but believe this would be key in determining if marijuana residue was on the towels.

Pg. 2/30, here, Dr. Haskell's report:
http://www.clickorlando.com/download/2009/1106/21539770.pdf

 

[AZlawyer]

I was watching a stream of Law and order the other night where they found a stain in the outline of a human body caused by adipocere. The mentioned that adipocere cannot be removed....ever. The stain will always come back, regardless of how many times it is cleaned.
Now, I dont rely on info from a TV show, so I looked it up myself, and it seems to be true.
So if the state theorizes that the paper towels were used to clean up decomp including adipocere from the trunk of the car, then how is it that none was detected there? Other cases show it can still be detected after decades.
(NOTE: all references I've found are specific to concrete, not carpet, so I don't know if that makes a difference.)

Very interesting report of adipocere stain being tested after almost 30 yrs

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~jacksong...n remains from an indoor concrete surface.pdf

Now to the big discovery- Guess where else these same fatty acids are found? Marijuana! Which was the only other compound located on the paper towels. The ratios of these fatty acids vary depending on the individual test sample.

http://www.justice.gov/dea/programs/forensicsci/microgram/journal_v5_num14/pg3.html

~snip- more at above link~


Now I'm wondering why this very significant point was not included in the report along with the speculation of it's possible source (no mention of other possible sources shows tunnel vision IMO.)
The defense are going to have a field day with this, and could rightly point out how biased the reports were.
My guess- they cleaned out their cone/pipe with the paper towels, or used the PT to wipe their sticky fingers from the marijuana resin. This theory accounts for every compound found on the PT. If it were adipocere there would be far more compounds detected according to the research I've done.

So why the "coffin" flies? Phorid flies will feed on decaying organic substances of all kinds.- Not just decaying bodies, as the reports would like us to believe.

Thanks for doing this research and reminding us not to call the fatty acids found "human decomposition" without thinking about other possibilities. It looks like the fatty acid profile for marijuana mentioned in this report abstract is quite a bit different from that found on the paper towels, though. On towels: Oleic/vaccenic 38%, palmitic 33%, stearic 23% and myristic 6%. Looks like for marijuana it is lots of palmitic acid and very little of anything else. But I know there are issues of the fatty acid %ages changing over time, conditions, etc. Hopefully someone who didn't sleep through chemistry class will comment further.

 

[cecybeans]

Maybe it would be good to repost this on our welcome-to-the-new-resident-chemist thread.

 

[Jolynna]

Maybe it would be good to repost this on our welcome-to-the-new-resident-chemist thread.

Good idea.

Arpad Vass wrote the report. In my opinion, if either Bill Bass, Dr. Haskell or Dr. Vass use the words "adipocere" or decomposition, you can take it to the bank.

About Dr. Vass:

http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2003-01/new-science-murder-victim-search

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/visibleproof...roofs/galleries/exhibition/body_image_40.html

http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/v37_1_04/article_18.shtml
http://whyfiles.org/192forensic_anthro/4.html

http://www.sarti.us/sarti/files/SearchForHumanRemains.pdf

 

[butwhatif?]

Maybe it would be good to repost this on our welcome-to-the-new-resident-chemist thread.

I've Pm'ed her and invited her to take a look. The other thread is specific to the chloroform, syringe etc, so I didnt want to go off topic there.

 

[DogMom2JoeAndWillie]

Hi guys, I got the PM from butwhatif? and have started reading through the thread. What, specifically, is it that you guys want me to look at? TIA!!