New member, and a theory

[rashomon]

This is a very curious logic here, so rather than killing John she kills JonBenet, or rather than assaulting John she sexually assaults JonBenet, if you love your child, why should you wish her dead and sexually violated, why not the abuser?

It does happen that mothers direct their anger at their daughter instead of the husband in such a situation. And a blow to the head is not sexual assault. I don't think Patsy wanted to kill JonBenet, but on realizing that she had most likely fatally injured the child, panic set in. She did not want to be exposed as the mother who had caught her husband molesting her daughter and then killed her chid in a rage, and John did not want to be exposed as JBs sexual abuser. They both had something to hide. This theory would make sense to me.

There are two possible motives for the staging , as you suggest 1. to obscure any prior molestation, or 2. to fake an intruder assault? Both indicate forward planning and deliberation.

They are no 'either - or' motives.
A faked intruder assault would serve the purpose of obscuring prior molestation. So they are not two separated motives. # 2 is a means to achieve # 1.

Re planning: planning can happen within a very short time span. It doesn't have to mean this was planned weeks beforehand. I think the staged scene was was something which was planned in a panic after the disastrous (and unplanned) rage attack had happened.

So it is a weak theory because it is contrary to not only common sense, but is an insult to any notion of maternal instinct e.g lets all kill our children if we discover they have been abused?

Imo it has less to do with maternal instinct than with Patsy possibly seeing in her daughter a sexual rival. I believe that Patsy dressing JonBenet up in seductive clothes was an attempt on her part to vicariously live through her daughter, she saw JB as an extension of herself, with no right to decide things on her own. The beautiful daughter was presented to beam a shining light back on the beautiful mother.
I think Patsy thought of herself as being as much a star as JonBenet. Once both she and her daughter came dressed as Marilyn Monroe in a pageant. Very telling imo, the choice of Marilyn Monroe, a classic sex symbol.
But I don't think Patsy was the type who would have pimped JonBenet to anyone, or have encouraged her husband to have sexual contact with the child.
On catching John molesting JonBenet, Patsy could have developed an intense jealous rage, as if she had caught John with another woman and reacted toward JonBenet with rage.

A more credible variant of this is that an enraged Patsy killed JonBenet because she was not indulging John in his particular version of quality time with his daughter.

But wouldn't that be an insult to any notion of maternal instinct too?

Of course it would be sadistic, but then just run through her prior injuries, asphyxiation, her whack across the head, her facial bruising, all those abrasions described as stun-gun markings, and any unknown sexual molestation, which can take many forms, so how out of context is her vaginal injury, its even possible to argue it is less severe and sadistic than her head injury, or her asphyxiation?

The head injury most likely sent JB into an instant coma, whereas the vaginal injury, inflicted to an alive and conscious child, would have been extremely painful (see Dr. McCann's report in the Bonita papers).
Also, the paintbrush was taken from the basement, and since the garrote scene quite obviously staged, it is logical to assume that the vaginal wound inflicted with the same paintbrush was part of the staged scene too.

Your own description downright sadistic likely typifies the person who killed JonBenet, for me its a no-brainer, and fits into the profile of a pedophile who is controlling, manipulative, coercive and totally self-centered!

And who exactly was this pedophile in your opinion?

 

[rashomon]

The flourescence test at the autopsy showed it was blood that had been wiped from JBR's thighs, though at first semen was suspected.
Feces would be unlikely,because an autopsy would show traces of feces in the rectum, and there was only the softt green fecal material in her intestines- none far down enough to be excreted, even through the primary flaccidity of death. Urine was released, but no evidence of feces, either on her, her panties or the long johns.

Good points, DeeDee. The absence of any trace of feces would lead away from a soiling accident being the reason of a rage attack on JonBenet.

But theoretically, Patsy could also have snapped and lost it because JonBenet refused to go to bed or provoked har anger for other reasons.

The other posssibiity is that JB's death was connected to her having been the victim of prior sexual abuse.

 

[UKGuy]

It does happen that mothers direct their anger at their daughter instead of the husband in such a situation. And a blow to the head is not sexual assault. I don't think Patsy wanted to kill JonBenet, but on realizing that she had most likely fatally injured the child, panic set in. She did not want to be exposed as the mother who had caught her husband molesting her daughter and then killed her chid in a rage, and John did not want to be exposed as JBs sexual abuser. They both had something to hide. This theory would make sense to me.


They are no 'either - or' motives.
A faked intruder assault would serve the purpose of obscuring prior molestation. So they are not two separated motives. # 2 is a means to achieve # 1.

Re planning: planning can happen within a very short time span. It doesn't have to mean this was planned weeks beforehand. I think the staged scene was was something which was planned in a panic after the disastrous (and unplanned) rage attack had happened.

Imo it has less to do with maternal instinct than with Patsy possibly seeing in her daughter a sexual rival. I believe that Patsy dressing JonBenet up in seductive clothes was an attempt on her part to vicariously live through her daughter, she saw JB as an extension of herself, with no right to decide things on her own. The beautiful daughter was presented to beam a shining light back on the beautiful mother.
I think Patsy thought of herself as being as much a star as JonBenet. Once both she and her daughter came dressed as Marilyn Monroe in a pageant. Very telling imo, the choice of Marilyn Monroe, a classic sex symbol.
But I don't think Patsy was the type who would have pimped JonBenet to anyone, or have encouraged her husband to have sexual contact with the child.
On catching John molesting JonBenet, Patsy could have developed an intense jealous rage, as if she had caught John with another woman and reacted toward JonBenet with rage.

But wouldn't that be an insult to any notion of maternal instinct too?


The head injury most likely sent JB into an instant coma, whereas the vaginal injury, inflicted to an alive and conscious child, would have been extremely painful (see Dr. McCann's report in the Bonita papers).
Also, the paintbrush was taken from the basement, and since the garrote scene quite obviously staged, it is logical to assume that the vaginal wound inflicted with the same paintbrush was part of the staged scene too.


And who exactly was this pedophile in your opinion?

rashomon,

A more credible variant of this is that an enraged Patsy killed JonBenet because she was not indulging John in his particular version of quality time with his daughter.

But wouldn't that be an insult to any notion of maternal instinct too?

Yes but it is consistent with that assumption, killing the victim because you catch the offender is not.

And who exactly was this pedophile in your opinion?

A close male Ramsey relative with regular access to JonBenet.


.

 

[Solace]

Good points, DeeDee. The absence of any trace of feces would lead away from a soiling accident being the reason of a rage attack on JonBenet.

But theoretically, Patsy could also have snapped and lost it because JonBenet refused to go to bed or provoked har anger for other reasons.

The other posssibiity is that JB's death was connected to her having been the victim of prior sexual abuse.

Rash,

I was reading Steve Thomas' book and he says Burke tells the Grand Jury his father came into his room and turned the lights on and ran out. He says his mother was saying Oh Gosh, Oh Gosh, Oh Gosh and turned the lights out and ran out.

I cannot get past this so - I think Steve Thomas is right. John had nothing to do with this crime. I think he found the note and immediately ran to Burke. I don't think there was prior sexual abuse. I think Patsy went too far this time and killed her. Thomas believes there was corporal punishment being used. I take that to mean douching and this is not something a child wants to go through. She had mentioned the bed wetting to her doctor - Thomas or Haney asked her about it and she said she did not recall. They had the records that they managed to get, per Steve Thomas. She had mentioned the bed wetting to her doctor. Douching a child of this age is absolutely horrible for the child. And it is nothing short of abuse. If Patsy is willing to do this, she has a temper and she lost it Christmas night big time.

I do not think John is going to stage going into Burke's room. I think Burke is telling the truth. I think if they are going to have Burke lie, it will be at a minimum. They are going to keep him out of it as much as possible. What bothers me about Burke is that he says JonBenet walked into the house and then he changes his story. I do not know what they said to him to make him change his story. Something was said and he changed it.

But I do not think John is involved. This is too much to get around. Burke remembers him coming into his room and RUNNING out after he turned the lights on.

Also, in Cyril Wecht's book, he has a section re one of the lawyers for the Ramseys told his girlfriend that Patsy did it. Of course it is hearsay, but I will try to find it. It is interesting.

 

[Albert18]

I cannot get past this so - I think Steve Thomas is right. John had nothing to do with this crime. I think he found the note and immediately ran to Burke. I don't think there was prior sexual abuse. I think Patsy went too far this time and killed her. Thomas believes there was corporal punishment being used.

Ohhh Solace!!!!

Bingo, Bingo, Bingo, Bingo, Bingo, Bingo, Bingo, Bingo, Bingo, Bingo.

Ten bingos for ten years.

There are really only two big questions we should have about that night.

*What actually caused the head wound. Was JonBenet hit or did she strike something. Either way it doesn't really matter but it would be nice to know.

*When was John enlightened? Again, it would be nice to know but it doesn't really matter.

On the John question, I think we should be able to say with fairly good certainty that it was some time after the ransom note. Solace, your comments put it some time after the rest of the family is awakened. Which is what Steve Thomas says and if he ever publishes, what Laurence Smith says.

Can we decipher John's behavior that morning to get a better idea when his eyeballs grew very large.

One thing I do believe, if John and Patsy had been in this together since early that morning (meaning if things went bad both Patsy and John would go to jail), John would have been a buffer and would have tried to shield Patsy starting at 6AM. Right after the police arrived was the most dangerous time for something to go wrong and according to the accounts, John basically had nothing to do with Patsy. There was no way he was scared Patsy would make a blunder and give him up. Burke wasn't a threat to John and neither was Patsy. John was not in danger at 6AM.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I have a hard time believing JR went into that morning knowing nothing, for these reasons -

1. I think he would have recognized Patsy's style of writing and speech right off in the RN

2. I don't believe he would have allowed Patsy to call 911 without mentioning the death threats or called their friends over if he thought that RN was real

3. I don't believe JR would have allowed Burke to go anywhere with anyone if he didn't already know there was no kidnapper and no danger to his son.

And I really think JR's shirt fibers in underwear I do not believe JB was wearing prior to being dressed in them during staging may prove that he was there for that part of the staging, but it could also mean Patsy grabbed his shirt and used it and he wasn't there.

 

[Solace]

I have a hard time believing JR went into that morning knowing nothing, for these reasons -

1. I think he would have recognized Patsy's style of writing and speech right off in the RN -
2. I don't believe he would have allowed Patsy to call 911 without mentioning the death threats or called their friends over if he thought that RN was real.
3. I don't believe JR would have allowed Burke to go anywhere with anyone if he didn't already know there was no kidnapper and no danger to his son.

And I really think JR's shirt fibers in underwear I do not believe JB was wearing prior to being dressed in them during staging may prove that he was there for that part of the staging, but it could also mean Patsy grabbed his shirt and used it and he wasn't there.

I know I read somewhere that John said the handwriting has similarities to Patsy's.

I really do not think he is involved. I think Patsy is involved up to her eyeballs. I think John is outraged at the sexual abuse theory and this allows him to take this case this far. The thing that bothers me about this case is how do they kept this high profile if they are guilty. The only thing I can come up with is John is not guilty. Patsy is and she is perfectly willing to let John do this. No problem at all. And I can see that.

John may know but has decided to believe otherwise. He may suspect but has decided to do otherwise.

In trying to answer your statements above, I can say that John subconsciously knew that Patsy is involved in some way and therefore does not feel worried when he lets Burke go. This is possible NP, people do this kind of thing all the time. They kind of know. It is like a distant bell.

Patsy did have a temper and the maid heard it daily coming from the bathroom. John may not have been around to hear it the way Linda did. But she certainly had one and exercised it with JonBenet.

I just don't think John had anything to do with it and when I look at the scene absent John, it makes total sense to me. Just mo.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I've considered that - that John knew subconsciously.

That's still an awful lot of risk without knowing for certain.

 

[Solace]

Ohhh Solace!!!!

Bingo, Bingo, Bingo, Bingo, Bingo, Bingo, Bingo, Bingo, Bingo, Bingo.

Ten bingos for ten years.

There are really only two big questions we should have about that night.

*What actually caused the head wound. Was JonBenet hit or did she strike something. Either way it doesn't really matter but it would be nice to know.

*When was John enlightened? Again, it would be nice to know but it doesn't really matter.

On the John question, I think we should be able to say with fairly good certainty that it was some time after the ransom note. Solace, your comments put it some time after the rest of the family is awakened. Which is what Steve Thomas says and if he ever publishes, what Laurence Smith says.

Can we decipher John's behavior that morning to get a better idea when his eyeballs grew very large.

One thing I do believe, if John and Patsy had been in this together since early that morning (meaning if things went bad both Patsy and John would go to jail), John would have been a buffer and would have tried to shield Patsy starting at 6AM. Right after the police arrived was the most dangerous time for something to go wrong and according to the accounts, John basically had nothing to do with Patsy. There was no way he was scared Patsy would make a blunder and give him up. Burke wasn't a threat to John and neither was Patsy. John was not in danger at 6AM.

Albert, I had read on Friday that Burke said his father came into the room. It stuck with me. Why would he do this. Why would he chance waking Burke if he were in the middle of a stage with Patsy? He would not do that. He would lie to the police and say I checked Burke but actually leave him alone. INSTEAD HE DOES CHECK ON HIM and wakes him. I can only conclude with this dangerous a situation that John is not involved YET!!!!

I think he is not quite sure, but of course believes outwardly that she is kidnapped and he runs to check on Burke and screams to call the police. Patsy said she asked him that twice and he says yes - yes. He is reading the note - it has to click that this looks like Patsy's writing somewhere in his brain. I do not know his thoughts at this moment. I just feel he is not involved.

Now, whether or not he found JonBenet at 11:00 as he told Steward Long is another story. I think he is protecting Patsy and has rationalized his thinking to go along. He may not even think about any other reason. I just do not feel he is involved.

Lets not forget all of the fibers are Patsys that are downstairs. The fibers from john's sweater could be transference by JonBenet herself. He was with her all day. He was playing on the floor with her and Fleet and Daphne and his fibers got on her clothes. She goes to the bathroom and transfers them. It is possible.

 

[Solace]

I've considered that - that John knew subconsciously.

That's still an awful lot of risk without knowing for certain.

It certainly is a lot of risk. I said to my son if John knows the truth, would he actually leave Burke around Patsy. Burke is still able to be killed by her. I think John has decided to protect her but also never admits it. He may have convinced himself that she is not involved and may in the back of his mind suspect it. BUT, someone suspected something, because they have two different lawyers unless I am wrong about the reason for the lawyers.

But now that I think John is not involved, it just makes perfect sense to me. I look at John and say if you are guilty, you are smart enough to know to keep your mouth shut. He does not. I just don't believe he took part in it. He is going to protect Patsy. He either does not believe she is involved or is lying to himself.

 

[BOESP]

I just don't think John had anything to do with it and when I look at the scene absent John, it makes total sense to me. Just mo.

Solace, I lean toward your theory on Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays, and every other Sunday. On the other days and alternate Sundays I lean toward the theory that he helped with the cover-up.

Has it factually been established that the paintbrush was used vaginally on JonBenet? The autopsy says microscopic birefringent material and that could be from talcum powder, Desitin, Monostat, anything maybe with glycerin as a base, or any number of personal care items.

Somewhere I've read cellulose was found in minute amounts along with the birefringent material. I don't have any Pull-Ups/disposable diaper packages to check, but if true, I would think cellulose could easily be a component in night-time diapers.

 

[BOESP]

BUT, someone suspected something, because they have two different lawyers unless I am wrong about the reason for the lawyers.

That raised a question in my mind too. I realize they had enough money to hire ten lawyers if they wanted to and it was their constitutional right to do so but, generally, separate lawyers indicate separate interests to be defended and protected.

In my mind, if parents were not guilty, it would seem they would have one good lawyer accompany them to headquarters ASAP to help with the investigation by answering questions. Two lawyers really aren't needed at that point unless one fears the other is guilty or both are guilty but to different degrees of involvement.

 

[Solace]

Solace, I lean toward your theory on Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays, and every other Sunday. On the other days and alternate Sundays I lean toward the theory that he helped with the cover-up.

Has it factually been established that the paintbrush was used vaginally on JonBenet? The autopsy says microscopic birefringent material and that could be from talcum powder, Desitin, Monostat, anything maybe with glycerin as a base, or any number of personal care items.

Somewhere I've read cellulose was found in minute amounts along with the birefringent material. I don't have any Pull-Ups/disposable diaper packages to check, but if true, I would think cellulose could easily be a component in night-time diapers.

As I understood it, it is not certain, it is assumed. But maybe someone else knows for sure.

BOESP,


The only way this crime and the ensuing staging makes sense to me is if John is NOT involved. Can't help it.

 

[BOESP]

The only way this crime and the ensuing staging makes sense to me is if John is NOT involved. Can't help it.

Would that mean you think Patsy carried JonBenet downstairs and put her in the wine cellar?

 

[Solace]

Would that mean you think Patsy carried JonBenet downstairs and put her in the wine cellar?

Yes. After she tied her hair back into two pony tails to keep the scalp together because she could feel the skull "rolling back and forth". I think she completely freaked. I would if I felt my child's head in two and I know she felt it - she certainly heard it break.

All of her fibers are found down there, paint tray, garrotte. I think she staged the whole thing. I am surprised she did not commit suicide after doing that to JonBenet.

 

[rashomon]

I have a hard time believing JR went into that morning knowing nothing, for these reasons -

1. I think he would have recognized Patsy's style of writing and speech right off in the RN

2. I don't believe he would have allowed Patsy to call 911 without mentioning the death threats or called their friends over if he thought that RN was real

3. I don't believe JR would have allowed Burke to go anywhere with anyone if he didn't already know there was no kidnapper and no danger to his son.

And I really think JR's shirt fibers in underwear I do not believe JB was wearing prior to being dressed in them during staging may prove that he was there for that part of the staging, but it could also mean Patsy grabbed his shirt and used it and he wasn't there.

NP, I too believe John was involved in the staging of the scene for the reasons you mentionend.
He did not go over to Patsy and comfort her while the police was in the house. Very strange behavior if he believed in a true kidnapping.

The fact that he made a beeline for the wine cellar when searching for JonBenet and allegedly saw her lying there despite the room being pitch-dark implicates him too. John Ramsey knew his daughter's dead body was in there, no question about it imo.
I believe that when he opened the door to Burke's room, he simply wanted to make sure if Burke hadn't heard anything which was going on. Burke feigned to be sleeping, but if John had known he was awake, he probably would have told him the concocted kidnapping story right away.
Patsy's "oh gosh oh gosh oh gosh" which Burke also heard is probably something similar like her "Help me Jesus" after she had put down the phone.

[Albert 18]
One thing I do believe, if John and Patsy had been in this together since early that morning (meaning if things went bad both Patsy and John would go to jail), John would have been a buffer and would have tried to shield Patsy starting at 6AM. Right after the police arrived was the most dangerous time for something to go wrong and according to the accounts, John basically had nothing to do with Patsy. There was no way he was scared Patsy would make a blunder and give him up. Burke wasn't a threat to John and neither was Patsy. John was not in danger at 6AM.r

I think his not going over to comfort Patsy if he had believed this to be a true kidnapping is very supicious.
I believe John keeping his distance from Patsy betrayed his negative feelings toward her. I also think he only took part in the staging half-heartedly, since he probably believed Patsy would never get away with it all, having had to write the ransom note with her own hand with pen and paper from their home. And who knows, in case Patsy had been arrested, he may have tried to deny he had agreed to help her in the cover-up. jmpo

 

[rashomon]

Solace, I lean toward your theory on Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays, and every other Sunday. On the other days and alternate Sundays I lean toward the theory that he helped with the cover-up.

Has it factually been established that the paintbrush was used vaginally on JonBenet? The autopsy says microscopic birefringent material and that could be from talcum powder, Desitin, Monostat, anything maybe with glycerin as a base, or any number of personal care items.

Somewhere I've read cellulose was found in minute amounts along with the birefringent material. I don't have any Pull-Ups/disposable diaper packages to check, but if true, I would think cellulose could easily be a component in night-time diapers.

I vaguely remember reading about a small cellulose or wooden splinter having been found in the vagina.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Yeah, I agree...I suspect the general absence of John from the staging and RN means he was willing to let Patsy take the fall if need be. I consider that behavior possibly being consistent with resentment over Patsy being the cause of JonBenet's death...as well as his not comforting her during the long wait. JR knew JonBenet was in the wine cellar when he was told to search the house again, and led FW right to it after cementing the window story.

 

[Albert18]

I have a hard time believing JR went into that morning knowing nothing, for these reasons -

1. I think he would have recognized Patsy's style of writing and speech right off in the RN

2. I don't believe he would have allowed Patsy to call 911 without mentioning the death threats or called their friends over if he thought that RN was real

3. I don't believe JR would have allowed Burke to go anywhere with anyone if he didn't already know there was no kidnapper and no danger to his son.

He may have put 2 and 2 together before the 911 call was made.

I think in an actual emergency, John makes the 911 call. I think in an actual emergency, John is front and center with the police. I think in a crime where they are equally involved, John insulates and isolates Patsy immediately because he knew the state she was in. The first two John would have done to protect his family and the last one he would have done to protect himself. None of those three things happened that morning.

 

[Solace]

NP, I too believe John was involved in the staging of the scene for the reasons you mentionend.
He did not go over to Patsy and comfort her while the police was in the house. Very strange behavior if he believed in a true kidnapping. It is possible that he is wondering what is going on himself.

The fact that he made a beeline for the wine cellar when searching for JonBenet and allegedly saw her lying there despite the room being pitch-dark implicates him too. John Ramsey knew his daughter's dead body was in there, no question about it imo. Not disagreeing with that. I think so, but he may very well have found JonBenet when he was gone for a while, as Steve Thomas believes. Steve says he was gone and came back extremely agitated. Thomas believes he found the body then.


I believe that when he opened the door to Burke's room, he simply wanted to make sure if Burke hadn't heard anything which was going on. Burke feigned to be sleeping, but if John had known he was awake, he probably would have told him the concocted kidnapping story right away.
Patsy's "oh gosh oh gosh oh gosh" which Burke also heard is probably something similar like her "Help me Jesus" after she had put down the phone.

Burke says John turned on the light and ran out. That does not sound like someone who is checking on someone to make sure he hadn't heard anything. He does not even tell him to stay there - he runs away - back to where he came from - It sounds very much to me like this was something new to John and he is trying to find out what is going on.


I think his not going over to comfort Patsy if he had believed this to be a true kidnapping is very supicious. I am not saying that John is not now thinking about the situation and possibly wondering about Patsy. This is could be why he is not next to her.

I believe John keeping his distance from Patsy betrayed his negative feelings toward her. Or he is trying to put some things together. John said and I know I read this he though the handwriting of the note and Patsy's is similar.

I also think he only took part in the staging half-heartedly, since he probably believed Patsy would never get away with it all, having had to write the ransom note with her own hand with pen and paper from their home. And who knows, in case Patsy had been arrested, he may have tried to deny he had agreed to help her in the cover-up. jmpo

I can't help it. It just seems to fit perfectly now that I have John not involved in it.