NC - Two Duke Lacrosse Players Indicted

[Maybe So]

I agree.

Perhaps ladies who want to pursue these somewhat riskier than normal professions should make sure to take along a friend who isn't in on the act and who is carrying a cell phone in case of an emergency. In my mind going alone to strip or dance for a group of drunk men is something that every woman should realize could be risky for her to do alone. Taking precautions to keep themself safe would be a very good idea.

There are a lot of men out there who think that if a woman is a stripper or act provocatively then she won't mind anything they do to her....certainly that is not the case... but women need to be aware that there are men who think that way.

 

[Details]

Details, I think you're on to something. If someone wants to be a stripper, I'm no one to tell them not to. However, at least in the "clubs," there are bouncers there to make sure that nothing is going to happen to them that they don't want to happen to them. Why she would make the choice to go to a private residence where she had no idea how many men would be there, if they'd be drunk idiots, etc., seems to me putting herself in a position where she could get hurt. I'm not saying she "deserved" for something to happen to her, but the fact is that as women, we have to try and keep ourselves out of situations where we don't have any control. This was a potentially very dangerous situation for her to put herself in.

You see so many of these women on Cops - they keep putting themselves in the situation - getting a new abusive boyfriend to replace the last, going out on the streets where they are in danger, taking risky escort service jobs. Multiple crimes committed against them doesn't mean they are lying about the crimes, just that for whatever reason (and it seems a common thing), they've gotten caught into the low self esteem, or whatever it is that leads to this pattern of behavior and devaluing yourself enough to continue to take the risk.

My sister was a bit of one of these - she went through a few boyfriends, each worse than the last (fortunately 'merely' verbally abusive), then married their king. Extreme verbal, some physical abuse. How they find each other I don't know - I think some send out domination or needy/controlling vibes, and the other half sends out victim vibes. It took a good 7 years, but finally she got out, and spent awhile regaining herself, we got her to do some reading on abusive types, and she's finally making some better choices. But the fact that she complained of the treatment of her first boyfriends doesn't mean that when she complained about the last guy, that she was just a nag, or making stories up. It just meant she had a tendency to put herself in these situations.

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

I agree.

Perhaps ladies who want to pursue these somewhat riskier than normal professions should make sure to take along a friend who isn't in on the act and who is carrying a cell phone in case of an emergency. In my mind going alone to strip or dance for a group of drunk men is something that every woman should realize could be risky for her to do alone. Taking precautions to keep themself safe would be a very good idea.

There are a lot of men out there who think that if a woman is a stripper or act provocatively then she won't mind anything they do to her....certainly that is not the case... but women need to be aware that there are men who think that way.

Most escorts who do such parties are in constant touch with the agency via cell phone and usually have a male driver/bodyguard sitting out in the car watching the house. Most agencies will not send two girls to such calls (especially when the address is one they know to be in the campus/frat house area) without a credit card on file--not that they will charge it, but to have solid info/evidence in case of misbehavior. The belief is that they'll behave themslves if they know you have their financial and other personal info.

 

[Wudge]

Nifong won the election. Mission accomplished.

 

[christine2448]

Nifong won the election. Mission accomplished.

pffffft, idiot, IMO anyway. Nifong, not you wudge :blowkiss:

 

[mic730]

I am disappointed in the election. I do have concerns that Nifong is pursuing this case for political favor and I have always thought highly of Freda Black since the Michael Peterson trial.

 

[Sherlockmom]

>Nifong won the election. Mission accomplished.<


As I thought he would.

Sherlockmom

 

[christine2448]

Teammate Not Accused in Case Says No Rape Occurred and Duke Abandoned His Team.

A Duke lacrosse player who is not one of the men accused of raping an exotic dancer at an off-campus party says that his school abandoned the team, that his former coach had been "forced out," and that he is 100 percent certain no rape occurred.
In an exclusive interview with ABC News, the player — who insisted on anonymity and whose face was shadowed during the interview — told ABC North Carolina affiliate WTVD reporter Darla Miles on Monday that last month's indictment of two of his teammates was "probably the most emotional day of my life."

More here

 

[Jeana (DP)]

They were talking about this case on Hannity and Colms last night. They said that the accuser in this case was only shown photographs of Lacrosse players during the "photo line up," but that the defense will try to have this "evidence" dismissed because there were indeed non-lacrosse team members" at the party.

At my son's school the other night, they were handing out academnic awards and one of them is the Duke TIP Program, of which my son has been associated with since the 4th grade (he's now in 7th). The remarks that I heard from other audience members made me realize just how horribly the entire school's reputation will be affected by this case. I was thinking at the time what a horrible, horrible shame it would be if she's not telling the truth and the reputations of these boys and the lacrosse team, specifically, and the entire school suffer unnecessarily because of whatever problems she's got that got the ball rolling.

Her ex-husband has also come out and said that the story that she told previously about him "attacking" her is untrue, but that he believes her with regard to "this" story. The panel of "experts" agreed that getting this guy on the stand to try and explain that would be difficult and would only serve to negatively affect her credibility, something that she cannot afford to have happen at this juncture. Without evidence, this is strictly a case of credibility, so there would be a greater chance of having evidence of "priors" being introduced into evidence. There doesn't appear to be much evidence of their guilt, but there does seem to be plenty of exculpatory evidence.

I'm still on the fence on this one, but I think I lean towards either nothing happening to her or nothing happening to her at the party.

The timeline of the first time-stamped photographs and eyewitness accounts of what time she arrived and when one of the accused leaves the party only leaves him about 3 minutes to brutally attack her for 30 minutes. Now either the laws of time and space are suspended in that house or someone's not telling the truth. Since there's no reason for the time-stamped photographs, the ATM machine, his telephone records, the cab driver, the restaurant credit card machine or his dorm room card swipe machine to lie, that don't leave much wiggle room.

 

[Wudge]

They were talking about this case on Hannity and Colms last night. They said that the accuser in this case was only shown photographs of Lacrosse players during the "photo line up," but that the defense will try to have this "evidence" dismissed because there were indeed non-lacrosse team members" at the party.

At my son's school the other night, they were handing out academnic awards and one of them is the Duke TIP Program, of which my son has been associated with since the 4th grade (he's now in 7th). The remarks that I heard from other audience members made me realize just how horribly the entire school's reputation will be affected by this case. I was thinking at the time what a horrible, horrible shame it would be if she's not telling the truth and the reputations of these boys and the lacrosse team, specifically, and the entire school suffer unnecessarily because of whatever problems she's got that got the ball rolling.

Her ex-husband has also come out and said that the story that she told previously about him "attacking" her is untrue, but that he believes her with regard to "this" story. The panel of "experts" agreed that getting this guy on the stand to try and explain that would be difficult and would only serve to negatively affect her credibility, something that she cannot afford to have happen at this juncture. Without evidence, this is strictly a case of credibility, so there would be a greater chance of having evidence of "priors" being introduced into evidence. There doesn't appear to be much evidence of their guilt, but there does seem to be plenty of exculpatory evidence.

I'm still on the fence on this one, but I think I lean towards either nothing happening to her or nothing happening to her at the party.

The timeline of the first time-stamped photographs and eyewitness accounts of what time she arrived and when one of the accused leaves the party only leaves him about 3 minutes to brutally attack her for 30 minutes. Now either the laws of time and space are suspended in that house or someone's not telling the truth. Since there's no reason for the time-stamped photographs, the ATM machine, his telephone records, the cab driver, the restaurant credit card machine or his dorm room card swipe machine to lie, that don't leave much wiggle room.

Three players allegedly raped a stripper. She identified two of the three. One of whom was clearly "falsely identified. Hence, the stripper's eyeball reliability is shot.

Moreover, she used scrathes as part of her ID methodology. Further still, only photos of lacross players were shown, which means she had to ID a lacross player, for no other options existed.

Net, she had to be right. In a situation where she had to right: She wasn't. She was not even close.

Further yet, she alleged to have previously been raped by "three" men. LE thought her prior claim was so egregious, they did nothing.

Even further, DNA results exonerate all of the lacross players.

Ok then. Let's sum up. This case represents a race card FUBAR, ala Tawana Brawley.

Nevertheless, the D.A., Michael Nifong, saw fit to use this racial FUBAR to get re-elected in Durham; a town that is 45% black and horrendously divided by race.

Even beyond the veil of good faith the D.A. is supposed to to use in presenting what they know to a grand jury, Nifong refused to even listen to what one of the defense attorneys had for exculpatory evidence. Thus, Nifong went before the grand jury in a state of willfull blindness.

A pox on hiim. He should be removed from office and disbarred.

However, this is North Carolina. Malacious prosecution, railroading the innocent, willful blindness and hiding exonerating and/or exculpatory evidence is a way of life for NC propsecutors.

As things stand: The race card and politics have been used to destroy the lives of two young men. May Nifong rot in hell.

 

[ccoaster]

Three players allegedly raped a stripper. She identified two of the three. One of whom was clearly "falsely identified. Hence, the stripper's eyeball reliability is shot.

Moreover, she used scrathes as part of her ID methodology. Further still, only photos of lacross players were shown, which means she had to ID a lacross player, for no other options existed.

Net, she had to be right. In a situation where she had to right: She wasn't. She was not even close.

Further yet, she alleged to have previously been raped by "three" men. LE thought her prior claim was so egregious, they did nothing.

Even further, DNA results exonerate all of the lacross players.

Ok then. Let's sum up. This case represents a race card FUBAR, ala Tawana Brawley.

Nevertheless, the D.A., Michael Nifong, saw fit to use this racial FUBAR to get re-elected in Durham; a town that is 45% black and horrendously divided by race.

Even beyond the veil of good faith the D.A. is supposed to to use as they present what they know to a grand jury, Nifong refused to even listen to what one of the defense attorneys had for exculpatory evidence. Thus, Nifong went before the grand jury in a state of willfull blindness.

A pox on hiim. He should be removed from office and disbarred.

However, this is North Carolina. Malacious prosecution, railroading the innocent, willful blindness and hiding exonerating and/or exculpatory evidence is a way of life for NC propsecutors.

As things stand: The race card and politics have been used to destroy the lives of two young men.

May Nifong rot in hell.

Thank you for expressing this whole disaster so well. I fully agree with your sentiments. When a DA goes to this extreme to be elected, it is a tragedy for his community. :loser:

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Wudge, you couldn't be more right. However, since I don't know the history of Nifong, I don't know if I'd be willing to shoot his entire career down the toilet. I would have rather had him not be re-elected, hopefully, a judge will throw the case against these two young men out and give him a pretty good ear full. The other players feel that he will name the third "suspect" and have someone arrested at random, so the sooner the better.

 

[mssheila]

I'm leaning a little towards the players lately, but still on the fence. The one remaining issue for me is this: WHY would she submit to a rape kit exam if she hadn't been raped. And I cannot imagine anyone self-inflicting the kind of damage she reportedly had to her privates... especially to the anal area. Who would do that? I mean.... how did those injuries get there if nothing happened. Yet, she's saying now, through her father, that she may not testify because she's had so many death threats, etc... The perfect "out" for her.

 

[christine2448]

I'm leaning a little towards the players lately, but still on the fence. The one remaining issue for me is this: WHY would she submit to a rape kit exam if she hadn't been raped. And I cannot imagine anyone self-inflicting the kind of damage she reportedly had to her privates... especially to the anal area. Who would do that? I mean.... how did those injuries get there if nothing happened. Yet, she's saying now, through her father, that she may not testify because she's had so many death threats, etc... The perfect "out" for her.

Hiya msshiela, that is the BIG question....the rape kit, and the injuries reported......I want to know where she was before this party, she may have been roughed up by other clients, maybe doing a little more then dancing to earn a living, I don't know. What I do know, is I hope the REAL truth comes out eventually.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I'm leaning a little towards the players lately, but still on the fence. The one remaining issue for me is this: WHY would she submit to a rape kit exam if she hadn't been raped. And I cannot imagine anyone self-inflicting the kind of damage she reportedly had to her privates... especially to the anal area. Who would do that? I mean.... how did those injuries get there if nothing happened. Yet, she's saying now, through her father, that she may not testify because she's had so many death threats, etc... The perfect "out" for her.

That's a good question. She apparently did have "injuries consistent with an assault," but once again, the DNA didn't match any of the players. So, again we come back to her possibly being assaulted somewhere else. We know it didn't happen after the party, but possibly before. The question I have then is who did it and why would she want to place the blame on the team members? The photographs of her at the party were of her smiling and having a good time, INCLUDING the one taken as she was leaving. If she get get assaulted before she even got to the party, then the injuries must have been greatly exaggerated because she didn't appear to be "beaten up" in the photographs.

 

[MSM]

I want to know where she was before this party.

I bet the answer to this question would answer a lot of other questions. How did she get so intoxicated that when she arrived at the party, the other dancer described her as "glassy-eyed" while performing? How did she get the bruises that she had when she arrived? Did she have sex that evening prior to the party? If so, could her rape kit findings be from that encounter? Who was she with? Who dropped her off at the party? Is there a reason that no one has come forward to admit to being with her?

 

[Floh]

I'm leaning a little towards the players lately, but still on the fence. The one remaining issue for me is this: WHY would she submit to a rape kit exam if she hadn't been raped. And I cannot imagine anyone self-inflicting the kind of damage she reportedly had to her privates... especially to the anal area. Who would do that?

Munchausen syndrome?

This usually presents as a disease, but not always. people have been known to claim falsly attained injuries. and they would, sadly, submit to a rape kit exam.

i am not referring to Munchausen by proxy, here.

i think if she were assaulted before she arrived at the party by A.N. Other, gossip would have circulated by now, if only from the other girl who was with her.

i have been on the fence about this case for so long, which is why i started this thread by saying let's not bash the victim, yet here i am questioning her veracity myself and i feel a little shamefaced doing so. the things which are coming out make it very hard not to question her, IMO.

 

[Sherlockmom]

>WHY would she submit to a rape kit exam if she hadn't been raped. And I cannot imagine anyone self-inflicting the kind of damage she reportedly had to her privates... especially to the anal area.<<

A couple of forensic experts on news shows have mentioned this. These types of injuries could occur after a session of consensual rough sex. Does she have a boyfriend? Perhaps a client? If she knew she had recently had sex she wouldn't object to the exam.

It is up to the prosecution to prove that these injuries were caused by these boys not to figure out who caused them.

Perhaps she is afraid of whomever it was that really raped her if indeed a rape did occur and doesn't want to point the finger at them.

Sherlockmom

 

[Sherlockmom]

>i have been on the fence about this case for so long, which is why i started this thread by saying let's not bash the victim, yet here i am questioning her veracity myself and i feel a little shamefaced doing so. <<



I don't think you should feel ashamed to question the veracity of the stripper here. She has said and done alot to cause question. Why would we assume that the woman would never lie about something like this but a man would? Women like about rape frequently enough to warrant doubt when the facts don't quite line up or the story sounds fishy. From the way some of the women talking heads are sounding they must have had a really bad relationship with a man in the past and will never forgive mankind for it for the rest of their lives. I don't know how else to explain their sudden need to throw all facts and reason to the wind in this case. As one other article stated the charge of rape is powerfull for a woman and why would we assume that a woman wouldn't use this power for revenge? Are women completely incapable of deceit? Or evil behavior? Or sin?

This woman did not arrive at the party at the same time as her friend. She arrived about a half hour later and was dropped off by someone who has not been named. Who was this person, why was she late and what was she doing prior to this time? We have yet to hear anything about it. This whole thing was cooked up I believe to cover up for something. I'd like to know what that is.

There is alot to question about the 911 call. There are discrepancies there and the whole thing sounds like a set up. Who calls 911 to tell the operator that someone called them a racial slur and they are angry? I would suspect that two strippers have most likely been called much worse. I don't think they are that fragile that they had to call 911 because someone called them a name.

The statement from the victim's family that she now runs away screaming when she sees a white man is rather interesting too if not an over-dramatization. If she was raped once before at the tender age of 14 was she running away from men screaming then? Were they black men or white men? If it was a black man why did she not run away from black men screaming? If she is doing this don't they think she needs some serious help?

Has the FBI been notified about any of the alleged "threats"? Or do we just have her family's say-so that these threats occurred? In one interview the father says phamplets were left on their lawn that said KKK on them but in the same interview says he never saw the phamplets because police took them away. Doesn't anyone find that odd? If someone had left a bunch of phamplets on your lawn wouldn't you have gone out and picked one up and read it? Or kept one of them to show to the media? I tell you, I had a hard time keeping a straight face reading some of this stuff. Probably another reason I would never be picked for a jury.

I believe her ex husband has admitted that she lied in the past about an assault. So why now should we believe she is telling the truth? Why do people seem to automatically believe her but not the boys?

If you sat down and actually made a list of the things that go against her story and the things that go against the boys I think we would find only on the boys side that they were white, well-off and played sports. One of the boys had charges against him for assault for a fight however the victim has a list of charges drug/alchohol related and a past history of being deceitful about being attacked. I find it interesting that anyone would feel any guilt about doubting her story.

I do not think there was enough evidence to bring charges against these boys however it has been done. Now it has to play out. I predict however that if the girl will not testify (as she has not in the past) that the word will be that it was because she was afraid or intimidated. Not that she wasn't being truthful. I almost would like to see this played out in court so that she MUST testify and if lying exposed for it and the DA in this case discredited. She will never be the girl who lied but the poor black girl who was afraid to testify. Perpetually a victim.

I'm trying to find a quote from Dr. Michael Baden about the forensics in this case. Supposedly he was interviewed by Newsweek. Does anyone have that quote?

Sherlockmom

 

[Floh]

>i have been on the fence about this case for so long, which is why i started this thread by saying let's not bash the victim, yet here i am questioning her veracity myself and i feel a little shamefaced doing so. <<



I don't think you should feel ashamed to question the veracity of the stripper here. She has said and done alot to cause question. Why would we assume that the woman would never lie about something like this but a man would? Women like about rape frequently enough to warrant doubt when the facts don't quite line up or the story sounds fishy. From the way some of the women talking heads are sounding they must have had a really bad relationship with a man in the past and will never forgive mankind for it for the rest of their lives. I don't know how else to explain their sudden need to throw all facts and reason to the wind in this case. As one other article stated the charge of rape is powerfull for a woman and why would we assume that a woman wouldn't use this power for revenge? Are women completely incapable of deceit? Or evil behavior? Or sin?

This woman did not arrive at the party at the same time as her friend. She arrived about a half hour later and was dropped off by someone who has not been named. Who was this person, why was she late and what was she doing prior to this time? We have yet to hear anything about it. This whole thing was cooked up I believe to cover up for something. I'd like to know what that is.

There is alot to question about the 911 call. There are discrepancies there and the whole thing sounds like a set up. Who calls 911 to tell the operator that someone called them a racial slur and they are angry? I would suspect that two strippers have most likely been called much worse. I don't think they are that fragile that they had to call 911 because someone called them a name.

The statement from the victim's family that she now runs away screaming when she sees a white man is rather interesting too if not an over-dramatization. If she was raped once before at the tender age of 14 was she running away from men screaming then? Were they black men or white men? If it was a black man why did she not run away from black men screaming? If she is doing this don't they think she needs some serious help?

Has the FBI been notified about any of the alleged "threats"? Or do we just have her family's say-so that these threats occurred? In one interview the father says phamplets were left on their lawn that said KKK on them but in the same interview says he never saw the phamplets because police took them away. Doesn't anyone find that odd? If someone had left a bunch of phamplets on your lawn wouldn't you have gone out and picked one up and read it? Or kept one of them to show to the media? I tell you, I had a hard time keeping a straight face reading some of this stuff. Probably another reason I would never be picked for a jury.

I believe her ex husband has admitted that she lied in the past about an assault. So why now should we believe she is telling the truth? Why do people seem to automatically believe her but not the boys?

If you sat down and actually made a list of the things that go against her story and the things that go against the boys I think we would find only on the boys side that they were white, well-off and played sports. One of the boys had charges against him for assault for a fight however the victim has a list of charges drug/alchohol related and a past history of being deceitful about being attacked. I find it interesting that anyone would feel any guilt about doubting her story.

I do not think there was enough evidence to bring charges against these boys however it has been done. Now it has to play out. I predict however that if the girl will not testify (as she has not in the past) that the word will be that it was because she was afraid or intimidated. Not that she wasn't being truthful. I almost would like to see this played out in court so that she MUST testify and if lying exposed for it and the DA in this case discredited. She will never be the girl who lied but the poor black girl who was afraid to testify. Perpetually a victim.

I'm trying to find a quote from Dr. Michael Baden about the forensics in this case. Supposedly he was interviewed by Newsweek. Does anyone have that quote?

Sherlockmom

I agree with all you say here except for two things: these are men, absolutely not boys; and she isn't a girl.