NC - Two Duke Lacrosse Players Indicted

[Masterj]

That's true. If they violate the rules of conduct of the school, regardless of where that violation occurs, they'll suffer the consequences.

Aren't there already a bunch of complaints or infractions with this team on Duke record?

IMO, if they had been caught drinking they probably would have gotten a slap on the wrist as most college athletes do.

 

[PrayersForMaura]

Aren't there already a bunch of complaints or infractions with this team on Duke record?

IMO, if they had been caught drinking they probably would have gotten a slap on the wrist as most college athletes do.

Not by their parents. it's one thing to get a slap on the wrist from school. Most kids don't care as much what the school thinks as they do what their parents think.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Aren't there already a bunch of complaints or infractions with this team on Duke record?

IMO, if they had been caught drinking they probably would have gotten a slap on the wrist as most college athletes do.

Could be!

 

[close_enough]

Interesting...because I heard one of the boys' female friends on Catherine Crier(?) stating that it was really ironic that the two boys arrested were the most afflluent on the team (as another poster mentioned).

I also heard (I think) that the girls were paid once they arrived. Perhaps, there was a struggle to get their money back because the girls performed for about three minutes or whatever it was...

ok, missed this comment somehow.....

i didn't know if the girls were paid there at the house....i guess i just assumed they did this over the phone/internet w/a credit card....

 

[close_enough]

Aren't there already a bunch of complaints or infractions with this team on Duke record?

IMO, if they had been caught drinking they probably would have gotten a slap on the wrist as most college athletes do.

ain't that the truth!...some of these athletes, college or pro, get away w/murder...sometimes literally

 

[nanandjim]

ok, missed this comment somehow.....

i didn't know if the girls were paid there at the house....i guess i just assumed they did this over the phone/internet w/a credit card....

I can't say with 100 percent certainty; however, I think that I heard or read that they were paid once they got to the house.

 

[Summerskye1]

I also thought I heard that the women were paid once they got to the house. Come to think of it, I actually only remember hearing that a witness (a neighbor, maybe?) heard one of the women and one or more of the boys talking cash while they were outside on the steps. I thought this person had also seen cash exchanging hands, but maybe not.

Wouldn't this typically be a cash business, though? I mean, if the boys were discreet enough to give false names and pretend they were the baseball team, I doubt they would pay by credit card...

 

[Wudge]

I'm sorry for all women who have been raped, because I never want to doubt a woman's story. I know, I've been there myself.

But I am really having a hard time believing this one.
I hate to ever doubt a person's story in a matter that is so serious.
But this case is just too questionable.

I pray that this woman gets the help she deserves. But I also pray that if these young men are innocent, that they can recover from the damage this has caused them and their families.

For a variety of reasons, the clear majority of Americans "want" to believe that people are guilty. That's why crimetainment sells so amazingly well; it gives "wanting" Americans exactly what they desire, a surely "guilty" person(s) they can scum over with or without reliable, valid and sufficient incriminating evidence.

Watch high-profile cases on TV and you will find that "guilty" sells; but "innocent" means channel changing is taking place. Watch internet crime forums, and you will find that if exculpatory evidence comes out, "guilties" start to quickly disappear.

Innocent will not sell National Enquirers; guilty will clear the shelves in nanoseconds.

Wanting "guilt" destroys our presumption of innocence standard. Today, presumed guilty has become our cultural standard, because guilt is desired, not innocence.

Like drugs, nothing good comes of "wanting guilt", nothing. It is a pox on our society.

 

[Summerskye1]

Also, and this is only IMHO, I can easily see a college party (even off-campus) breaking up pretty fast if they thought the police were gonna be called for ANY reason (such as the strippers calling 911 about the alleged slurs). Some of the guys may have been on disciplinary (or regular) probation already, and an alcohol violation can sometimes mean getting kicked out of the dorms, getting suspended from school, being forced to go to alcohol treatment, etc. And that's just what the school could do - I don't have any idea what the team could impose on top of that.

If it's true that these guys had an "Animal House" kind of reputation, it might have been the case that some of them were already on "double secret probation."

 

[CordovaMom]

I also thought I heard that the women were paid once they got to the house. Come to think of it, I actually only remember hearing that a witness (a neighbor, maybe?) heard one of the women and one or more of the boys talking cash while they were outside on the steps. I thought this person had also seen cash exchanging hands, but maybe not.

Wouldn't this typically be a cash business, though? I mean, if the boys were discreet enough to give false names and pretend they were the baseball team, I doubt they would pay by credit card...

The search warrant for McFayden's dorm room (they guy that wrote the nasty email) said that the victim reported that the accused took $400 in cash from her purse after the rape. So I do think they were paid in cash.

 

[ccoaster]

I have no idea if she was raped or not. Unless there were bystanders, only the alleged victim, her alleged rapists and a power higher than you and I would know that.

In all cases, I simply hold to the presumption of innocence unless reliable and valid evidence takes me over the hurdle of: proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

Typically, high-profile cases are the media's opportunity to demonize a person or persons who is/are totally innocent. Thus, maintaining my stance is not only the path our legal system lives by, it is the intelligent and prudent approach to all cases.

Thank you for an excellent representation of my own feelings on this.
Some media newshounds should read your words and take a deep breath. IMO

 

[Details]

OK, someone here said they knew about the escort business - would they really have the money collected at the party? I thought they'd have it paid up front, directly to the business...at the very least most of it.

As to the party scattering - it was an illegal party for them, and they had to forfeit two games just for the party - for having booze and strippers - not for the rape allegations. So, yeah, I'm sure they ran for it when they heard LE was coming, to avoid getting in trouble with the coach - and I'm sure they were in tons of trouble - a top team, a chance at winning it all - and they have to forfeit games? Boy, the coach probably tore strips out of all of them!

I'm still leaning to believe the victim here - from what I'm hearing, her story is being backed up, and something definitely happened - and I still believe the medical examiners were right about their conclusions - they've got no reason to lie. Nothing so far has shown that the victim was drunk or high on arrival (other than defense attorneys, but the other dancer disagrees), and the security guard has said explicitly that while the driver of the car smelled drunk, the victim did not.

So far, the two suspects are being backed up by their friends, family, and former schools - but I bet those same people would also say that they never would have beat up a guy while yelling homosexual epithets. And yet, one of them did.

 

[CordovaMom]

OK, someone here said they knew about the escort business - would they really have the money collected at the party? I thought they'd have it paid up front, directly to the business...at the very least most of it.

As to the party scattering - it was an illegal party for them, and they had to forfeit two games just for the party - for having booze and strippers - not for the rape allegations. So, yeah, I'm sure they ran for it when they heard LE was coming, to avoid getting in trouble with the coach - and I'm sure they were in tons of trouble - a top team, a chance at winning it all - and they have to forfeit games? Boy, the coach probably tore strips out of all of them!

I'm still leaning to believe the victim here - from what I'm hearing, her story is being backed up, and something definitely happened - and I still believe the medical examiners were right about their conclusions - they've got no reason to lie. Nothing so far has shown that the victim was drunk or high on arrival (other than defense attorneys, but the other dancer disagrees), and the security guard has said explicitly that while the driver of the car smelled drunk, the victim did not.

So far, the two suspects are being backed up by their friends, family, and former schools - but I bet those same people would also say that they never would have beat up a guy while yelling homosexual epithets. And yet, one of them did.

Scott Peterson's family backed him as well. I'm leaning towards something happened at that party. The email from one of the team mates just an hour or so after the alleged rape is very disturbing to me. The missing 27 minutes of photos is disturbing to me. The condition of the stripper after the party (drunk or drugged?) is disturbing to me. However, I'm not adverse to believing that the stripper wants some revenge for the boys possibly stealing the $400 from her purse after the party. Before I'd make a determination either way I'd definitely want to know where the stripper was leading up to the party,I'd want to know if she had been drinking prior to arriving, I'd want to know definitively how she id'd the accused (was it a lineup with others pictures that were not on the lacrosse team?) I'd want to know if the alibis the defense says the boys have is true or just defense spin.

 

[mister happy]

OK, someone here said they knew about the escort business - would they really have the money collected at the party? I thought they'd have it paid up front, directly to the business...at the very least most of it.

As to the party scattering - it was an illegal party for them, and they had to forfeit two games just for the party - for having booze and strippers - not for the rape allegations. So, yeah, I'm sure they ran for it when they heard LE was coming, to avoid getting in trouble with the coach - and I'm sure they were in tons of trouble - a top team, a chance at winning it all - and they have to forfeit games? Boy, the coach probably tore strips out of all of them!

I'm still leaning to believe the victim here - from what I'm hearing, her story is being backed up, and something definitely happened - and I still believe the medical examiners were right about their conclusions - they've got no reason to lie. Nothing so far has shown that the victim was drunk or high on arrival (other than defense attorneys, but the other dancer disagrees), and the security guard has said explicitly that while the driver of the car smelled drunk, the victim did not.

So far, the two suspects are being backed up by their friends, family, and former schools - but I bet those same people would also say that they never would have beat up a guy while yelling homosexual epithets. And yet, one of them did.

Heck, I'm still leaning to believe accused. The ALLEGED victim is being backed by her friends and family, but I bet those same people would also say they would never steal a cab drivers keys, steal his cab, lead deputies on a 70 mph chase, try to run a deputy over, while DUI at twice the limit, while their children waited for them at home.

 

[christine2448]

Says she didn't see it, but believes something did happen. Hmmmmmm.

"I was not in the bathroom when it happened, so I can't say a rape occurred and I never will," Roberts told The Associated Press on Thursday in her first on-the-record interview.

"In all honesty, I think they're guilty," she said. "And I can't say which ones are guilty … but somebody did something besides underage drinking. That's my honest-to-God impression."


http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/LegalCenter/wireStory?id=1869877&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

Would it make them angry enough to hurt these girls? If so, sure would nip Jesse Jackson's theory about "white men and black women" in the butt, wouldn't it?

Yes. "Bait and switch" is VERY dangerous, but virtually every escort agency uses this tactic. The clients (rightly) feel like they are being mislead/ripped off. Also, another tactic is to use pictures of the girls that are, shall we say, less than representative--such as photos that were taken 10-25 years earlier!

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

But if the "girl" was not the one that you were "expecting" that was on the Internet, would you just not allow her to come in to your "place" and say: You are not the girl that I saw on the Internet....how does that work exactly.

The john will do one of 4 things:
1-Tell the girl to go away.
2-Allow the girl to come in, but demand a price break (which is usually negotiable)
3-So horny he doesn't care.
4-Use the girl, then cancel the charge on his card (this called "charge back").

Some might get violent, but it's usually a part of #1 , not after the fact. Mostly it's verbal abuse more than anything else. Since the majority of girls I knew carried guns or had a "driver", it was never a real issue.

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

I can't say with 100 percent certainty; however, I think that I heard or read that they were paid once they got to the house.

That could still be via phone with a cred it card. Usually what occurs is that the girl gets the credit card from the cleint, calls the agency, and rads the card, its expiration date & other info off, and then must wait for a "go ahead" code from the credit card company to make sure the card is not maxxed out or stolen.

 

[blonde1]

don

Says she didn't see it,..."In all honesty, I think they're guilty," she said. "And I can't say which ones are guilty … but somebody did something besides underage drinking. That's my honest-to-God impression."

Not seeing anyting, but having a really strong gut feeling doesn't count for much.

This whole thing seems to me like another example of the consequences of sleaziness on everybody's part -- rich or poor, black or white, equal opportunity sleaziness. Do they EVER consider that when there's drinking and promiscuity bad things are more likely to happen?
Am I just too old fashioned in wishing that parents would tell their kids that getting wasted with the boys/girls at a party and/or becoming a stripper increases your risk of trouble?
How many of them will be right back partying, talking trash, and ending up talking with the police next weekend?
JMO, but it bothers me when parents say "What can I do? Kids do what they want."
Would it make a difference if parents were more involved or are most parents in the same weekend party haze themselves?
Of course the lacrosse guys are all lawyered up and the families are publicly supporting them - there are reputations at stake --
I hope they get to the truth in this one...

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

don
Not seeing anyting, but having a really strong gut feeling doesn't count for much.

This whole thing seems to me like another example of the consequences of sleaziness on everybody's part -- rich or poor, black or white, equal opportunity sleaziness. Do they EVER consider that when there's drinking and promiscuity bad things are more likely to happen?
Am I just too old fashioned in wishing that parents would tell their kids that getting wasted with the boys/girls at a party and/or becoming a stripper increases your risk of trouble?
How many of them will be right back partying, talking trash, and ending up talking with the police next weekend?
JMO, but it bothers me when parents say "What can I do? Kids do what they want."
Would it make a difference if parents were more involved or are most parents in the same weekend party haze themselves?
Of course the lacrosse guys are all lawyered up and the families are publicly supporting them - there are reputations at stake --
I hope they get to the truth in this one...

Kind of hard for parents to go to college with their kids.
Then again, this is what is called the learning curve. This is where you learn the hard way that excessive drinking/partying and getting involved in marginally criminal activities has a definite downside.