NC - Two Duke Lacrosse Players Indicted

[Bobbisangel]

I'm not ready to throw this woman to the wind and say that she is lying. I don't have any idea what the Pros has...he hasn't shared that info with us yet. The defense is throwing something out there every day probably hoping that this woman will drop the charges or refuse to testify. We saw it happen in the Kobe Bryant case and the defense is trying the same strategy now. Kobe's accuser did refuse to testify but Kobe ended up paying her a big sum of money. Why did he pay her off instead of going into a civil suit? Maybe because Kobe didn't want to have to get on the witness stand. We will never know what the truth was.

This woman was 14 yrs old when she claimed that she was raped by three men. From what I understand she had a breakdown after the rape and received therapy and medication. That sounds reasonable to me. I know of a girl who has been in a mental institution for years as the result of a rape when she was in her teens. Her mind couldn't deal with the assult. It does happen. She may not have wanted to report the rape at the time that she did. She may have been coaxed into reporting it and then refused to go through with it. If she had a breakdown due to the rape it seems logical to me that she wouldn't want to relive it in court.

We might not know this woman's name but I'll bet it is known in the town she is from. We also don't know the guys involved. One of them might have a clean record but the skinny one doesn't. It doesn't say much for him when he is walking down the street and him and his buddys beat up a gay man just because he is gay. Maybe he felt the same way about a black stripper. Maybe he felt like she deserved to be roughed up.

We do know what the hospital had to say about this woman when she was examined. It sounds like there is plenty of proof that she was raped. I don't think that we know half of the facts yet. All we are hearing is one side of the story. I'm going to wait until I know all of the facts....during the trial if there is one before I judge this woman to be a liar.

 

[Floh]

I'm not ready to throw this woman to the wind and say that she is lying. I don't have any idea what the Pros has...he hasn't shared that info with us yet. The defense is throwing something out there every day probably hoping that this woman will drop the charges or refuse to testify. We saw it happen in the Kobe Bryant case and the defense is trying the same strategy now. Kobe's accuser did refuse to testify but Kobe ended up paying her a big sum of money. Why did he pay her off instead of going into a civil suit? Maybe because Kobe didn't want to have to get on the witness stand. We will never know what the truth was.

This woman was 14 yrs old when she claimed that she was raped by three men. From what I understand she had a breakdown after the rape and received therapy and medication. That sounds reasonable to me. I know of a girl who has been in a mental institution for years as the result of a rape when she was in her teens. Her mind couldn't deal with the assult. It does happen. She may not have wanted to report the rape at the time that she did. She may have been coaxed into reporting it and then refused to go through with it. If she had a breakdown due to the rape it seems logical to me that she wouldn't want to relive it in court.

We might not know this woman's name but I'll bet it is known in the town she is from. We also don't know the guys involved. One of them might have a clean record but the skinny one doesn't. It doesn't say much for him when he is walking down the street and him and his buddys beat up a gay man just because he is gay. Maybe he felt the same way about a black stripper. Maybe he felt like she deserved to be roughed up.

We do know what the hospital had to say about this woman when she was examined. It sounds like there is plenty of proof that she was raped. I don't think that we know half of the facts yet. All we are hearing is one side of the story. I'm going to wait until I know all of the facts....during the trial if there is one before I judge this woman to be a liar.

I'm with Bobbisangel on this one so far. i'm certainly with Bobbisangel regarding the thought the chap who beat up the gay man is far from an upstanding citizen. there is an awful lot coming out of the defence to sully this woman's reputation and perhaps convince her to back off. we, the public, don't know what the prosecution team have and really shouldn't know what either side have before any trial which may result.

 

[Vet4Bush]

We know her name. All you gotta do is google Duke Rape Accuser Name and you'll see it. Where is Bill Cosby when we need him?

 

[nanandjim]

I might be more inclined to believe her rape story if they didn't have a photo of her smiling as she was leaving the house. If someone had been raped and beaten, I don't think that they would in any way be smiling as a photo was being taken.

 

[Sherlockmom]

>We do know what the hospital had to say about this woman when she was examined. It sounds like there is plenty of proof that she was raped.What the talking heads never seem to mention is that those injuries can also occur with consensual rough sex. Those injuries alone do not prove that she was raped. Some of her other injuries could have occured from drunkeness and falling down.

Also, considering the type of work she does those injuries could have been caused by her pimp or a previous client. Since there was no identifiable DNA found on her unless the DA has an ace up his sleeve all he really has to go on is her word against the boys.

They all deserve their day in court but my gut feeling is that she made these charges up. If so, the real crime against women here is that it will make it harder for other women to be believed.

If the DA hadn't of used her to help himself get elected and to try to start a race riot perhaps she wouldn't feel so threatened, there wouldn't have been a big media brouhaha and she'd still be willing to testify if she was telling the truth.

Rapes happen everyday in this country. What makes this one any different? Think about it. It's the public and media frenzy that the DA whipped up to get the support of mostly black voters. Whether she is telling the truth or not, he has used her in a very unethical fashion.

Sherlockmom

 

[mic730]

Here are 2 links to the Essence magazine article about the accuser and her family. The accusers name has been mentioned by a couple of radio show hosts. Matt Drudge is one. I am conflicted on the issue of revealing the name.

http://www.essence.com/essence/lifestyle/takeastand/0,16109,1186512,00.html

And another link about the past allegations from the accusers family outlook.
http://www.essence.com/essence/lifestyle/takeastand/0,16109,1188001,00.html

 

[Olivia77]

Also, considering the type of work she does those injuries could have been caused by her pimp or a previous client. Since there was no identifiable DNA found on her unless the DA has an ace up his sleeve all he really has to go on is her word against the boys.

Is there a link verifying this woman is a known prostitute with a pimp?

 

[Sherlockmom]

>Is there a link verifying this woman is a known prostitute with a pimp?<


If you re-read what I wrote I said "considering her line of work those injuries could have been caused by a pimp or a previous client". I didn't say they WERE or she WAS. The key word was COULD. If this was a fact I would have provided a link. I didn't think it wasn't okay here to speculate on possible scenarios. It seems to happen elsewhere on this website. And I believe that I heard a forensic expert mention this on a news show that rough sex could cause similar injuries and these types of injuries do not always mean a rape has occurred.

What I was saying is that considering her low morals it wouldn't be much of a leap would it? It was one possibility.

She may have been afraid to go back to her boss without the money for the dancing. She has previously shown up for a dancing audition intoxicated and stole a car. Perhaps she showed up for this job intoxicated as well, falling and causing the injuries. Maybe she didn't get paid as she didn't complete her dance and wasn't paid the full amount. There are two scenarios from there. Either she had to come up with a good reason for her boss why she was coming back with less than the anticipated pay or she did this as revenge against the boys because she was angry she did not get her full pay.

Sherlockmom

 

[Sherlockmom]

Interesting article in the Boston Globe.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/05/01/the_rape_charge_as_weapon/


Read the part about the police officer that was falsely accused, his wife recanted and the other supposed victim admitted that she made up the charges. He did prison time.

The article also states that the false accusation rate according to the FBI is 9% and date rape researcher Eugene Kanin puts that rate at one and four.

Excerpt:
"to recognize that some women wrongly accuse men of rape is not antifemale, any more than recognizing that some men rape women is antimale. Is it so unreasonable to think that a uniquely damaging charge will be used by some people as a weapon, just as others will use their muscle? Do we really believe that when women have power -- and there is power in an accusation of rape -- they are less likely to abuse it than men? As Columbia University law professor George Fletcher has written, ''It is important to defend the interests of women as victims, but not to go so far as to accord women complaining of rape a presumption of honesty and objectivity."

If that's the lesson of the Duke case, then some good will have come of it after all.<<



Sherlockmom

 

[Olivia77]

>Is there a link verifying this woman is a known prostitute with a pimp?<


If you re-read what I wrote I said "considering her line of work those injuries could have been caused by a pimp or a previous client". I didn't say they WERE or she WAS. The key word was COULD. If this was a fact I would have provided a link. I didn't think it wasn't okay here to speculate on possible scenarios. It seems to happen elsewhere on this website. And I believe that I heard a forensic expert mention this on a news show that rough sex could cause similar injuries and these types of injuries do not always mean a rape has occurred.

What I was saying is that considering her low morals it wouldn't be much of a leap would it? It was one possibility.

She may have been afraid to go back to her boss without the money for the dancing. She has previously shown up for a dancing audition intoxicated and stole a car. Perhaps she showed up for this job intoxicated as well, falling and causing the injuries. Maybe she didn't get paid as she didn't complete her dance and wasn't paid the full amount. There are two scenarios from there. Either she had to come up with a good reason for her boss why she was coming back with less than the anticipated pay or she did this as revenge against the boys because she was angry she did not get her full pay.

Sherlockmom

I asked the question because despite the use of the word "could" there were strong implications in that statement and I thought perhaps someone had read something somewhere I didn't have a chance to see. It didn't cross my mind that this woman could be a hooker, because I have heard of other college students stripping their ways through college, and not incorporating prostitution.

Who said it wasn't okay to speculate? Not I!

 

[Olivia77]

Interesting article in the Boston Globe.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/05/01/the_rape_charge_as_weapon/


Read the part about the police officer that was falsely accused, his wife recanted and the other supposed victim admitted that she made up the charges. He did prison time.

The article also states that the false accusation rate according to the FBI is 9% and date rape researcher Eugene Kanin puts that rate at one and four.

Excerpt:
"to recognize that some women wrongly accuse men of rape is not antifemale, any more than recognizing that some men rape women is antimale. Is it so unreasonable to think that a uniquely damaging charge will be used by some people as a weapon, just as others will use their muscle? Do we really believe that when women have power -- and there is power in an accusation of rape -- they are less likely to abuse it than men? As Columbia University law professor George Fletcher has written, ''It is important to defend the interests of women as victims, but not to go so far as to accord women complaining of rape a presumption of honesty and objectivity."

If that's the lesson of the Duke case, then some good will have come of it after all.<<



Sherlockmom

Thank you for posting, interesting read!

 

[MSM]

I think the fact that the other dancer called 911 just to report racial slurs indicates that there was some motivation on the dancers' part to get revenge against the lacrosse players. I'm not saying that yelling racial slurs is not a horrible thing to do, but usually people don't call 911 to report them (at least as far as I know). I also think the report from the taxi driver that one lacrosse player said to another something like "she's just a stripper" could mean that the players had been threatened by the dancers; in that context, "she's just a stripper" could have been meant as "don't worry about it, no one will take her seriously anyway."

 

[Sherlockmom]

>I asked the question because despite the use of the word "could" there were strong implications in that statement and I thought perhaps someone had read something somewhere I didn't have a chance to see. It didn't cross my mind that this woman could be a hooker, because I have heard of other college students stripping their ways through college, and not incorporating prostitution.

Who said it wasn't okay to speculate? Not I! <<


Sorry, I must have misunderstood you. It was just speculation.

>I think the fact that the other dancer called 911 just to report racial slurs indicates that there was some motivation on the dancers' part to get revenge against the lacrosse players. <

This was the first red flag for me. People do not usually call 911 to report something like that. And the girl who made the call was really over-reacting IMO. Bad acting going on and on about how upset she was. It sounded like they were setting up some type of scenario.

I think she is in hiding because she is afraid that she has been caught in a very serious lie that may result in charges being brought against her (remember the runaway bride?). I'm sure she wishes that all of this would all go away. The coincidences between her last reported rape and this one were also striking. 3 rapists involved in both and then as now she claimed she was afraid for her life.

People with serious mental disorders many times are convinced that someone is out to get them or after them. Satan has been raping them at night etc. Combine a mental disorder with drug and/or alcohol use and perhaps someone that wasn't taking their medication and what have you got? I think that it was said she was intoxicated that night but why do we automatically jump to the conclusion that the guys drugged her? Could she not have shown up that way and unable to perform? She had done that in the past and ended up stealing a car.

I would like to see more evidence in this case. Was their toxicology tests run the night of the rape on her? What did they show? Any drugs or alcohol in her bloodstream. What kind of drug?

What were the details of her previous claim of rape? Did she ever report the details? If so were they similar to this rape story? She has a history of mental illness. I think this may be a factor in this case. Both she and her friend have changed their stories more than once and her friend also tried to cash in on it as well. Can we count on her story to be the truth? Which story? Put it all together with the lack of DNA evidence, the addition of the phantom broom, the alibis, the bad line-up, the cab driver witness etc and it makes for a very very weak case for the prosecution.

Sherlockmom

 

[evelyn24]

I agree Sherlockmom.
Sad thing is, the DA is the one most responsible for all this.
If the accuser has a mental illness, what is Nifong's excuse!
Most frightening thing, this obsessed DA might just win tomorrow night's primary and take that as a sign to keep going on and on with this pathetic case.

 

[nanandjim]

I think the fact that the other dancer called 911 just to report racial slurs indicates that there was some motivation on the dancers' part to get revenge against the lacrosse players. I'm not saying that yelling racial slurs is not a horrible thing to do, but usually people don't call 911 to report them (at least as far as I know). I also think the report from the taxi driver that one lacrosse player said to another something like "she's just a stripper" could mean that the players had been threatened by the dancers; in that context, "she's just a stripper" could have been meant as "don't worry about it, no one will take her seriously anyway."

I think the actions indicate something went wrong. I personally think that they decided to quit dancing after a few minutes because one of the players made a lewd remark. Then, the rest of the players were ticked off because they had paid for a full show, which they didn't get. A few probably did yell racial slurs because they felt that they were being ripped off. I just do not think that a rape occurred. I think that the second stripper was getting even for them forcibly taking the money back. Just my opinion, though, as I don't know if the DA has more conclusive evidence that he hasn't revealed.

 

[dale46]

Hi All,
Just thought I would jump in and put in my 2 cents worth.
I think that when the girls left the party the first time after they said they were insulted couldn't have been in to much fear, or they would have never went back in but they did.
From that time line she says that they were spit up, but then how in the world did she have time to get so drunk she could hardly talk unless she was drunk when she got there.
As to if the boys raped her or not I can say that it's sure possible that they did.
But the truth is that the life style alone is really like playing with a loaded gun.
You may strip for some guy who is shy and just wants to watch, or you may get a nut who tries to tare your clothes off.
No one has the right to rape a women no matter what, but again it's a dangerous lifestyle.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I think its possible that she was raped, possibly at the house, as she says. However, I think she's got the wrong guy(s). ATM machines, restaurant credit card receipts and a cab driver are all terrific things to have as far as an alibi goes. I see reasonable doubt all over the place and if I was the attorney for the young men, I would have filed a lawsuit already. Their lives may not be ruined, but they sure are screwed up for years. If they're innocent of this, its ridiciloo - as my daughter would say.

 

[MSM]

New article on CNN today:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/05/01/duke.rape.ap/index.html

One detail in this article that I hadn't heard before is that not only did the accuser make a previous rape allegation that she failed to follow up on, but she also previously accused her husband of trying to kill her, then failed to show at a court date and the complaint was dismissed. Each of these taken individually can be explained by extenuating circumstances, but together, they paint a portrait of a woman prone to false accusations.

Also in the article: the defense attorneys have moved to exclude the photo lineup.

 

[Details]

New article on CNN today:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/05/01/duke.rape.ap/index.html

One detail in this article that I hadn't heard before is that not only did the accuser make a previous rape allegation that she failed to follow up on, but she also previously accused her husband of trying to kill her, then failed to show at a court date and the complaint was dismissed. Each of these taken individually can be explained by extenuating circumstances, but together, they paint a portrait of a woman prone to false accusations.

Also in the article: the defense attorneys have moved to exclude the photo lineup.

Together they also paint an all too common picture of a woman who was sexually scarred early on, and that has lead to making more unwise or risky choices. It's just all too common - the poor upbringing, the tendency to go for abusive men, and excuse the abuse, taking jobs that reinforce rather than prevent the low self esteem that comes with all of this.

There are people out there who have boyfriend after boyfriend who is abusive, who get raped multiple times. It goes with problems that lead them to believe they are worthless, but there are plenty of them out there. I have known some of them. They make some bad choices, and there's something in the body language that just tells an abuser that this is a victim.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Details, I think you're on to something. If someone wants to be a stripper, I'm no one to tell them not to. However, at least in the "clubs," there are bouncers there to make sure that nothing is going to happen to them that they don't want to happen to them. Why she would make the choice to go to a private residence where she had no idea how many men would be there, if they'd be drunk idiots, etc., seems to me putting herself in a position where she could get hurt. I'm not saying she "deserved" for something to happen to her, but the fact is that as women, we have to try and keep ourselves out of situations where we don't have any control. This was a potentially very dangerous situation for her to put herself in.