Netflix to stream new documentary on Steven Avery - #4

[haynat21]

Long time lurker here and try to keep up with the fascinating updates from everyone but I wondered if anyone can tell me if I am right in thinking Teresa lived right next to the zipperers? ? Thanks

 

[missy1974]

Long time lurker here and try to keep up with the fascinating updates from everyone but I wondered if anyone can tell me if I am right in thinking Teresa lived right next to the zipperers? ? Thanks

:wagon:


No, I don't think she did..... I will look for a map, or maybe someone else has one handy, but no, she didn't.

 

[haynat21]

Thanks ☺ I'm in UK so no idea about any areas in that area, I had seen a search on here or reddit that said her parents had lived on county road b in Hilbert and I think I'm right in saying the zipperers were county road b in Saint John's so when I put this in Google maps it said 5 mins walk away, sorry totally on the wrong path (literally &#128513

 

[Jaiddie]

Oooooo Pick me too! LOL.
I also believe he is guilty. I followed this case from day one TH “missing person” breaking news.
HOWEVER, I did come away from the documentary questioning the investigation. I was also majorly swayed by fancy press conference and had little reason to doubt Brandon’s guilt or confession at that time. I now believe he could be innocent, guilty or somewhere in between. I’m FIRM that he deserves a new FAIR trial immediately—if that’s even possible at this point. Avery, I’d be willing to watch him get one (mostly to shut ppl up), but I’m still firmly convinced the same outcome would likely occur. UNLESS, KZ finds out otherwise and digs out beautiful new factual evidence- as she is so famous for. Then I would ACCEPT it without reservation. EAT CROW STAT!! Not everyone that thinks that he is guilty is too stubborn or too invested in their beliefs.
LE & TRIALS: I also walked away convinced of:
A. Blatant lies on the stand pre-trial hearings and trial by LE.
B. Potential for a few pieces of evidence that COULD have been conveniently dropped in choice locations to solidify a conviction.
C. Seemingly non-existent HARD look at other potential suspects.
D. Morally corrupt interview/badgering of Brandon who they CLEARLY knew they could break. Never should have been done w/out parent or attorney. I might even believe the allegation that mom claims to have told them “NOT without me”
E. Etc…. the remaining common answers ie: MCSD personnel should never have been on scene, un-supervised, un-logged, Officers deposed in civil case shouldn’t have even been allowed to assist in an administrative or consultation role, PERIOD.
F. Our criminal justice system is more flawed than I ever could have imagined.

I’m also repulsed by the extremes ppl will go to whilst justifying or arguing their opinions. Guilty or innocent. Things are picked apart to a ridiculous degree, conspiracy theories taken TOO far, evidence exaggerated, and ppl that are far from “experts” on certain areas making broad, ridiculous statements to support their case. Essentially allowing others that just pop in to peek at this site to walk away thinking some things are FACT. I work in LE, so I’ll admit I’m sensitive to scrutiny and allegations, but I won’t dismiss the idea of corruption based solely on that. I’ll defend or attempt to clarify as necessary--The most common example of what I spoke of above are the steadfast beliefs, accusations, adamant statements that Colburn HAD to be looking at the car when calling in the plates. “There’s NO REASON HE WOULD EVER BE DOING THAT IF HE WASN’T RIGHT AT THE CAR!!” Simply not true. He could be a creep, but it’s negligent to be so adamant when it’s not your particular area of expertise. I prefer to let the blood draw experts speak on the needle, the off-duty attorneys on here speak to the law, the ppl with medical experience decipher the difficult autopsy, medical stuff, etc.

Personally, I will let the evidence lead me, not my pride or stubbornness or blanket statements made by other non-experts. I’m VERY open to looking at both sides. I believe the evidence DID lead to Avery in the trial, but I also believe that ppl over-analyze his actions un-necessary and pick apart his statements or use somewhat irrelevant details to point to his guilt. Ex: him stating he touched the car. Or maybe he touched the car. Not sure where he touched the car, etc. Saying maybe the door, or top of the door? He wasn’t SURE. He was stating it was a possibility. He was confused. Innocent or guilty some facts are irrelevant to you at the time because you don’t know they could BECOME relevant. We all have memory lapses and get confused. I think he’s guilty and I’m equally annoyed by my counterparts and their Nancy Grace mentality.

I also don’t expect or NEED to know exactly HOW things went down in what order. Bedroom, garage, Brandon’s 2nd, 3rd, 18th version? Who cares? You can’t throw away the baby with the bathwater just because we can’t put it ALL together. Maybe there’s no blood because she was killed in the grass and trace evidence washed away in the rain. The only person that knows exactly how it was done step by step is the guilty person--- and HE AINT TALKING.

I don’t mean to sound biotchy, I LOVE THIS WEBSITE and value everyone’s input. HOLY COW I rely on ya’ll to help my mind pick through SO many trials. I’ll admit to being blinded by pre-conceived thoughts or naïve on SO MUCH—but I thoroughly enjoy that THIS is where I can come to have ppl break it all down for me!!! I brag on this tribe like you’re my family 

But I’d be lying if I didn’t admit that I get slightly annoyed by ppl blazing in on social media, FB, Blogs, commenting on news articles etc-- after watching a documentary on TV and immediately being the authority on everything!! We all have a responsibility to dig, research, read, and be well versed when being adamant in our stance.

The documentary left a TON out. PERIOD!

Thank you for your extensive and well-thought out response. I agree that the documentary left alot out but they kind of had to or it would have had to have been much more than 10 episodes. It also left out just as much of the defense side of things as it did the "damning evidence" that all the news articles are screaming about. For instance, the documentary barely touched on the one area of that investigation that actually hurts my heart and soul for the victim, and that is the bones. I am sure many here are probably tired of me going on about this subject, but it does weigh on my heart, as I said, because those were not just bones. That had been an actual person at one time. To me, LE showed almost as much disregard and disrespect for her life as the murderer did.

You said, you are in LE, so I would like to get your opinion on the fact that they would not let anyone on site to examine and recover the bones properly. The fact that they just shoveled the bones into buckets to transport them to the Crime Lab for sifting, wouldn't that just damage the bones further before examination? And then they just boxed them up, and delivered them to the medical examiner's office. That cannot be proper procedure, is it?

I would like to apologize for my fixation on this particular subject, but apart from Brendan's mistreatment by LE, this is the one area of this case that haunts me still. I also find it fishy that her death certificate was dated Dec. 5, but the DNA results did not come back until Jan 19. How could they make her death certificate when they did not yet have the evidence that those bones were actually hers?

 

[Jaiddie]

Yikes people my first post on this thread, just finished the Netflix Doc. Loved it. Usually stick to Oz murders! As USA laws are so complex but can't help commenting. Apologies in advance!

Brendan Dassey - no words for the injustice. How can a judicial system condone this kind of treatment? Video evidence of his coercion and we are still in denial. How?
Steven Avery - sure not the most savoury character but seriously does he have the smarts to cover himself so well ?- sure there was the key and stories about his prior weirdness but sheesh you would have to be an IQ200 criminologist to prepare a crime scene and get away with this crime - not sure he could cover his bases so well. Why do you think he was arrested for killing the family cat? This guy has no sophistication - this was a complex and sophisticated crime!

:greetings::wagon:

 

[angelainwi]

Hopefully, this is not related. 9th Street is by courthouse, I believe. I believe the other night, the bomb threat they said they had to close down 8th and 9th streets

http://www.nbc26.com/news/police-investigating-homicide-in-manitowoc

 

[TheDuchess]

Hopefully, this is not related. 9th Street is by courthouse, I believe. I believe the other night, the bomb threat they said they had to close down 8th and 9th streets

http://www.nbc26.com/news/police-investigating-homicide-in-manitowoc

Last line in the article: "Police say there is no connection to the Steven Avery case."

 

[pittie_mcclure]

"verdict that ppl don't like"---- I believe he is guilty, soooooooooooooooooooooooo ZERO personal relevance with my original comment if that’s what you meant?
I’m NOT assuming OR alleging--merely pondering. It’s got to be so taxing to serve.
I personally find indifference, anxiety or exhaustion easier to believe than 3/4 of the jurors changing their votes to guilty and sending someone away for LIFE for fear the COPS would kill them?? Um, no.
I’m also not talking about "a few hours" of deliberating. I have no clue how long they deliberated. I'm talking about an exhausting, lengthy trial. One that pulls them away from their families, jobs, puts them in the media’s eye, under constant high pressure scrutiny and concludes with dissension and major drama amongst them. If the bulk of the jurors thought he was innocent initially and then changed to guilty, I PREFER TO THINK that they were shown/proven otherwise OR got frustrated rather than believe that they feared local police agencies would start picking them off from the roof?
Some ppl on here are alleging that some jurors were tainted, untrustworthy, etc. simply because they are stealth family members or spouses of LE etc.---- Me wondering about indifference or exhaustion seems like a way less offensive statement, no?

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
I'd personally acquit someone in a hot friggin minute if the evidence wasn't there OR reasonable doubt was ie: OJ was guilty as sin IMO, but I would have HAD to acquit him.

When I was 19 I was on a jury for a few days to decide whether or not somebody was competent to stand trial. I was young and I had a different opinion that most people on the jury. They were all older than me, had full-time jobs and wanted nothing more than to get home. They let me know this in multiple ways and not wanting to upset anybody, I voted with them to they could leave. Not my proudest moment and at the time I didn't think of it as dishonest or anything, I am just a pleaser. Now that I'm older I'm sure it would be different but as we all know jurors are human and imperfect. I think we ultimately made the right decision with our vote but I was persuaded not by morality but by peer pressure and guilt. I can't imagine if I felt threatened in any other way.. Just my two cents. I know it's probably NOT the average scenario but it happens. I think you had a fair point!

 

[Deeptoad]

When I was 19 I was on a jury for a few days to decide whether or not somebody was competent to stand trial. I was young and I had a different opinion that most people on the jury. They were all older than me, had full-time jobs and wanted nothing more than to get home. They let me know this in multiple ways and not wanting to upset anybody, I voted with them to they could leave. Not my proudest moment and at the time I didn't think of it as dishonest or anything, I am just a pleaser. Now that I'm older I'm sure it would be different but as we all know jurors are human and imperfect. I think we ultimately made the right decision with our vote but I was persuaded not by morality but by peer pressure and guilt. I can't imagine if I felt threatened in any other way.. Just my two cents. I know it's probably NOT the average scenario but it happens. I think you had a fair point!

That's one of the biggest problems with this system of justice. Most people try to avoid jury duty altogether, or get out as quickly as possible. It can be taxing on your work like and personal life, but it's such an important thing to do, if you're called upon.

It can mean the difference between justice and the miscarriage thereof.

 

[Sinsaint]

Don't be discouraged from posting or telling us your thoughts. Oddly.... it reminds me of some of the stories I have read about people being "afraid" so they have not spoken about the case and LE (locals, etc.)

As I have said before.... I came here thinking I was not sure but he was probably guilty, but I did think that from what I knew at the time, there was some reasonable doubt. We have only had the transcript for a few weeks.... since then I have read at least half, if not more... actually would probably be more, and the only testimony of the defense I have read is Dr. Fairgrieve. So after reading the majority of the States case.... I have more reasonable doubt then I had before the transcripts came out. I really did think that the transcripts would make it clear that he was guilty (even if there was a hint of reasonable doubt). This has not been the case for me.... I have more questions.... and now I don't think the investigation was handled poorly, I know it was. There is no reasonable explanation for the way her remains were handled and the lack of it being properly documented and handled ... I'm with Jaiddie on this one... and will continue to :deadhorse: because it was IMO one of the most important pieces of evidence and could have told us all a lot more if it had been done properly... this I have no doubts about.

I would be interested in anyone that came in thinking he was probably guilty and after researching and reading the transcripts... what do you think now? Have you been swayed on over to the 'I don't know' or the 'he might be not guilty'?

I came here after viewing MaM and doing some research. I firmly believed Brendan was innocent after viewing MaM. After reading all of the "confessions" my belief in his innocence was solidified. Since I don't believe a single thing Brendan said, it's difficult for me to accept the evidence against Avery that Brendan's confession supposedly proves.

My issue is I could have believed Avery murdered her but not based on any of the evidence used to convict him. It's a hot mess of things that simply don't add up involving a bunch of people with a reason not to be involved with the investigation. Sadly, the situation can't be fixed now. If Avery is innocent he's lost years of his life again. If he's innocent Teresa and her family will never get justice because the investigation is too tainted to find the true murderer. If Avery is guilty but gets exonerated or later acquitted because possibly tainted evidence was used to solidify his conviction, everyone loses.

 

[Jaiddie]

Don't be discouraged from posting or telling us your thoughts. Oddly.... it reminds me of some of the stories I have read about people being "afraid" so they have not spoken about the case and LE (locals, etc.)

As I have said before.... I came here thinking I was not sure but he was probably guilty, but I did think that from what I knew at the time, there was some reasonable doubt. We have only had the transcript for a few weeks.... since then I have read at least half, if not more... actually would probably be more, and the only testimony of the defense I have read is Dr. Fairgrieve. So after reading the majority of the States case.... I have more reasonable doubt then I had before the transcripts came out. I really did think that the transcripts would make it clear that he was guilty (even if there was a hint of reasonable doubt). This has not been the case for me.... I have more questions.... and now I don't think the investigation was handled poorly, I know it was. There is no reasonable explanation for the way her remains were handled and the lack of it being properly documented and handled ... I'm with Jaiddie on this one... and will continue to :deadhorse: because it was IMO one of the most important pieces of evidence and could have told us all a lot more if it had been done properly... this I have no doubts about.

I would be interested in anyone that came in thinking he was probably guilty and after researching and reading the transcripts... what do you think now? Have you been swayed on over to the 'I don't know' or the 'he might be not guilty'?

Thank you for that! :blowkiss: The part I cannot believe is that no media site has reported on that. Meanwhile there are countless articles about all the "damning evidence that was left out, so where is the articles about how poorly this girl's cremains were treated? They are saying that Teresa has been forgotten, but LE and officials had forgotten about her from the very beginning of this investigation. Her family was left with the picture that Kratz painted in that press conference of her torture, rape, stabbed, slit throat, and absolutely NO evidence to prove that ANY of that happened. LE knew from the beginning what their aim was and they ultimately got it with no regard to what actually happened to that poor girl.

 

[pittie_mcclure]

Thank you for that! :blowkiss: The part I cannot believe is that no media site has reported on that. Meanwhile there are countless articles about all the "damning evidence that was left out, so where is the articles about how poorly this girl's cremains were treated? They are saying that Teresa has been forgotten, but LE and officials had forgotten about her from the very beginning of this investigation. Her family was left with the picture that Kratz painted in that press conference of her torture, rape, stabbed, slit throat, and absolutely NO evidence to prove that ANY of that happened. LE knew from the beginning what their aim was and they ultimately got it with no regard to what actually happened to that poor girl.

No I totally agree too. It was sick the way Kratz laid out a brutal scene that never even happened (at least based on evidence) The fact that the coroner was refused access to the scene left my jaw dropped. The way Teresa's remains were treated and kept blocked off from those trained to deal with them is at the top of my list with this one. Right under Brenden's interrogations, confessions & conviction, of course.

 

[pittie_mcclure]

I came here after viewing MaM and doing some research. I firmly believed Brendan was innocent after viewing MaM. After reading all of the "confessions" my belief in his innocence was solidified. Since I don't believe a single thing Brendan said, it's difficult for me to accept the evidence against Avery that Brendan's confession supposedly proves.

My issue is I could have believed Avery murdered her but not based on any of the evidence used to convict him. It's a hot mess of things that simply don't add up involving a bunch of people with a reason not to be involved with the investigation. Sadly, the situation can't be fixed now. If Avery is innocent he's lost years of his life again. If he's innocent Teresa and her family will never get justice because the investigation is too tainted to find the true murderer. If Avery is guilty but gets exonerated or later acquitted because possibly tainted evidence was used to solidify his conviction, everyone loses.

Yes you said it very well! Perfectly, in fact.

I'm not convinced of anything other than Brendan was coerced and LE handled this investigation in a horrible (malicious IMO) manner.

 

[missy1974]

the juror that left on the first day of deliberations just posted on the family fb support page...

Hello you all . Still with you in heart and spirit . Just being quiet. Someday I shall speak again. Sorry. Praying things get rolling soon.

and then commented on his post...

I have my orders from Kathleen wink emoticon

I could screenshot... but I hate to put his name out there, not that it's a secret, I'm just not doing it LOL

 

[LifeCitizen]

No I totally agree too. It was sick the way Kratz laid out a brutal scene that never even happened (at least based on evidence) The fact that the coroner was refused access to the scene left my jaw dropped. The way Teresa's remains were treated and kept blocked off from those trained to deal with them is at the top of my list with this one. Right under Brenden's interrogations, confessions & conviction, of course.

I felt like slapping his little fat face. No evidence at all that she was raped, or stabbed. Talk about embellish.

 

[Sinsaint]

Yes you said it very well! Perfectly, in fact.

I'm not convinced of anything other than Brendan was coerced and LE handled this investigation in a horrible (malicious IMO) manner.

Personally I think Brendan was nothing but the prosecution's sacrificial lamb. He was the perfect person to be an alibi witness for Avery. The prosecution couldn't have that. I do believe the initial intent was only to turn Brendan from a defense alibi witness to a prosecution murder eyewitness. Brendan was just too easy to manipulate and the stories they could get him to parrot would turn Avery from a suspected murderer to a sadistic sexual psycho grooming his young nephew to do the same.

And I believe, based on the confession from March 1st, that Fassbender, Wiegert and Kratz knew they could get him to say anything they wanted and worked together to make sure Brendan said exactly what they wanted him to say (read Wiegert's lines in the confession... On the phone with someone saying don't serve it yet). The warrant they ended up getting was based on Brendan saying she was shot in the head by Avery in the garage and Brendan saying Avery opened the hood.

But who really said it? "Come on Brendan, I'm just going to come right out and say it. Who shot her in the head?" "Come on Brendan, we know he did something else to her vehicle... Something with the engine." You know, that thing under the hood. Dassey's confession should be thrown out, any warrant granted based on that false information should be ruled as an illegal search and any fruit of that poisonous tree (bullet and DNA hood latch evidence) should be thrown out.

 

[TheDuchess]

Don't be discouraged from posting or telling us your thoughts. Oddly.... it reminds me of some of the stories I have read about people being "afraid" so they have not spoken about the case and LE (locals, etc.)

As I have said before.... I came here thinking I was not sure but he was probably guilty, but I did think that from what I knew at the time, there was some reasonable doubt. We have only had the transcript for a few weeks.... since then I have read at least half, if not more... actually would probably be more, and the only testimony of the defense I have read is Dr. Fairgrieve. So after reading the majority of the States case.... I have more reasonable doubt then I had before the transcripts came out. I really did think that the transcripts would make it clear that he was guilty (even if there was a hint of reasonable doubt). This has not been the case for me.... I have more questions.... and now I don't think the investigation was handled poorly, I know it was. There is no reasonable explanation for the way her remains were handled and the lack of it being properly documented and handled ... I'm with Jaiddie on this one... and will continue to :deadhorse: because it was IMO one of the most important pieces of evidence and could have told us all a lot more if it had been done properly... this I have no doubts about.

I would be interested in anyone that came in thinking he was probably guilty and after researching and reading the transcripts... what do you think now? Have you been swayed on over to the 'I don't know' or the 'he might be not guilty'?

Truer words never spoken. Think about it. That is her BODY!!! Would they simply take anyone else's body, scoop it up with shovels, throw it in a cardboard box and just drop it off at the medical examiners??? Disgraceful and I can't believe the Halbach family could be happy with this, but I am sure they wouldn't rock the boat.

 

[Sinsaint]

I felt like slapping his little fat face. No evidence at all that she was raped, or stabbed. Talk about embellish.

Well, that's just how it is. Wait for the posters who show up claiming Avery raped a girl in 2004. If you go by the same "standard of evidence" they use Kratz is a rapist as well. But no one is really willing to hold him to the same standard.

 

[TheDuchess]

Thank you for that! :blowkiss: The part I cannot believe is that no media site has reported on that. Meanwhile there are countless articles about all the "damning evidence that was left out, so where is the articles about how poorly this girl's cremains were treated? They are saying that Teresa has been forgotten, but LE and officials had forgotten about her from the very beginning of this investigation. Her family was left with the picture that Kratz painted in that press conference of her torture, rape, stabbed, slit throat, and absolutely NO evidence to prove that ANY of that happened. LE knew from the beginning what their aim was and they ultimately got it with no regard to what actually happened to that poor girl.

Not that it would make it a whole lot better, but it would certainly be more comforting to know that she could have been simply shot in the back of the head with no warning and never suffered, was frightened or felt any pain. But then to needlessly add in the additional horrors that they managed to pry out during that "confession" and then deliver a horrifying soliloquy for the entire world (except for children under the age of 15 of course) for only three benefits - to destroy Steve Avery and Brandon Dassey, to exact revenge for MCPD, and to further their own careers. Oh...well, I think there is likely a fourth benefit only to KK, who obviously enjoyed his telling of the tale just a little too much, if you know what I mean.

And then they have the nerve to tell us that this beautiful young woman has been forgotten?? Tell that to the 2 women who were raped by the actual rapist in the first case, and God forbid anyone else who may have been murdered by a psycho killer that may very well be on the loose. They NEVER cared about Teresa Halbach. No one who cares would shovel up her remains, put them in a cardboard box and treat them the way they did.

 

[Justiceseeker35]

I hated that gleam in his eye, his children need to leave histrionics. His fictional narrative reminded me all too much of a James Patterson copy cat story. Oh wait hmm.. BD said as much.