NC - Two Duke Lacrosse Players Indicted

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At some point, it was reported that her initial allegation included 20 rapists. I don't have a link, it is just my own memory. I want to say that it was Abrams that reported this, for one... maybe I should check transcripts, it wasn't that long ago when that info came out.

ETA: I was just watching Fox news and one of the defense attornies named the AV by her FIRST AND LAST NAME in a press conference. :eek: I knew her name, but I thought the media was not to use it? Fox news didn't block it out, it seemed that they used that cliip purposely....

Has her name been used on TV before this?
 
Wudge said:
Durham politicians do not look to Duke's alumni (a minor voting faction) as key to their jobs. They look to the black community, which represents around 45% of Durham's voters.
They might vote, but they sure as hell don't contribute to fund raisers.
 
Their showing a story of a college hazing first, Then the Duke Story.
 
Anything new discussed, BeeBee?
 
JBean said:
Didn't she originally report she was attacked by 20 men? or I am getting all the 'facts" screwed up?

Yes, I heard this too that she reported 20 then 5 then 3 men attacked her. Also that there was no rape, there was a rape, that they did not use condoms, that the 2nd dancer helped them rape her and stole her money, that there were 3 other dancers, that she and the 2nd dancer tried to hold on to each but got seperated, that she was beaten and choked, that she was not beaten and choked. The list goes on and on with her numerous accounts.
 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/26/AR2006062600980.html


….journalists are tripping all over themselves to quickly and repetitively report the biased view of the young men's defense attorneys, family members, and other supporters. And the prosecutor, after saying a bit too much too early about his case, now is saying nothing at all, leaving the defense spin unchallenged and gaining both in perceived credence and volume. There is nothing wrong with this defense strategy -- I would do it, too, I suppose, if I were representing the alleged rapists -- but just because it's a good idea for lawyers doesn't meant it is good journalism. There is no balanced coverage in the Duke case. There is just one defense-themed story after another.

Take the Newsweek magazine storythat helped fuel a whole new round of recriminations against Durham District Attorney Mike Nifong, who has been portrayed over the past few months as a cross between Moe, Larry and Curly. The first graphs of the magazine piece detailed the moment when the white members of the lacrosse team were told by their attorney they had to give DNA samples as part of an effort by Nifong to identify the three men accused of rape.

The lawyer for the players is named Bob Elkstrand and you shouldn't be surprised to learn that his version of events at that moment plays neatly into the defense theme that has been offered up on behalf of the young men. "Elkstrand was struck," Newsweek reported, "to see how little hesitation the players showed. After all, if the DNA of any one of those men matched DNA found on the accuser's body, it could ruin his life; disgrace followed by many years in prison. But there was no talk of hiring individual lawyers or stalling for time; the players seemed to want to get on with it. 'I was watching to see if anyone hung back,' Elkstrand told Newsweek. No one did."

Now, I do not suggest that Elkstrand was lying to Newsweek (although lawyers lie to journalists all the time in the zealous representation of their clients). But obviously Elkstrand has a deep bias in favor of the people he is describing to Newsweek -- otherwise he wouldn't be worth his weight in gold lacrosse sticks as an attorney. Of course he is going to say that all of the players came forward. Of course he is going to say he "was struck" by their portrayed innocence. What else is he going to say? "I thought that one guy in the back looked a little shady?"

Given that Elkstrand hardly is in a position to offer anything but his own spin, what is his self-serving, client-serving description doing leading off a lengthy news-analysis piece? No amount of "on-the-other-hand" attempts at objectivity by the magazine ("It is possible, almost three months later, that the players are maintaining a conspiracy of silence," the article continues after its love-fest with Elkstrand) makes up for the fact that the first impression of the long piece comes, uncontroverted, from the defense team. That happened for a reason, right? It happened because Newsweek figured the little tale got across the point of the piece, that it was a perfect scene-setter for the substance of the piece that followed.

Of course, the story by Newsweek, which often sets the news agenda for the rest of the week, was widely imitated on cable television and in the blogosphere, where experts were happy to discuss what a disaster the prosecution was, what a fool Nifong was and how unjust it was that the charges hadn't already been dropped. The case against the players didn't publicly get weaker last week -- so far as I know -- but the appearance of the case did, which is precisely what defense attorneys wanted to occur in the court of public opinion as pretrial proceedings lead us either to a trial, a deal or a dismissal.

Likewise, the endless interviews with friends and family members of the accused are equally biased and have long become pointless. Of course, the parents of an accused young person are going to rise to his or her defense. Of course, friends and family are going to vouch for his or her integrity and raise questions about the evidence and the prosecutor's motives. We see it all the time in criminal cases, all over the country, only usually no one pays attention....

........The presiding judge long ago should have stepped into this case and shut up the defense teams with a gag order. Failing that, the media should have exercised more discretion in allowing advocates to dictate coverage.

Look, I don't know what happened at that house that night. And neither do you. And I wouldn't have done some of the things that the prosecutor has done to this point -- he started the media onslaught, after all. And neither probably would you. It is possible that a savage rape occurred. And it is possible that the young men who have been accused are victims, themselves, of an irresponsible accuser. The point is that we don't know. We haven't seen all of the evidence, haven't examined all of the testimony; haven't had the privilege of seeing the case unfold at trial the way it is supposed to.

Never mind quoting defense attorneys gospel. Never mind airing interviews with angry and frustrated family members who say what angry and frustrated family members always say when given the chance. The concept of not judging a book by its cover, or not declaring a winner in a ballgame before the first pitch is thrown, should be the first and last things out of the mouth of every reporter covering this sordid story. But they won't be.
 
jttnewguy said:



SNIP

........The presiding judge long ago should have stepped into this case and shut up the defense teams with a gag order. Failing that, the media should have exercised more discretion in allowing advocates to dictate coverage.
Look, I don't know what happened at that house that night. And neither do you. And I wouldn't have done some of the things that the prosecutor has done to this point -- he started the media onslaught, after all. And neither probably would you. It is possible that a savage rape occurred. And it is possible that the young men who have been accused are victims, themselves, of an irresponsible accuser. The point is that we don't know. We haven't seen all of the evidence, haven't examined all of the testimony; haven't had the privilege of seeing the case unfold at trial the way it is supposed to.

Never mind quoting defense attorneys gospel. Never mind airing interviews with angry and frustrated family members who say what angry and frustrated family members always say when given the chance. The concept of not judging a book by its cover, or not declaring a winner in a ballgame before the first pitch is thrown, should be the first and last things out of the mouth of every reporter covering this sordid story. But they won't be.


Though it migh be judicially appropriate, I would not like to see a gag order at this point. For the trial is not scheduled until the spring of next year, which means the three young men will remain under the darkest of clouds for a long time.

Nifong brough this fiasco right to the media's doorway by his desire to speak to reporters, over and over and over. As far as my sense of fairplay goes, I feel it is fitting that he suffer public ridicule until the trial starts, or until he finally has enough decency to end this charade wherein he pretends to have a winnable case.
 
jttnewguy said:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/26/AR2006062600980.html


….journalists are tripping all over themselves to quickly and repetitively report the biased view of the young men's defense attorneys, family members, and other supporters. And the prosecutor, after saying a bit too much too early about his case, now is saying nothing at all, leaving the defense spin unchallenged and gaining both in perceived credence and volume. There is nothing wrong with this defense strategy -- I would do it, too, I suppose, if I were representing the alleged rapists -- but just because it's a good idea for lawyers doesn't meant it is good journalism. There is no balanced coverage in the Duke case. There is just one defense-themed story after another.

Take the Newsweek magazine storythat helped fuel a whole new round of recriminations against Durham District Attorney Mike Nifong, who has been portrayed over the past few months as a cross between Moe, Larry and Curly. The first graphs of the magazine piece detailed the moment when the white members of the lacrosse team were told by their attorney they had to give DNA samples as part of an effort by Nifong to identify the three men accused of rape.

The lawyer for the players is named Bob Elkstrand and you shouldn't be surprised to learn that his version of events at that moment plays neatly into the defense theme that has been offered up on behalf of the young men. "Elkstrand was struck," Newsweek reported, "to see how little hesitation the players showed. After all, if the DNA of any one of those men matched DNA found on the accuser's body, it could ruin his life; disgrace followed by many years in prison. But there was no talk of hiring individual lawyers or stalling for time; the players seemed to want to get on with it. 'I was watching to see if anyone hung back,' Elkstrand told Newsweek. No one did."

Now, I do not suggest that Elkstrand was lying to Newsweek (although lawyers lie to journalists all the time in the zealous representation of their clients). But obviously Elkstrand has a deep bias in favor of the people he is describing to Newsweek -- otherwise he wouldn't be worth his weight in gold lacrosse sticks as an attorney. Of course he is going to say that all of the players came forward. Of course he is going to say he "was struck" by their portrayed innocence. What else is he going to say? "I thought that one guy in the back looked a little shady?"

Given that Elkstrand hardly is in a position to offer anything but his own spin, what is his self-serving, client-serving description doing leading off a lengthy news-analysis piece? No amount of "on-the-other-hand" attempts at objectivity by the magazine ("It is possible, almost three months later, that the players are maintaining a conspiracy of silence," the article continues after its love-fest with Elkstrand) makes up for the fact that the first impression of the long piece comes, uncontroverted, from the defense team. That happened for a reason, right? It happened because Newsweek figured the little tale got across the point of the piece, that it was a perfect scene-setter for the substance of the piece that followed.

Of course, the story by Newsweek, which often sets the news agenda for the rest of the week, was widely imitated on cable television and in the blogosphere, where experts were happy to discuss what a disaster the prosecution was, what a fool Nifong was and how unjust it was that the charges hadn't already been dropped. The case against the players didn't publicly get weaker last week -- so far as I know -- but the appearance of the case did, which is precisely what defense attorneys wanted to occur in the court of public opinion as pretrial proceedings lead us either to a trial, a deal or a dismissal.

Likewise, the endless interviews with friends and family members of the accused are equally biased and have long become pointless. Of course, the parents of an accused young person are going to rise to his or her defense. Of course, friends and family are going to vouch for his or her integrity and raise questions about the evidence and the prosecutor's motives. We see it all the time in criminal cases, all over the country, only usually no one pays attention....

........The presiding judge long ago should have stepped into this case and shut up the defense teams with a gag order. Failing that, the media should have exercised more discretion in allowing advocates to dictate coverage.

Look, I don't know what happened at that house that night. And neither do you. And I wouldn't have done some of the things that the prosecutor has done to this point -- he started the media onslaught, after all. And neither probably would you. It is possible that a savage rape occurred. And it is possible that the young men who have been accused are victims, themselves, of an irresponsible accuser. The point is that we don't know. We haven't seen all of the evidence, haven't examined all of the testimony; haven't had the privilege of seeing the case unfold at trial the way it is supposed to.

Never mind quoting defense attorneys gospel. Never mind airing interviews with angry and frustrated family members who say what angry and frustrated family members always say when given the chance. The concept of not judging a book by its cover, or not declaring a winner in a ballgame before the first pitch is thrown, should be the first and last things out of the mouth of every reporter covering this sordid story. But they won't be.
Well I'm not sure how you can call reading from court documents,police statements,and depositions defense spin.I don't know if the case against the players got weaker but I'm not sure if it could've gotten any weaker.This case is a disgrace to our legal systemand a huge blow for the women who actually get raped.
 
>Well I'm not sure how you can call reading from court documents,police statements,and depositions defense spin<



Well it was only an editorial so not required to contain any facts or logical thinking. Just someone's opinion who has probably read less about this case than you have :(

Jttnewguy: Be careful about posting entire articles to boards. This article like most printed in newspapers are copyrighted (in fact the copyright is right at the bottom of the article) and newspapers are not shy about going after people who do this.

I read at least one news message board that has a list of newspapers that have pursued these types of violations against them. Usually just an excerpt and a link are allowed by them. You don't want to get yourself into any legal trouble ;)

Sherlockmom
 
Well, there is somebody who thinks that Nifong has a strong case. Namely, Sports Illustrated magazine. The "Legal Affairs" writer, one Lester Munson, was on Catherine Crier today (Tuesday). Munson started by saying, "I see a certain SMUGNESS in the defense. Why are they so publicly insistent on their innocence." Munson kept saying things like, "I believe Nifong has more evidence. I think there is more. Nifong is a very experienced prosecutor. He wouldn't bring this case if he didn't believe it. There were racial slurs by these players. There was an air of MENACE in that house."

Munson went on in this vein, but never provided any more evidence. He expects a trial and hopes for a verdict of guilty. He has been on other shows in the last week declaring that Nifong has a stronger case than is thought.
 
paperhanger44z said:
Well I'm not sure how you can call reading from court documents,police statements,and depositions defense spin.I don't know if the case against the players got weaker but I'm not sure if it could've gotten any weaker.This case is a disgrace to our legal systemand a huge blow for the women who actually get raped.
I agree. In most cases, it is obvious when a defense attorney is trying to "spin" something in the media. In this case, however, the defense attorneys are actually releasing documents from the prosecution that weaken the prosecution's case. Furthermore, the methodology of the original lineup is suspect to even a novice observer like myself.

I think that we on WS, the media, and the public in general have every right to form an opinion about this case based on the information that has been released by both the prosecution and the defense. I will admit that at the very beginning, when I first read about this case, I assumed that the players were guilty and that a rape had occurred. However, all of the subsequent information that has been revealed about the changes in the accuser's story, her past history of making allegations and not following through with them, her multiple sexual encounters prior to arriving at the house, the other dancer's changing story, the questionable lineup technique, the lack of DNA evidence, and the cell phone records of the accused have changed my mind. Yes, it is possible that the prosecution has some damning evidence that they have kept secret, but I doubt it. So I really don't think it's fair to criticize anyone for forming an opinion about this case when there has been abundant evidence released that casts grave doubt on its merits...especially if the one doing the criticizing seems to be less informed than those on the receiving end.
 
I usually have a strong opinion one way or the other but on this case I'm going to wait and see during the trial. To me a rape case is totally different from a missing person or a murder. No matter what the defense has to say I don't know if they are spinning storys or intent on smearing the female so bad that they hope to taint a future jury or just want the media to have all of the information that they say that they have. I've only seen this done once before and that was in the Kobe Bryant case and the way that case was handled just made me feel sick. That female in that case didn't deserve the treatment that she got and the case shouldn't have been tried in the media. If ever a case had an impact on rape victims going to LE it was that one. I think that female attorney for Kobe broke every single rule including saying the female's name over and over. The judge did nothing about it. Paperwork was accidentally sent to the wrong people...accidentally my butt.

We have no idea what this female told who or how it was said or what condition she was in when they were questioning her. I prefer to not judge her or the Prosecutor until we see how the trial goes. I've heard that the Pros has had his position for many years and has always been known for being a fair honest man. I don't know why he would all of a sudden become dishonest and all about an election. He must have been elected every 4 years or so. This case and the trashing the female is getting makes me so uncomfortable and even angry at times. Just like in the Bryant case...it is beyond me why either female would lie about a rape and all of the chit that comes with it for what? It's not for attention because neither female has been anywhere near the media. The only female that has been in the media in this case is that other dancer and I'm wondering about her. Seems to me she thought she could build a career on this case or something????

The fact that the female left her belongings behind along with her money for the dances really raises a question in my mind regardless of what the defense is trying to spin. If the female was raped I hope that she hangs on and takes this case to court but I wouldn't blame her one bit if she said "to hell with it" just like the girl in the Bryant case did. Interesting but the accusations against the female in the Bryant case are so like the accusations against the female in this case. Wonder if the defense now has the paperwork from Kobe's attorney.
 
William N said:
SNIP

" Munson kept saying things like, "I believe Nifong has more evidence. I think there is more. Nifong is a very experienced prosecutor. He wouldn't bring this case if he didn't believe it. There were racial slurs by these players. There was an air of MENACE in that house."

Munson went on in this vein, but never provided any more evidence. He expects a trial and hopes for a verdict of guilty. He has been on other shows in the last week declaring that Nifong has a stronger case than is thought.


Munson "thinks" = not evidence

Munson "believes" = not evidence

"He wouldn't bring this case if he didn't believe it." = not evidence and logical fallacy

"There were racial slurs by these players." = not evidence that goes to rape

"There was an air of MENACE in that house." = not evidence, just spin

Please note that no evidence, whatsoever, was brought forth by Munson, just protective spin. And that fact that you say Munson "hopes" for a guilty verdict, means, in my book, he is as crooked and/or dumb as Nifong.
 
William N said:
Munson started by saying, "I see a certain SMUGNESS in the defense. Why are they so publicly insistent on their innocence." .
Is this Munson guy for real? Why are they so publicly insistent on their innocence? Umm, maybe because they ARE, in fact, innocent and don't take kindly to having their reputations smeared?????? And if they weren't so publicly insistent, I am quite sure the likes of Mr. Munson would decry their failure to assert their innocence.

I may have to write to Sports Illustrated...
 
The Sports Illustrated article was pretty fair. Munson is one of three writers who worked on the piece. He has been going on some of these shows giving his own opinions. Last week he called the lacrosse players "rich upper-middle class people with a sense of entitlement." I had never heard of him before now, but on TV he presents himself as a legal expert.
 
>"rich upper-middle class people with a sense of entitlement." I had never heard of him before now, but on TV he presents himself as a legal expert.



Is that the evidence that this "legal expert" hopes they are convicted with?

Is there public outrage over his words? I'm guessing not. Now if he had said "Low-class ho with no sense of morality and an inability to tell the truth" the public would be up in arms.

Sherlockmom
 
There is a difference between the Duke case and the other rape cases involving athletes. In the Kobe Bryant case, for example, Bryant admitted from the start that he had sex with the girl. He claimed it was consensual, as he knew that DNA would show this.

Last year's Navy quarterback (and a much more prominent athlete than Duke lacrosse players) has undergone the military equivalent of a grand jury hearing over a rape of a female cadet. He was in her room, but claims it was consensual.

The Duke lacrosse players, however, claim there was no contact with the AV. There was no DNA found of the players, but there was for the AV's boyfriend. So, there isn't proof that any of the Duke players had sex with the AV, or of rape.

Last weekend, a former NYC detective was on Kimberley Guilfoyle's Lineup show. He said that if he sent this case to the DA, it would be thrown out. He even said that Kimberley, herself, wouldn't file it in her days as a prosecutor. She did not dispute him.
 
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