NH NH - Allenstown, Adult Female & 3 Children, found Nov'85 & May'00

[Tssiemer]

I was just thinking there was some sort of program they would run from time to time that would match the DNA of the UID's to the MP's. In this case, I think they only had mitochondrial DNA, that is why they couldn't establish a paternal relationship a this time.

I mean, I don't think it's that far fetched to have a program like this. Granted it may take a long time to run the program (like I would imagine it could take months of not years to check all DNA in the system) but it would be well worth it.


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[Alleykins]

Thank you everyone, for being so welcoming!

 

[carbuff]

I mean, I don't think it's that far fetched to have a program like this. Granted it may take a long time to run the program (like I would imagine it could take months of not years to check all DNA in the system) but it would be well worth it.


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That's what CODIS is. It exists and generally works. It just has some glitches between how it's supposed to work and how it works in practice, mostly related to sample quality and to paperwork. [emoji12]


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[Tssiemer]

Yeah but if DNA sample A is put in when say a person goes missing (let's make that common practice) and it searches B through Z. Then many years later DNA that matches A is put in when a body is found 10 years later but it's in another state (or something). Does it find a match or does it have to be specifically matched to a name?


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[carbuff]

Yeah but if DNA sample A is put in when say a person goes missing (let's make that common practice) and it searches B through Z. Then many years later DNA that matches A is put in when a body is found 10 years later but it's in another state (or something). Does it find a match or does it have to be specifically matched to a name?

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Well, the general answer is supposed to be yes, and in most cases it works.

If the body only has mtDNA (as is common with recovered remains) and none of A's family reference samples (FRS) come from a relative through the female line, there won't be a match.

If either sample is held in a local or regional database, it might not be compared. In MA, for example, many LE agencies don't put a missing person on the national sites unless they have reason to think the person left the area, so even though there's local DNA, the comparison will never be made.

I've been told that if the missing person doesn't have enough FRS samples to make a valid comparison, they won't be run. Apparently if you have DNA from only one relative who's not a parent, the odds of somebody matching by chance (false positive) come into play. It's one in a million--but CODIS is up to something like 4 million samples, and increasing daily.

And apparently LE can mark the file to not be run all the time. So they compare it once but then don't check it again for a long time. This might be due to costs involved.

 

[Tssiemer]

4 million samples is crazy!!


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[carbuff]

4 million samples is crazy!!


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And that was from an article in late 2014. With the push to test backlogged rape kits and samples from people convicted of violent crimes, it's probably more like 5 to 6 million by now.

 

[Roselvr]

Has anyone considered submitting Cynthia Louise Putnam?

http://oakhillresearch.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/the-missng-theories.html

A relative posted her on City-Data. I've been trying to speak to them to get her listed in NamUs. Really can't do anything until then

This is a tough one, for sure. It boggles my mind that four people possibly from one family can go missing and no one seems to be looking for them. Or, if they are, something about it isn't clicking for them, like the reconstructions don't look familiar or maybe they didn't know they were in NH? What are the chances that no one has reported them or realized they were missing are due to some other reason, like, the families think they died some other way, like in a fire or boating accident, where there is a potential to find no remains? If they lived far away, they may not have even verified. I know, I'm stretching it a bit here, but four people disappearing is usually a red flag. Just thinking out loud. . .

The right person has not seen the story.

Someone has to know about at least one of the children because the middle child has a different mother and possibly a different father, but at this point, anything could be possible. I don't see this as a Jaycee Dugard situation, but again, it can't be ruled out. This is just my opinion. It doesn't count for much. :blushing:
In my head, I see this as a woman with two kids who was also taking care of another child, possibly a paternal cousin to the two girls. Someone else had mentioned older sister, younger half sisters and the middle girl as a cousin to the younger two as a possibility, which could make sense, too. If the middle girl was put in their care due to death or incarceration of her parents or parent, it would make sense that maybe she hasn't been reported missing.

I have a feeling the father of the middle child either had custody, or simply split with the child. Back then LE didn't do much. I think he met up with our Jane, they had a child together. Suzanne Sevakis was mentioned above; one of the names she went by was Sharon Marshall if you're not familiar with the case see her WS thread.

I hope no one minds if I post a few general questions here. I did look for like a general Q&A section but it's mind boggling and I kept clicking and kept ending up on closed threads.
First, in NamUs, if a UID and a missing person both have submitted DNA, it is just assumed that all DNA submissions are automatically compared to each other? I'm trying to figure out how that works.
Also, if you do want to suggest a name about a UID, who do you contact? The folks with the remains, or the missing person's contact?
Lastly, how do I make the reply box bigger? All I'm getting is this teeny tiny quick reply window and I have to keep scrolling up and down to see what I've written. I thought there would be a preview somewhere.
Thank you for humoring the newb!

As others have said, no, not every MP or UP has DNA in the same system. In some cases LE holds the DNA. LE holds the DNA for WI - Raymond (Racine County) - WhtFem aged 14-25, July'99 *Graphic*.

An MP Margaret Walden was identified as NM - Pagosa Springs, WhtFem aged 25-35, @ San Juan River, Sep'82; both had DNA. I spoke to someone from NamUs that said that one sample (Margo's family) was at CalDOJ lab and the other (Margo as JD) was at FBI. They did not know outside of UNT if they were at the level to be compared nationally. So we should keep in mind that just because they both have DNA, it doesn't mean they can make an auto match. The only way to be sure would be to turn it in.

Want to also mention that CODIS is the FBI database; UNT is the database in Texas

 

[Alleykins]

I’m wondering if these four were somehow connected to Rockingham Park in Salem, NH. It’s almost a straight shot up 93 or 28 to Bear Brook State Park from the track. In 1980, the park suffered a devastating fire with no reported fatalities. Up until then, it had been a premier horse racing venue, both for thoroughbred racing and harness racing (standard bred). If the victims and perpetrator were involved with the harness racing industry either as drivers, trainers, or grooms, they most likely led nomadic lives and would have traveled to different racetracks throughout New England during the racing or fair season. One circuit would have taken them all over Maine in the summer, as far north as the Maine/Canada border in Presque Isle, Maine. The Maine fair season ends with the Fryeburg, Maine fair in early October, which is close to the Maine/NH border. That could explain some of their isotope results and why the folks they came into contact with may not have noticed their disappearance or thought nothing of losing touch with them, especially before social media and the internet. I hung out at my local track a long time ago and found it to be a transient, tight knit group where people came and went. There were people that were there one meet and never seen again during rest of the season. It also attracted some colorful characters to the grandstands.
Alternatively, if the perpetrator were in construction, he may have been employed by one of the crews that worked on the rebuilding of Rockingham Park, which could explain why they were in the area at that time, and possibly explain the oil drums. Coincidentally, the park was closed from 1980-1984, the same time frame in which these victims were believed to have been killed.

 

[Earth]

Did you ask those on the case about this connection?

 

[Roselvr]

I’m wondering if these four were somehow connected to Rockingham Park in Salem, NH. It’s almost a straight shot up 93 or 28 to Bear Brook State Park from the track. In 1980, the park suffered a devastating fire with no reported fatalities. Up until then, it had been a premier horse racing venue, both for thoroughbred racing and harness racing (standard bred). If the victims and perpetrator were involved with the harness racing industry either as drivers, trainers, or grooms, they most likely led nomadic lives and would have traveled to different racetracks throughout New England during the racing or fair season. One circuit would have taken them all over Maine in the summer, as far north as the Maine/Canada border in Presque Isle, Maine. The Maine fair season ends with the Fryeburg, Maine fair in early October, which is close to the Maine/NH border. That could explain some of their isotope results and why the folks they came into contact with may not have noticed their disappearance or thought nothing of losing touch with them, especially before social media and the internet. I hung out at my local track a long time ago and found it to be a transient, tight knit group where people came and went. There were people that were there one meet and never seen again during rest of the season. It also attracted some colorful characters to the grandstands.
Alternatively, if the perpetrator were in construction, he may have been employed by one of the crews that worked on the rebuilding of Rockingham Park, which could explain why they were in the area at that time, and possibly explain the oil drums. Coincidentally, the park was closed from 1980-1984, the same time frame in which these victims were believed to have been killed.

Not sure if you had seen this.

Identify These Victims FB Page
JaneDoe Allenstown FB Profile
Mystery in Allenstown, NH blog see the comments - THANK YOU to the former park residents who came out on Saturday to meet us! It was an encouragement to know people want to help identify these little girls. Later in the week, more maps of the park will be posted starting with the Stonybrook Ave section which is where we will be filling in names first. Shoot us an email if you lived in the park and haven't already heard from us! [email protected]

It's very possible. I've wondered if he was a Gypsy. Gypsies are known to do drive ways.
Not sure if you've seen what I posted last year.

Identify These Victims FB Page
JaneDoe Allenstown FB Profile
Mystery in Allenstown, NH blog see the comments - THANK YOU to the former park residents who came out on Saturday to meet us! It was an encouragement to know people want to help identify these little girls. Later in the week, more maps of the park will be posted starting with the Stonybrook Ave section which is where we will be filling in names first. Shoot us an email if you lived in the park and haven't already heard from us! [email protected]

Click here if you lived in Bear Brook Gardens between 1977 and 1985

Has anyone read the comments to the blog? There is a huge tip there - see the comments

Oak Hill ResearchJanuary 13, 2015 at 2:30 PM

Yesterday there was a comment posted here that we chose to remove because it mentioned several living persons. We have reposted the comment but removed both names:

The man who loaded trucks name was (NAME REMOVED) he was a man that worked carnivals. He was very nice looking but with acne he was bitten by a dog on his left cheek and had a nasty scar. He had shoulder length hair parted on the left. he was about 24/26 5foot ten/eleven hazel or dark blue eye's. He was a police officer? He had a badge. He was from Maryland. The barrels were from NY and carried sealant. Could be used for driveways or mobile home roofs. The family traveled with the carnival and from another country. They lived up above the store and they came to Allenstown NH because of the trucker and his helpers to work . The family originally stayed in a white camper that they lived in before the window blew out in a storm. There were three children and one woman. One of the middle children belonged to the trucker . The woman spoke broken English. One of the most mangled of the babies was a boy? ( I think)The Man who drove truck parked it beside the camper after the murders and The barrels showed up possibly when the mobile home was removed. The moving of the mobile home the burning of the store and the trucker are connected. (DIFFERENT NAME REMOVED). Start there.
The murder of the two eldest happened across the road from the store. The other two behind store.

 

[Alleykins]

O, my goodness! What a coincidence that you mentioned the gypsies. We called them the paving gypsies in my area and they were very, very active at my local racetrack. These were well groomed big spenders, though, not your run of the mills drifters. They'd follow the racing season around my state and scam people between meets. It's as if you read my mind, because the those were the questionable people in the grandstands I was referring to! Though I was leaning more towards a horse person's family, a paving scammer who hung out at the track could be a consideration, too. I had a ton of fun hanging out with them, but it was a seedy little underworld. This is not to imply everyone involved with this industry was like that, it was just the ones I met.
No, I missed those comments, sorry. It doesn't appear that those tips panned out, though. The person supplied names, and it's been a year & they're still not identified.
I binged read the comments on the Oakhill blog. It mentions that the bodies and the barrels were transported separately, and then the bodies were placed in the barrels on site as opposed to being in the barrels, transported to the park and then dropped off? Did I read that right? It would make sense to do it that way if the person was alone. I imagine those barrels are heavy when empty, can't imagine only one person could dispose of them if they contained something.

 

[Roselvr]

No clue what happened to my post, could have sworn I removed the top partial quote. I've always thought he was some sort of temp worker, whether driveways, carnival, even horses. It wouldn't surprise me if she was more local; he met her and her older daughter at the carnival.

I just asked on the blog if the tip was turned in.

 

[Alleykins]

I checked the reply, and it was "yes" but that was all. It's been over a year. If it were a valid tip, would it have been proven or disproved by now?

 

[carbuff]

Not necessarily. Sometimes LE investigations, even very active ones, move at a glacial pace.

And if it did lead anywhere, it's likely they wouldn't say anything public anyway.

 

[Alleykins]

Someone previously mentioned a possible military/Pease AFB connection. I think this may have some merit, too. Since the three related victims had spent some time in a colder, more northerly location 3-7 months prior to their deaths, it's possible they had recently transferred in from a another base that would fit the isotopes of the middle child, as that time coincides with her coming into their company. I'm familiar with Loring AFB, but there are some bases in the mid-West that would also fall into the red boxes for the middle child's maps. When my sister was stationed at Loring in the 80s, several of the military families took in foster children, and some were also adopted.

 

[Boomeroreo]

I would find out if anyone was missing around that time or prior to finding out who killed them, sounds like daddy or husband had something to do with this

 

[Alleykins]

What I've been doing with my searches is breaking down the group into various combinations, like searching for individuals who are believed to be runaways who may have been pregnant, or a mother and one child, or a toddler, and narrowed it down based on region. I found one possibility and contacted the law enforcement agency to ask them to consider this case, as the individual hasn't been ruled out yet. However, I haven't come up with much. The only known mother and child I could find that would fit this case profile to a "t" has already been ruled out, and that happened right away when the first barrel was discovered. I think finding the barrels at separate times so many years apart may have thrown off anyone looking for the four of them. It's possible someone looking for them originally dismissed the case because it was only two, and passed away before the second barrel was found. I'm guessing of course, but it's a possibility. I'm certain if someone were looking for four missing females, three of them related, in this day and age, that they would be identified. Prior to 2000 and the widespread use of the internet, perhaps not so much.

 

[Roselvr]

What I've been doing with my searches is breaking down the group into various combinations, like searching for individuals who are believed to be runaways who may have been pregnant, or a mother and one child, or a toddler, and narrowed it down based on region. I found one possibility and contacted the law enforcement agency to ask them to consider this case, as the individual hasn't been ruled out yet. However, I haven't come up with much. The only known mother and child I could find that would fit this case profile to a "t" has already been ruled out, and that happened right away when the first barrel was discovered. I think finding the barrels at separate times so many years apart may have thrown off anyone looking for the four of them. It's possible someone looking for them originally dismissed the case because it was only two, and passed away before the second barrel was found. I'm guessing of course, but it's a possibility. I'm certain if someone were looking for four missing females, three of them related, in this day and age, that they would be identified. Prior to 2000 and the widespread use of the internet, perhaps not so much.

I agree that finding the barrels years apart complicated the case. Would be nice if we had a better estimate of when they were killed. I've felt the woman was local, she met the guy there; they had the youngest. Would be a huge job to look at birth records without knowing. I wonder if LE hit the school records if they could find the oldest girl.

Grandson needs me, will try to get back here later. I saw the blog replied but haven't had time to get over there.

Want to paste in their info so I don't have to search for it again.

VICTIM 1 - ADULT FEMALE - Unidentified White Female - Estimated age: 23-32 years old. most likely in her mid-20s when killed, but could be as old as 33.

She was most likely the mother of the oldest and youngest child, but could have been a sibling, maternal aunt or cousin of the two. Investigators tested isotopes in the victims' bones, hair and teeth and determined that the adult, the oldest child and youngest child likely lived in an area close to the Atlantic Coast. They likely lived anywhere in an area stretching from Pennsylvania through Maine, but it's possible they lived in other parts of the country, Agati said. All four victims were together and likely living in the “New Hampshire region” anytime from two weeks to three months before their murder. *Added 11/17/2015

Approximate Height and Weight: 5'2-5'7"
Distinguishing Characteristics: Curly, light brown hair, approximately four inches in length
She had three fillings, and she had to have three of her teeth removed.

The victim was discovered on November 10, 1985 in Allenstown, Merrimack County, New Hampshire
Estimated Date of Death: 1-4 years prior - "They were killed at the same time, and this time period has now been narrowed down to sometime between 1980 and 1984" * added 11/17/2015
Skeletal Remains - The victim was discovered on November 10, 1985 in Allenstown, Merrimack County, New Hampshire

NamUs - https://identifyus.org/en/cases/2174
Doe Network - http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/799ufnh.html
_____________________________

VICTIM 2 - OLDEST AGED GIRL - Estimated age: 9-10 years old. Maternally related to adult and child 3.

Investigators tested isotopes in the victims' bones, hair and teeth and determined that the adult, the oldest child and youngest child likely lived in an area close to the Atlantic Coast. They likely lived anywhere in an area stretching from Pennsylvania through Maine, but it's possible they lived in other parts of the country, Agati said. All four victims were together and likely living in the “New Hampshire region” anytime from two weeks to three months before their murder. *Added 11/17/2015

Approximate Height and Weight: 4'3".
Distinguishing Characteristics: Possibly Native. Dark blonde or light brown, fine hair. Double-pierced ears.
Dentals: Shovel shaped anterior dentition.
Estimated Date of Death: 1-4 years prior - "They were killed at the same time, and this time period has now been narrowed down to sometime between 1980 and 1984" * added 11/17/2015
Skeletal Remains - The victim was discovered on November 10, 1985 in Allenstown, Merrimack County, New Hampshire

NamUs - https://identifyus.org/en/cases/2173
Doe Network - http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/800ufnh.html
NCMEC - http://www.missingkids.com/poster/NCMU/1100629
_____________________________

VICTIM 3 - MIDDLE AGED GIRL - Estimated age: 3-4 years old
Approximate Height and Weight: 3'8". The middle child was not maternally related to the others, but it's possible she was a half-sister of the other girl(s). It is unknown at this time if they are paternally related.

The middle child likely spent her childhood further inland, most likely further north in an area that includes a small part of northern New Hampshire, extreme northern Maine, a portion of the upper Connecticut River Valley, a few areas of upstate New York or a large swath that runs through the Plains states. She may also have lived as far west as Minnesota. Investigators said that child likely spent most of her life away from the other three, but in the last several weeks or months before she died, all four victims were together or near each other. All four victims were together and likely living in the “New Hampshire region” anytime from two weeks to three months before their murder. *Added 11/17/2015

Distinguishing Characteristics: Brown; slightly wavy, 5 inches long.
She had an overbite that might have been noticeable
Estimated Date of Death: "They were killed at the same time, and this time period has now been narrowed down to sometime between 1980 and 1984" * added 11/17/2015
Skeletal Remains - The victim was discovered on May 9, 2000 in in Allenstown, Merrimack County, New Hampshire with youngest victim

NamUs - https://identifyus.org/en/cases/2175
Doe Network - http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/802ufnh.html
NCMEC - http://www.missingkids.com/poster/NCMU/1100629
_____________________________

VICTIM 4 - YOUNGEST AGED GIRL - Estimated age: 2-3 years old. Maternally related to adult and child 1. Investigators tested isotopes in the victims' bones, hair and teeth and determined that the adult, the oldest child and youngest child likely lived in an area close to the Atlantic Coast. They likely lived anywhere in an area stretching from Pennsylvania through Maine, but it's possible they lived in other parts of the country, Agati said. They all spent their last few weeks in the New Hampshire region. *Added 11/17/2015

Approximate Height and Weight: 2'5"
Distinguishing Characteristics: Fine blonde hair which was approximately 8 to 12 inches in length.
Estimated Date of Death: "They were killed at the same time, and this time period has now been narrowed down to sometime between 1980 and 1984" * added 11/17/2015
Skeletal Remains - The victim was discovered on May 9, 2000 in in Allenstown, Merrimack County, New Hampshire

NamUs - https://identifyus.org/en/cases/2176
Doe Network - http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/801ufnh.html
NCMEC - http://www.missingkids.com/poster/NCMU/1100629

 

[Alleykins]

In the press conf. video, the AG says they have looked at school records, but doesn't say how closely.
Does anyone know if fluoride from water can be detected on a victim's teeth through isotopes or other means? My state has fluoridated city water since before I was born, but not all states in NE fluoridated their water (MA didn't back in the 80s and before, not sure about now). That could possibly eliminate some possible places about New England, and I wonder if they could tell the difference between well water and public water sources.
Also, around 37:00 of the raw video footage of the press conference, would anyone be able to tell me what name the questioner is asking the AG about? I can't hear/understand her, but he specifically replies "he" in the answer. Did anyone hear what she was saying? Thanks!