Netflix to stream new documentary on Steven Avery - #4

[shadowraiths]

one of the reporters.... nicknamed "the Silver Fox" from the documentary was actually inspired to go to law school after this trial!
http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news...pired-reporter-to-go-into-law-20160126?page=3

For those interested in rules of evidence and expert witness testimony (e.g., the EDTA testing), as discussed by Aaron Keller, here is an article I wrote some years ago that provides an historical overview of that very thing. While the article's primary focus is deception detection, the key involves various precedent setting cases that changed expert testimony rules of evidence requirements.

That said, it should be noted that Wisconsin only recently adopted the Daubert standard (2011). Had Daubert been in place at the time of SA's trial, the FBI EDTA testimony should have arguably been denied. Even so, Wisconsin was a Frye state at that time. So, imho, it should have been excluded under Frye, anyway. It appears however the Wisconsin courts consistently gave extremely wide latitude with regard to expert testimony rules of evidence.

 

[Safeguard]

For those interested in rules of evidence and expert witness testimony (e.g., the EDTA testing), as discussed by Aaron Keller, here is an article I wrote some years ago that provides an historical overview of that very thing. While the article's primary focus is deception detection, the key involves various precedent setting cases that changed expert testimony rules of evidence requirements.

That said, it should be noted that Wisconsin only recently adopted the Daubert standard (2011). Had Daubert been in place at the time of SA's trial, the FBI EDTA testimony should have arguably been denied. Even so, Wisconsin was a Frye state at that time. So, imho, it should have been excluded under Frye, anyway. It appears however the Wisconsin courts consistently gave extremely wide latitude with regard to expert testimony rules of evidence.

Lots of good stuff here! Thanks for the link.
( really enjoyed "The Silent Victims" ).

 

[ElleElle]

For those interested in rules of evidence and expert witness testimony (e.g., the EDTA testing), as discussed by Aaron Keller, here is an article I wrote some years ago that provides an historical overview of that very thing. While the article's primary focus is deception detection, the key involves various precedent setting cases that changed expert testimony rules of evidence requirements.

That said, it should be noted that Wisconsin only recently adopted the Daubert standard (2011). Had Daubert been in place at the time of SA's trial, the FBI EDTA testimony should have arguably been denied. Even so, Wisconsin was a Frye state at that time. So, imho, it should have been excluded under Frye, anyway. It appears however the Wisconsin courts consistently gave extremely wide latitude with regard to expert testimony rules of evidence.

BBM ~ I call it deception detection.

 

[ElleElle]

Go D Strang!

[video=youtube;-Wlh7DiXgik]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Wlh7DiXgik[/video]

 

[concernedmother]

This case has become so messed up that if SA didn't kill TH how will they ever prove who did?

 

[Nocturnal 911]

My thoughts exactly! I didn't realize that it was "fact" that the ex boyfriend FOR SURE wrote down the name "Steven Avery" on the phone records for LE. Not saying that it isn't true, I just don't have time to follow the details on this case as much as I'd love to. I will also say this, I have two jobs in LE-- please please please do not assume that everything you see in writing, links, reports, depositions, news clips, hearsay, court reports etc. is ALL that has transpired. SO MUCH can be and is often left out of incident reports, statements, depositions etc. because it is simply NOT POSSIBLE to recall all of the mental math that goes on or know what specific "lightbulbs" are relevant during report writing when you are A. In the middle of a high-profile HOT case B. Multi-tasking 100mph and not particularly worried about paperwork when someone's for example missing or in danger C. working from crib notes weeks, months later when you finally sit down to make an official record. The examples go on, but I guess what I'm saying is that I see ppl picking minute things apart on here ie: how the EX knew sister's place (phone number on records) was in fact Avery's and supposedly directed LE there in an attempt to get them off his trail and I'm cringing. There are SO MANY logical reasons for that- that can be explained by things that went on behind the scenes that AREN'T recorded it's insane! Especially when you consider that the Averys were reportedly a large (snip) family that all congregated in the general area of AVERY Rd. or were known to be affiliated with AVERY Auto Salvage. Perhaps the officer that initally responded enroute to Steve Avery's DIDN'T know the specific/official familial connection between his name and the sister's until he was enroute, but get a couple of competent cops in the same room with elephant memories and sister's name comes up and bells will be dinging like crazy ESPECIALLY with the AVERY RD address associated. The mental math that goes on between cops in such scenerios is unreal. It's almost comical!! "Tom Smith? I know that name, that's Dick Smith nephew with the greasy glasses" "Yeah!! standby?? isn't that the guy that we pulled over last March for a blown taillight that smelled like TACOS??" This case is awesomely fun to pick apart, but don't give yourselves brain hemorrhages over teensy details

It could be as simple as the ex BF was insane jealous, deleted nasty VMs that might make him look suspicious in case, knew her pin# for VM because he's been looking over her shoulder for the last 2 months and he and her friends did some digging, saw sister's name from her phone records, mapped her address and BOOM that's where that Steven Avery guy lives, right?? All over the news??.... write that sh**t down, bro!!

The same goes for cops, you get to know your jurisdiction, local (snip) type families and all their drama and local scoops and community rumors, etc and you CANNOT possibly record it all. The last missing person case I worked was a suspected suicide. The last thing you're worried about when you have someone potentially bleeding or injured somewhere is documenting!! It is high energy chaos when you think there is ANY chance of saving them in time. Even as my job as a dispatcher, someone PAID to document, follow up, record times, add data etc. Sometimes things are happening at such a fast pace that you have to choose between DOING the task asked of you and accurately documenting it IN FULL at that moment.

*** AND if some fancy defense attrny doesn't think to ask the question "well how did you make the Avery connection? and why did you write that name down for the officer" NOBODY will know HIS answer

or the initial responding officer's answer for that matter...........

Especially when he name of the road is Avery

 

[Nocturnal 911]

I've gotta tell ya', I've followed this case since DAY 1 when she was reported missing. It will take a miracle to convince me that he's not guilty. HOWEVER, my feelings about that nephew have changed somewhat as less was known in the day about his "confession". Regardless, I will agree the case is a total HOT MESS and I am actually relieved that Kathleen Zellner took his case. If ANYONE CAN GET TO THE BOTTOM of crap, she will. She's got the tenacity, experience, time, support and is getting PAID to do so! Willing to sit back and relax and let her do her magic.

 

[Nocturnal 911]

Right??!! I always watch the forensic end of scene processing and think how the HELL do these guys know what to collect and NOT collect? What if that dirty fork in the sink or specific bottle of shampoo seen in the shower turns out to be soooooooooooooo relevant later? Some websleuth junkie is going to have your A$$ for not photographing and bagging THAT dryer sheet in 5 years buddy!! I could NEVER do that job, way too paranoid and anal. I'd be shrink wrapping the entire house

It's sad (in a way) that investigating a crime needs to be documented so incredibly minutely at every single point, including photos taken every minute, video, witnesses, for every single activity, person, and piece of evidence because otherwise people will believe some kind of conspiracy happened. It's almost like people need proof there was a crime committed and if they don't see if for themselves, then it really didn't happen. This goes beyond burden of proof and into something else entirely. I suppose live streaming from hundreds of vid cameras on every person who comes in contact with a potential crime scene will be next. Hundreds of people will be needed to monitor -- one for each person.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Hi, and Welcome to your new home! :wagon:
Your not going to get a lot of sleep from now on! :websleuther: LOL!

I also found RH's whole demeanor...odd...
I haven't felt confident enough to point at any one person, as a potential suspect, but RH does seem to behave, very strangely to me. Could be he's just a weird person, but he set off my alarm bells.

What I get hung up on, is the fact that she was shot. Does RH even own a gun, have access to one? Somehow I can't picture him shooting anyone... I would like to know how he got those nasty wounds on his hand though, and I have considered, he could have done it, but not by himself. ( maybe TH was struggling, RH did the "holding", but someone else did the shooting?

Was trying to catch up on some sleep...LOL...so I'm far behind now in the thread...LOL...Just catching up now!!!

The marks on RH's hands do not bother me---they live in an agricultural area--so it is very possible he was temporary working as a farm hand, but certainly would like to know more. I'm guessing some type of day labor--like the ones that you just work a day here or there. To me--if I'm going to school for RN and I needed a little cash and was unemployed--I might work a day or two as a farm hand. Do we have testimony where is was that day before she went missing? I thought I recalled from the transcripts that he said he passed by Scott working at a construction site. No sure though.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

IF this is a well behaved dog then no, it doesn't bark. ( Referring to if it's the person sneaking arounds dog )

IF you mean the Avery ( SA ) dog, I have 2 very large, very protective dogs.

There have been times while they have been in a dreamlike state, NOTHING ( things that should have ) woke them/got them barking.

I look over to them only to think " REALLY guys, you run to the door and bark at every car door, wind gust, etc. and the PIZZA guy just came waltzing across the deck, KNOCKED, and you SNORE right through it?! "
Canines, ha!

LOL..before my dog got old, she would bark at a leaf blowing--but now that she is older--I see she is less inclined to bark--don't know if her advanced aging includes hearing loss or what...from what I saw--didn't seem that dog was older, but I'm no expert either.

 

[Sustained]

Couldn't agree more! Having followed since day one, I was fed the press conference drama re: the nephew and his "confession" all without ANY of the gross facts that came out in the documentary. It's not an easy pill to swallow realizing that years later. Ppl have to have an open mind in the interest or TRUTH, not BEING RIGHT!
Well said! I might add, nothing will get worked out or resolved if not for intelligent ppl on this site and others calmly discussing stuff in a non-offensive manner. The case is CLOSED as far as local LE and appellate courts are concerned. So glad that Kathleen Zellner is on this now. As of today I totally think Avery is guilty as sh**t, but if anyone can tear this case apart years later and dig up more info SHE CAN. Sitting back and enjoying the show!

IMO, if Zellner's team goes through through the evidence with a fine-tooth comb and it points without a doubt at SA, she will pull out of the case rather than try and get SA off on a legal technicality. I suspect though that her team has already found exculpatory evidence and is building a complete case for either retrial or dismissal of all charges.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

You can be outraged all you want. that case was tried and he did his time. This is about who murdered TH and if it was possible that LE setup and framed Avery for it after the fact. I am not sure who killed TH. Not even sure if the police really planted the evidence. However I do know that the presence of Man. Co. Sheriffs Dept. they created a very big APPEARANCE that evidence could have been planted. Something they told the public they wanted to avoid. That says right there that if anyone is proven to be liars in this case it was the Sheriff's Dept. Any and all evidence that pertained to this case that was collected even in the presence of a Sheriff or member of that LE community should be thrown out and the case should be retried with the evidence that was collected by the Calumet Co. alone. And what was that exactly, The faulty phone bill given to officers by her concerned friends and family. SAD! This case is just sad. Teresa deserved a thorough, non biased investigation of what happened to her. However the ego of the Manitowoc Sheriff Department did not allow that for this young woman who lost her life. If there is anyone to blame in the outcome now of the Netflix series being released, it is the LE agencies that handle this case, and did not follow ANY protocol so they could convict the one and only man they wanted to be guilty. Poor Brendan was supposed to be USED as a witness and all his coerced confessions pushed him further into the fire pit.

Speaking of BD.. I was listening to that first interview that was recorded back in 11/2005. here is example of how he will just say yes to anything they ask him. About 33mins and 30 seconds in the conversation starts with someone opening the car door and hearing the dinging....

Det 1. Who's Blaine?
Det 2. Blaines the brother
BD brother
Det1. Blaine or bryan
BD blain
Det1 Which one is he
Det2. The brother he walked... ?in on?
BD Yeah
Det 1. You got Bobby
BD brian and blaine
Det 1. Bryan Blaine and you so there is FIVE BROTHERS all together?
BD YEAH

There is only 3 brothers and from what I understand a step brother. that's still only 4 brothers, but they dont even mention that one. So Himself, Bryan, Bobby and Blaine still only makes 4. Even the cops up there can't count.

When Pam Sturm was talking to Earl Avery, he mentions that he just lost a nephew, so I wonder if there was really 5?

 

[Safeguard]

I'm guessing some type of day labor--like the ones that you just work a day here or there.

Here in Boston we have, "Labor Ready". ( or as its commonly referred to on the street; "Rent A Bum").

 

[Safeguard]

I think her work knew who she was meeting that day. It would be easy to get that info imo, SA did ask for her" send the girl that was out here last time", ( paraphrasing ).

 

[missy1974]

When Pam Sturm was talking to Earl Avery, he mentions that he just lost a nephew, so I wonder if there was really 5?

Charles lost a son I believe in a car accident IIRC

 

[Amber29]

The call ~ I don't believe that this call was a surprise at the trial. I would have expected the Prosecution to object, a sidebar, something without the jury to authenticate the call, something.... there was not, which leads me to believe they and Colburn knew it was coming, maybe didn't know the questions he would be asked. He didn't have a good, logical answer to why he made that call. IMO it's shady when you look at the totality of the case.

As for SA being identified early on in those phone records. It's shady. Even if they recognized the address.... SA was not the only one living there. If it had been labelled as Avery Salvage, or someone on Avery rd., but to specifically say SA? It could have been Charles... Barb... Steven... Allen ..... Delores, who else lived there? Dassey boys. So either someone was 100% absolutely aware that it was SA she was meeting that day (Autotrader, ex, friend), or he was being targeted. IMO I would imagine the report was done using the printout that the "friends" handed to the officers that responded to TH's residence, it had phone numbers, names, etc, and very shortly afterwards, Colburn was called and asked to go talk to SA, which he did. It's not like it was hours or days that LE had time to figure it out, they went from the information on her cell records that was handed to them.

RH ~ he was an unemployed, just finished school, was doing nothing else. He didn't give an alibi because he was never asked. I doubt he would be able to remember anyway.... he couldn't even remember what time of day he last seen his friend.

SA being named on the phone records isn't surprising to me. She had made multiple trips out there to photograph cars. Lots for SA, she had complained to the secretary about SA. Perhaps she had mentioned SA to her friend as well. So maybe that's why they automatically thought of SA when seeing the Avery address. Not to mention he is probably remembered the most of all Averys.

 

[missy1974]

I think her work knew who she was meeting that day. It would be easy to get that info imo, SA dI'd ask for her" send the girl that was out here last time", ( paraphrasing ).

I am leaning this way too.... which means.... they lied. And it didn't fit into the "theory" if they knew, right?

ORRRRR someone who helped with those phone records knew, but how? It sounds like she had a fax machine at home.... maybe there was a printout of the fax sent to her from Auto Trader...... oh wait.... that said B.Janda too.

 

[missy1974]

Bringing these over here....
Kathleen Zellner Retweeted
Carla Chase ‏@averydassey 12h12 hours ago
@ZellnerLaw has 14 people on case working non-stop. Accomplished more in 2 wks than any1 in 8yrs. Soon every1 will see @FreeStevenAvery

(Carla is SA's niece, BD's cousin)

Kathleen Zellner ‏@ZellnerLaw 3h3 hours ago
TV lawyers say no way to win b/c they've never won release: we have 17x .How? Belief in client, expertise & public help. #MakingAMurderer

Kathleen Zellner ‏@ZellnerLaw 1h1 hour ago
New evidence to vacate conviction of innocent man always exists but legal team must recognize what will succeed or fail #MakingAMurderer

 

[GigiG]

Charles lost a son I believe in a car accident IIRC

Yes, but that was in 1999, so it wasn't a recent loss. (Tho I know it can feel like it.)

 

[MysticJynx]

When Pam Sturm was talking to Earl Avery, he mentions that he just lost a nephew, so I wonder if there was really 5?

Chuck did lose a son, back in 99. Seems it was some accident involving his son and his sons friend. But this is Chucks son. This would have been an Avery not a Dassey.. hope this is ok to post

COREY ALLEN AVERY

Corey A. Avery, 16, 12928 Avery Road, town of Gibson, died Feb. 5, as a result
of an automobile accident.
Funeral services were Feb. 10 at Emmanuel United Methodist Church, Two Rivers,
with the Rev. Roberta Thomson officiating. Burial was in the Mishicot Public
Cemetery.
Corey was born April 30, 1982 in Manitowoc, son of Charles and Donna (Schroeder)
Avery. He was a junior student at Mishicot High School. Corey worked at Fox
Hills Resort in the kitchen during the winter and in the summer worked in
maintenance on the golf course. He enjoyed listening to music, especially country
western.
Survivors include his parents, Charles and Donna Avery, town of Gibson; one
brother, Christopher Avery at home; three sisters, Melissa Avery at home, Carla
Avery of Kewaunee and Shannon Thalheim of Two Rivers, his maternal grandmother,
Lucille Schroeder of Escanaba, Mich.; his paternal grandparents, Allan and
Delores Avery, town of (blank).
A memorial has been established in his name.
Manitowoc Lakeshore Chronicle, February 14, 1999

http://www.2manitowoc.com/63obit.html