GUILTY NH - AH, 14, North Conway, 9 October 2013 - #12

[inthedark14]

And there is no evidence that she did not participate in her disappearance. My point is moot from a purely legal standpoint, i.e. the defendant cannot invoke that defense, but from a sleuthing standpoint it is totally valid. I mean, surely LE does not say, "well she is a minor so she is just a victim so we better not investigate if she arranged to meet some guy". That makes no sense. They would naturally explore that route. We are here to try and unravel what is still a mystery. Right?

We are indeed and if she had done so, LE would have treated her case far differently in the beginning as well as now.

:banghead:

 

[2Hope4]

Actually Jane Young DID state in one of the press conferences that as a runaway, Zenya would still want them to stay on the case, and she looked at Zenya when she made the comment. I don't remember the exact wording, but Jane Young emphasized that a young girl would need means to stay gone, and therefore she felt someone else was involved. She continues to state that.

 

[bakerlady]

I have a question, why is the idea of Abby running away met with such stonewalling, and has from the beginning. IMO, the signs of a runaway have been present, and yet, vehemently denied that it could be possible from several. Why is that? Wouldn't leaving on your own favor more in a good ending? Wouldn't leaving on your own at least leave hope the person would return? If a strange, random perp grabbed a young girl, the chances of seeing her alive again are almost nil. So why was some opposed to the idea she could have left voluntarily, and still are opposed to that being an option? I never have understood that, so hopefully some can help me.

Yes I realize the dangers of runaways. Very much so, especially after following so many cases here for years. I realize sex trafficking is real, and girls are quickly picked up in runaway situations. But even that aspect was met with such strong opposition that I quit posting here for awhile. Some strongly believed that a stranger abduction was the only viable option, and belittled anyone that thought differently. I still can't understand why someone would rather think that, than a voluntary disappearance for whatever reason.

I think runaways usually give some warning signs or come from abusive homes and it usually is not a surprise. JMO.

We have only heard that Abby was a good, happy kid who played sports and had a caring boyfriend and clothes and food and a brand new iPhone. She has never been described as being depressed or suddenly changing her demeanor.

When teens disappear I often think of suicide. This may be because I have personally known a few teens who have committed suicide but all 3 of them had warning signs and/or suffered from debilitating mental illness. So if Abby was depressed or suicidal I would think that her mom and LE would make that known, as they often do in those situations.

I think the idea of her running away is so strange because where would she run to for so long? As far as I know she did not take out a large sum of money, obviously does not have a credit card, did not pack any belongings, and left no discernible footprint online.

 

[Teche]

Jacie Estes...OT: I needed a laugh! Etch-A-Sketch man. It's so descriptive.

 

[Teche]

It has been resolved; LE has released a sketch, yes, one that is vague and possibly even laughable, 'Etch a Sketch Man', but it is information. The absence of the words 'imminent danger' are just that, an absence. LE isn't saying there is danger because there isn't any. We don't know where the letter home was post marked from and we don't know how far away Abby was from her home base. The 'imminent danger' may well be 500 miles away and LE there, not under the scope that Abby's town is under, may well be the ones who are monitoring him.

A few days ago I checked in here and there was a word which shocked me......FOUND ! I'm new to this place and while perhaps not as emotionally invested as some who are closer to it, or for as long......it brought tears welling up in my eyes to know she was home. Then of course the zillions of questions which all of us had started to race through my mind. So many aspects of this story boggle the mind. I do have a feeling though that if I could ask 10 questions to LE and get straight answers, within an hour I'd have 10 more to ask. It would be an ongoing process as one bit of info just seems to trigger more questions. So, for want of a better term, for the greater good of the investigation, I will have to satisfy my curiosity with knowing she is home and that healing has started. Part of this healing is finding out what happened. If she was abducted people need to know for whom to watch. If she left of her own free will, then she obviously needs some type of help in addressing whatever issues, real or imagined, which she has.
The heartfelt outpouring of concern is amazing to this distant observer; the town seemed genuinely worried. I wonder if Abby was able to see this reaction. In a letter which her mom wrote to her hoping Abby would see it, she said if she came home "we can start a new life and all of this attention--all of this will be a thing of the past." I wonder if Abby was indeed worried about public reaction? Her mother addressed that very point in her open letter to her. Further, her father addressed that very point too in his letter to her "You probably didn't anticipate all the media attention you are getting, and we understand it can be a bit overwhelming and frightening. But please know I will do my best to keep the media away from you, and no one will embarrass you."
The letters from both her parents seem to address concerns of Abby's about media attention. I hope that as concerned as worried as people are, that in the short term, if we are unknowingly feeding into a very basic fear her parents addressed to her early on in the disappearance.

The strange thing about these letters to her is that the letter Abby wrote home was supposedly picked up by her mom on Nov 6? And she replies addressing the media issue....and so did her father which had his letter in the newspaper Nov. 4.....two days before the letter "arrived". Strange how both parents addressed it! As though they are responding directly to a concern of hers.......was the "arrival date" of the letter fudged? I just noticed that tonight, and in the larger scheme of things is small potatoes.....but interesting.

Anyway, as curious as we all are I hope we are not responding in the very way I believe she and her parents wanted to protect her from. I wish I knew where to draw the lines here which would satisfy everyone!

Paul, my sister is never coming home. We got a small box of remains after 17 years of not knowing what happened. If I were in Zenya's kitchen I would tell her to hug Abby and enjoy it. I will never laugh with my sister again, stay up all night giggling with my sister or fight and argue with my sister. I miss her. I miss her every day and what I miss most is that feeling that we were all safe. Abby is home, she's safe and she's already lost 9 months of her time, don't lose another second worrying what anyone thinks. This isn't about anyone else, this is about Abby. She's home, rejoice, laugh, dance and enjoy it fully. Sing songs, pull out the Christmas decorations and bake some cookies and redo the holidays. Go on that vacation you always thought you'd do together. Eat banana splits for supper and shout your joy from the mountain tops. Please, for all us who can't and won't ever smile and hug our lost loved ones, hug Abby and smile. Please, for all of us who need to see and know a happy ending. This is a happy ending and don't you dare let anyone cheat you out of it.
ETA I don't mean this as a slam to anyone. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and I respect those.

The thanks button isn't enough. No truer words. Hugs.

 

[bakerlady]

BBM

In a press release Tuesday, Foster asked the public for help in recognizing clothing that Abigail or another female may have been seen wearing in the vicinity of Abigail's home between 10 and 10:30 Sunday night, around the time the teen returned home.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/investigators-release-sketch-in-abigail-hernandez-case/

Of all the confusing things in this case, that statement is one of the most puzzling. What does it mean? I wonder if she colored/cut her hair and/or looks very different so there is no other woman but if people saw her they would not recognize her and assume it was someone else.

 

[mpnola]

I have a question, why is the idea of Abby running away met with such stonewalling, and has from the beginning. IMO, the signs of a runaway have been present, and yet, vehemently denied that it could be possible from several. Why is that? Wouldn't leaving on your own favor more in a good ending? Wouldn't leaving on your own at least leave hope the person would return? If a strange, random perp grabbed a young girl, the chances of seeing her alive again are almost nil. So why was some opposed to the idea she could have left voluntarily, and still are opposed to that being an option? I never have understood that, so hopefully some can help me.

Yes I realize the dangers of runaways. Very much so, especially after following so many cases here for years. I realize sex trafficking is real, and girls are quickly picked up in runaway situations. But even that aspect was met with such strong opposition that I quit posting here for awhile. Some strongly believed that a stranger abduction was the only viable option, and belittled anyone that thought differently. I still can't understand why someone would rather think that, than a voluntary disappearance for whatever reason.

I agree. If she ran away, some accountability for her actions would have to be placed on her, even though an adult would have had to help assist her to be gone so long. I kind of think people feel like if they place some of the accountability on her, it is "victim-blaming". They would rather her have absolutely no involvement and have been snatched than to even think that she chose to be in that situation, in some form or fashion. Even her own father believes it is the most likely scenario. Its a strange phenomenon, to me, that rather than give validity to any plausible scenarios, some are too taboo to even suggest. Kids run away! There always has to be a first time! With the internet, finding someone else to go along with you is easy! It is just a reality that it is possible. Doesn't mean it is necessarily what happened, but it is certainly a possible scenario that doesn't make her any less of a great girl! Even super great 14 year old girls do things that aren't the "smartest". It's ok.

 

[Fireweed]

BBM

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/investigators-release-sketch-in-abigail-hernandez-case/

Of all the confusing things in this case, that statement is one of the most puzzling. What does it mean? I wonder if she colored/cut her hair and/or looks very different so there is no other woman but if people saw her they would not recognize her and assume it was someone else.

It has been the source of a lot of confusion because LE in this case has absolutely no clue as to how to properly communicate with the public. What they are wondering is if anyone saw Abby. Now, the problem is that someone may have seen a woman walking down the street wearing those clothes, and that woman may have been Abby, but the person may not have realized it was Abby, so LE is asking for people who either saw Abby or a woman wearing that outfit to come forward.

LE could have worded it in a less confusing way. The whole thing could have been really clear. I have seen so much confusion over that one statement all over the internet, but I have see not one clarification from LE on this. Just think everyone should keep in mind that a group that cannot craft a comprehensible press release is entrusted with solving this.

 

[LookingHoping]

Paul, my sister is never coming home. We got a small box of remains after 17 years of not knowing what happened. If I were in Zenya's kitchen I would tell her to hug Abby and enjoy it. I will never laugh with my sister again, stay up all night giggling with my sister or fight and argue with my sister. I miss her. I miss her every day and what I miss most is that feeling that we were all safe. Abby is home, she's safe and she's already lost 9 months of her time, don't lose another second worrying what anyone thinks. This isn't about anyone else, this is about Abby. She's home, rejoice, laugh, dance and enjoy it fully. Sing songs, pull out the Christmas decorations and bake some cookies and redo the holidays. Go on that vacation you always thought you'd do together. Eat banana splits for supper and shout your joy from the mountain tops. Please, for all us who can't and won't ever smile and hug our lost loved ones, hug Abby and smile. Please, for all of us who need to see and know a happy ending. This is a happy ending and don't you dare let anyone cheat you out of it.
ETA I don't mean this as a slam to anyone. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and I respect those.

Mom24 TY TY for sharing and TY for saying it out in public. THIS, yes THIS is it right here… hell it is IT right here for any parent or any sibling, Live your day, make it worth it and screw the rest! TY even more for letting me skip the last page and a half/two pages because THIS is the most important post in this thread to every single human beings life. Zenya and Abby and Sarah… being together is all their is that matters in life. Enjoy, Embrace… Live-Laugh-Love. Yes!

 

[CatFancier]

I just do not understand how we can be "victim-friendly" when we are dealing with a situation like this. We have no evidence that Abby was the victim of a kidnapping or a forced abduction. If she were an adult, we would all be seriously questioning if she was an actual victim or not right now. It is hard to sleuth this case because we are dealing with a minor, and so I can think of scenarios in which an adult participating would not have made them a victim, but because of Abby's age, she is technically the victim of a crime.

We don't work within legal definitions here. Abby is a victim because Abby was missing, it's that simple.

I agree. If she ran away, some accountability for her actions would have to be placed on her, even though an adult would have had to help assist her to be gone so long. I kind of think people feel like if they place some of the accountability on her, it is "victim-blaming". They would rather her have absolutely no involvement and have been snatched than to even think that she chose to be in that situation, in some form or fashion. Even her own father believes it is the most likely scenario. Its a strange phenomenon, to me, that rather than give validity to any plausible scenarios, some are too taboo to even suggest. Kids run away! There always has to be a first time! With the internet, finding someone else to go along with you is easy! It is just a reality that it is possible. Doesn't mean it is necessarily what happened, but it is certainly a possible scenario that doesn't make her any less of a great girl! Even super great 14 year old girls do things that aren't the "smartest". It's ok.

And if it is found she did run away, and no crime has occurred, her threads will be pulled out of respect for her. The located forums here are full of the deceased and crime victims, not of those who made their own choices regardless of age.

Mom24 TY TY for sharing and TY for saying it out in public. THIS, yes THIS is it right here… hell it is IT right here for any parent or any sibling, Live your day, make it worth it and screw the rest! TY even more for letting me skip the last page and a half/two pages because THIS is the most important post in this thread to every single human beings life. Zenya and Abby and Sarah… being together is all their is in live. Enjoy, Embrace… Live-Laugh-Love right!

Absolutely agree with this. I can name dozens of cases I've followed closely for days, weeks and months and it is SO RARE to have someone found safe, especially when they last as long as this one. I hope and pray she and her family are healing and growing together.

 

[trigger]

True, he was pretty insensitive. But try and put yourself in his shoes. What if your son, also a CHILD, was under suspicion, falsely? Wouldn't you speak out and try to defend him. Even if doing so might be awkward and insensitive to the other party?

My sons gf's parents were very angry AT MY SON because they found birth control pills in her room. They instantly blamed him and were very rude and accusatory towards us. They accused him of taking her virginity. My son told me that she was having sex before he even met her. And he was the one that convinced her to get some protection. But he did not tell her parents that. He let them blame him, which they did for awhile. Eventually they learned the truth though and they apologized.

So things can get very sticky and complicated in these kinds of family dynamics. You see this man as making a spectacle of Amy. But it might also be said that he was trying to shift the blame away from his son. And maybe now what he wants is confirmation that his son was innocent all along.

I was thinking also that the media was probably at his house or business trying to get him or his son to speak out about Abby coming back. They probably hounded his family daily. Then rhey had to deal with people calling his home asking if he found out where she was. Imo it could have set him off to.

 

[Fireweed]

We don't work within legal definitions here. Abby is a victim because Abby was missing, it's that simple.

[modsnip]

Abby's case is very fishy. Surely anyone who has followed it can see that. I know she was a missing person, but there is some very strong doubts as to whether or not she was the one who created her own disappearance. I cannot come to a sleuthing site and just blow that off. There is too much evidence to the contrary. To me the concept of "victim-friendly" does not extend to something like this. Victim-friendly is something different. Like over on the LISK board, no one says, "these women were just so who cares!" That would be totally against the "victim-friendly" rule. But if there is plenty of good and reasonable evidence that the "victim" of a kidnapping really isn't, then shouldn't that be fair game for discussion?

 

[katydid23]

I was thinking also that the media was probably at his house or business trying to get him or his son to speak out about Abby coming back. They probably hounded his family daily. Then rhey had to deal with people calling his home asking if he found out where she was. Imo it could have set him off to.

When my sons girlfriend ran away, we were hounded daily. Her Mom was calling me and making accusations. And LE was coming around talking to my son. And friends of theirs were texting my son and messaging him on FB. Asking him where she was. He knew she was hiding from her parents and that she was safe. But I cannot imagine how it would have been if he did not know where she was or what happened.

Her parents called my son's boss and luckily he had a good relationship with his boss so he didn't lose his job. Eventually it was revealed that she left because her Dad had been hitting her. I am glad we were proven innocent in all of this. It was a nightmare. But her parents were angry about finding her birth control, so they put the blame on our son, and tried to make it all about him, and not their corporal punishment.

I am rambling, but the point I am trying to make is that a runaway can affect lots of other people, besides just the one who is missing.

Also, this family grew to love my son, and they were very upset when the kids broke up, in college, 3 yrs later. lol

 

[LookingHoping]

I don't see anything fishy and any minor who created their own disappearance would be considered a minor as Catfancier explained above. Abby's story does not seem fishy in anyway other than some fishy perp either coerced, lured or abducted her. Either way a crime has been committed, a child is in fragile condition and had missed out on the better part of a yr of her life which will likely take years to get back. That's not fishy, that's wrong

 

[cluciano63]

Trying to imagine the reaction if no one seemed to know where Elizabeth S. had been for nine months, had she simply walked in instead of being spotted. I think a lot of people would have thought her father must be involved, as many did anyway before she was rescued.

I don't mind admitting I am extremely curious as to what became of Abigail on that day last October and how it came about. i don't feel a need for details, other than what sort of crime occurred, if any, other than the possibility of someone allowing her stay with them (yes, still a crime, I know that). Maybe if she was being cared for, the person or people thought she was in danger. Anyway, yes I am curious but I don't insist it is my right to know. I might feel differently if I had a child and live in North Conway though. Jmo

 

[nycgrl]

If Abby was your child, would you want details blasted all over media? Would you be telling personal information to a man who goes running to the Daily Mail sharing CLASSIFIED information that LE never provided and in my opinion, making extremely inappropriate comments? I think not.

 

[bessie]

If Abby was your child, would you want details blasted all over media? Would you be telling personal information to a man who goes running to the Daily Mail sharing CLASSIFIED information that LE never provided and in my opinion, making extremely inappropriate comments? I think not.

<rbbm>

Heck, no!

Excellent point. Thank you.

 

[bessie]

Trying to imagine the reaction if no one seemed to know where Elizabeth S. had been for nine months, had she simply walked in instead of being spotted. I think a lot of people would have thought her father must be involved, as many did anyway before she was rescued.

I don't mind admitting I am extremely curious as to what became of Abigail on that day last October and how it came about. i don't feel a need for details, other than what sort of crime occurred, if any, other than the possibility of someone allowing her stay with them (yes, still a crime, I know that). Maybe if she was being cared for, the person or people thought she was in danger. Anyway, yes I am curious but I don't insist it is my right to know. I might feel differently if I had a child and live in North Conway though. Jmo

<rbbm>

Another great point. Had Elizabeth's rescue occurred under different circumstances, and the perp not immediately apprehended, LE no doubt would have withheld details for some period of time, raising suspicions. Yet the Smarts would have been as blameless as they are today.

 

[gitana1]

I agree. If she ran away, some accountability for her actions would have to be placed on her, even though an adult would have had to help assist her to be gone so long. I kind of think people feel like if they place some of the accountability on her, it is "victim-blaming". They would rather her have absolutely no involvement and have been snatched than to even think that she chose to be in that situation, in some form or fashion. Even her own father believes it is the most likely scenario. Its a strange phenomenon, to me, that rather than give validity to any plausible scenarios, some are too taboo to even suggest. Kids run away! There always has to be a first time! With the internet, finding someone else to go along with you is easy! It is just a reality that it is possible. Doesn't mean it is necessarily what happened, but it is certainly a possible scenario that doesn't make her any less of a great girl! Even super great 14 year old girls do things that aren't the "smartest". It's ok.

I'm certainly not ruling out that she ran away or left "voluntarily". So what? Abby was a 14 year old child when she disappeared. She was gone for 9 months. 14 year old children like her do not survive on the street for 9 months unless they are being exploited.

Abby is a victim. Period.

 

[gitana1]

That is where I disagree. Clearly LE was on to the fact that Abby was not the victim of abduction from very early on. They treated the case the way they did because she was still a missing child, and so it was irrelevant whether she went on her own or was abducted.

But in terms of solving the actual crime. In terms of finding the adult that facilitated Abigail's disappearance, they will not not consider Abby's participation when investigating. Her minority does not preclude that part, which is what this site is about, no?

I don't think that's clear at all. I think LE always explored that possibility, but millions of teens runaway each year and do not merit this response from LE.

By far, the most prevalent type of reported missing children in the United States are runaway/thrownaway children. According to the National Runaway Safeline (Formerly the National Runaway Switchboard,) between 1.6-2.8 million youth runaway each year in the United States. Children can begin running as young as ages 10-14. The youngest are the most at-risk for the dangers of street life.

Unfortunately, all too often runaway youth are often considered a family problem, rather than a child welfare and societal concern&#8212;in spite of the astronomical numbers of children who runaway.
PKF Caseworkers have heard runaway youth referred to as &#8220;unruly kids who choose not to follow rules,&#8221; or as &#8220;troublemakers,&#8221; &#8220;voluntarily missing,&#8221; or &#8220;just a runaway.&#8221; http://www.pollyklaas.org/enews-archive/2013-enews/article-web-pages/the-truth-about-runaways.html

Nevertheless, I think being a runaway is a good possibility here. But being exploited is guaranteed.