NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #10

[Jmoose]

This is for James Renner-James, I have to respectfully disagree with you, and agree with Scoops. If you've never been to the White Mountains, you may not realize that Mt. Washington has some of the most extreme weather in the world (that's "world", not "country"). I think, without a clue directing an exact area where she's likely to be, that LE would think long and hard before endangering their personnel. Even if they did a search with 80 searchers, on one occasion, it would be very unlikely that she would be found in the White Mountains National Forest. I don't think that means, though, that she isn't in there.

 

[scoops]

This is for James Renner-James, I have to respectfully disagree with you, and agree with Scoops. If you've never been to the White Mountains, you may not realize that Mt. Washington has some of the most extreme weather in the world (that's "world", not "country"). I think, without a clue directing an exact area where she's likely to be, that LE would think long and hard before endangering their personnel. Even if they did a search with 80 searchers, on one occasion, it would be very unlikely that she would be found in the White Mountains National Forest. I don't think that means, though, that she isn't in there.

Just to add to this and to be very politically incorrect at the same time:

The honest reaction of police investigators when they heard that an adult went missing near the white mountains was likely "Godspeed" to this young woman."

Hence why Fred became so frustrated and why I believe he felt he had to introduce a potential "Bad Guy" scenario to force investigative action.

This is all IMO, but is part of the reason I don't believe a massive search effort took place in the mountains for her.

Resources are typically more readily available if a child goes missing than from something like this scenario.

From what I have followed concerning this case. The police investigators have done a dilligent job of following up leads, but not leading the way in finding her. It has all been fred and the media attention which has driven the searches. (again IMO).

 

[Fireweed]

I wonder why no one has done another search of that area? Obviously, if we are looking for something there, then we are no longer looking for a living person, so the search could be much slower and much more meticulous.

The area that needs to be searched would only be an area where Maura could have reasonably gone to that night. It would be a big area, but not that big considering.

 

[Fireweed]

Just to add to this and to be very politically incorrect at the same time:

The honest reaction of police investigators when they heard that an adult went missing near the white mountains was likely "Godspeed" to this young woman."

Hence why Fred became so frustrated and why I believe he felt he had to introduce a potential "Bad Guy" scenario to force investigative action.

This is all IMO, but is part of the reason I don't believe a massive search effort took place in the mountains for her.

Resources are typically more readily available if a child goes missing than from something like this scenario.

From what I have followed concerning this case. The police investigators have done a dilligent job of following up leads, but not leading the way in finding her. It has all been fred and the media attention which has driven the searches. (again IMO).

ITA. I think that the websleuths forum has put way more effort and thought into finding Maura than the police have. This is not an insult to the police. Maura is just a missing person and there was no evidence of foul play. They put out a BOLO, put up some posters, and searched in the area around her car. They likely talked to family and friends, etc, but there is not a whole lot else they can do.

I think we sometimes overestimate what LE in this case actually knows. I do not think they know a whole heck of a lot more than we do.

Oh yeah and what the DA said about a 75% chance of arresting someone or whatever, take it from me, a fellow lawyer: this guy was just saying whatever the hell he felt like at the time to save his butt or to get the judge to decide in his favor. Notice he used "75%" Not 50%, not 95%...no he gave the perfect number to use when you have no idea what you are talking about, but want something to go your way all the same.

The DA in this case does not know any more than we do.

 

[scoops]

ITA. I think that the websleuths forum has put way more effort and thought into finding Maura than the police have. This is not an insult to the police. Maura is just a missing person and there was no evidence of foul play. They put out a BOLO, put up some posters, and searched in the area around her car. They likely talked to family and friends, etc, but there is not a whole lot else they can do.

I think we sometimes overestimate what LE in this case actually knows. I do not think they know a whole heck of a lot more than we do.

Oh yeah and what the DA said about a 75% chance of arresting someone or whatever, take it from me, a fellow lawyer: this guy was just saying whatever the hell he felt like at the time to save his butt or to get the judge to decide in his favor. Notice he used "75%" Not 50%, not 95%...no he gave the perfect number to use when you have no idea what you are talking about, but want something to go your way all the same.

The DA in this case does not know any more than we do.

I may be mistaken on this, but I don't think so. For much of this court proceeding the state sent someone to represent them (a female) that knew absolutely nothing about Maura's case, whose basic answer was always "I know nothing about this case in particular, but in cases similar to this, it is important that we keep certain evidence private as to not disrupt the investigation."

She was getting reamed by the judges and so was Strezlin when he finally got involved. Because they couldn't give more specifics. Just listening to it, you thought the ruling was going to go in Fred's favor and he would get everything released to him, but then the 75 percent comment came from nowhere.

 

[Fireweed]

So the DA (woman I guess) was just b.s.ing. I am sticking with my assumption that no one in LE or the DA's office knows of anything material in this case that we do not know.

 

[scoops]

So the DA (woman I guess) was just b.s.ing. I am sticking with my assumption that no one in LE or the DA's office knows of anything material in this case that we do not know.

I agree with you 100 percent --- but maybe not B.S ing.

She was speaking in generalities and the judges were wanting specifics.
That is where the frustration from the judges was coming from (By my interpretation) every time they wanted her to address something, she always returned to the same stock answer that (Paraphrasing) "in general, we can't disclose information because it might hinder our investigation."

 

[Fireweed]

What I mean by B.S.ing, is that I do not think they are really conducting "an investigation." They have a file with some papers and it sits there in the DAs office. Probably someone read it once years ago. Same goes for the police department.

I get the feeling they do not want to "disclose" anything because if their files were made public, we would all see how anemic their investigation is. The DA cannot disclose specifics because there are no specifics to disclose.

 

[scoops]

What I mean by B.S.ing, is that I do not think they are really conducting "an investigation." They have a file with some papers and it sits there in the DAs office. Probably someone read it once years ago. Same goes for the police department.

I get the feeling they do not want to "disclose" anything because if their files were made public, we would all see how anemic their investigation is. The DA cannot disclose specifics because there are no specifics to disclose.

exactly!

Although, I truly believe they do follow up any leads that get turned into them.

And quite frankly, with no evidence of foul play - which they have publically stated very consistently since the beginning - I don't really think they are dropping any ball when it comes to investigating this.

What Fred continues to bring up (even in the current day) is the lack of steps that they took that very night maura went missing. And to me that is telling.

Fred knows (IMO) that the window to find his daughter ALIVE was a small one and one that ended in just a few days after she went missing.

So as to fred acting a certain way to media or not seeming cooperative or not getting excited about billboards popping up about his daughter's case some 10 years later ... I honestly believe, he already knows the fate of his daughter, but of course he would still like her found one day.

 

[Lolacat]

If Maura died that night in the woods, then it does seem a bit odd that her body (or clothing) has never been found. She could not have gotten very far in the dark in the mountains.

I have always found this odd too. Now, I never expected they'd find a perfectly intact skeleton or anything like that but you'd think if she went running into the woods to kill herself (whilst intoxicated, dont forget) there would be some trace of her there. Eg, a bit of clothing, the backpack, empty vodka bottle etc, at least something.
I just find it VERY hard to believe that a distressed, intoxicated young girl wearing only trainers could climb that far up a mountain in the pitch black of night. Surely she can't have got that far KWIM?

 

[Fireweed]

I know Maura was in good shape, but there is only so fast you can travel on uneven ground, in the dark, which is covered in bushes and trees.

I also do not think that the cops dropped the ball. There is no evidence of foul play, and Maura was an adult. Besides, if Maura was out there to kill herself, then the police should do a search, but it is not like she was kidnapped or anything, and there is really only so far LE is going to go to prevent a suicide (for the time being).

 

[JamesRenner]

During the court proceedings in Fred's case, it came out that, in the course of their investigations, other criminal activity unrelated to Maura's disappearance was uncovered. This could be what they meant when referring to the 75%.

 

[OldSteve]

I have always found this odd too. Now, I never expected they'd find a perfectly intact skeleton or anything like that but you'd think if she went running into the woods to kill herself (whilst intoxicated, dont forget) there would be some trace of her there. Eg, a bit of clothing, the backpack, empty vodka bottle etc, at least something.
I just find it VERY hard to believe that a distressed, intoxicated young girl wearing only trainers could climb that far up a mountain in the pitch black of night. Surely she can't have got that far KWIM?

In a previous thread I did some checking into what phase the moon was in on that fateful night and found IIRC it was a few days or week past full. I don't know if it was cloudy or clear that night, but if clear there would have been some moonlight – but probably late rising... Figure it would have to be later at night before providing enough light to traverse going anywhere.

But as far as making run for it – as a night runners (wife and I), cannot see doing so without flashlight – too many stones and icy spots. Check the condition of the road after snowfall and plowing in the video back a few posts...

The question of whether she had a flashlight, or liked using one has never been answered.

Speaking of unanswered questions – AFAIK, her car was never really tested to see what condition it really was in.
I always thought if it was in really poor condition, backfiring or smoking, it could have attracted unwanted attention, akin to a shark discovering and following a wounded prey for some distance before moving in.

I've followed many cases and based on that I'd say she was taken – either willingly getting into someone's vehicle, or being struck and grabbed.

 

[BillNH]

During the court proceedings in Fred's case, it came out that, in the course of their investigations, other criminal activity unrelated to Maura's disappearance was uncovered. This could be what they meant when referring to the 75%.

I agree, they were not very specific. I even thought Fred's lawyer should have jumped on the ambiguity of the testimony. Landry said he thought it was likely that the investigation would result in criminal charges. Strezlin said the same and then OFFERED a percentage of likelihood that the case would lead to criminal charges, and no one bit on it. This was even AFTER it was disclosed that other criminal activity was uncovered during the course of the investigation. It was not until both lawyers were done with Strezlin that the judge asked Strezlin what percentage. And even then, no one felt the need to clarify if it was charges in her disappearance or charges for something else uncovered by the investigation of her disappearance. They did not even determine if the likely charges were felonies or misdemeanors. Sloppy work on all sides in the courtroom IMO.

I have always felt that the reason they fought Fred on this so hard was that Fred or someone close to him was implicated. Not necessarily in her disappearance, but for some sort of criminal activity for sure.

 

[neverletgo]

This topic gained brief attention three or four months ago when (I think) it was discussed on Sam Lenyard's blog. From my perspective, the details — and even the discussion of it — did not seem to make much practical sense, and never passed the smell test for me; another of those myriad possible clues/probable red herrings that get injected into the discussion before they are abruptly dropped when a more interesting "clue" emerges. But perhaps I am being too dismissive of the topic. Maybe Sam L. can sum it up here.

Here's some links re: the backpack KenShabby mentioned above if anyone's interested:

http://notwithoutperil.wordpress.com/2013/11/07/a-brief-clarification-of-the-backpack-discovery/

http://notwithoutperil.wordpress.co...hanks-me-but-declines-to-answer-the-question/

 

[BillNH]

So the DA (woman I guess) was just b.s.ing. I am sticking with my assumption that no one in LE or the DA's office knows of anything material in this case that we do not know.

Who received the other 2 polygraphs?
Who was wiretapped?
Who's tax records were looked at?
Who were the 250 people interviewed and what did they have to say?
Who got subpoenas? And for what?
Who's credit card info was pulled and why?

 

[Fireweed]

Those are interesting questions but after ten years and absolutely zero progress, I am going to have to assume that none of those things resulted in uncovering anything material that might solve this case.

 

[scoops]

Here was Lt. Landry's response at one of the court proceedings when asked this question:

Do you have an opinion as to whether this case is more likely than not to result in criminal charges?

Sgt. Landry

"This may lead to criminal charges. My experience says it could go either way."


Folks, that is not an answer.

If someone asks me when I wake up the next morning, is there going to be daylight?

And I respond "Well there may be daylight. In my experience, it could either be daylight or darkness. Guess what ... that is not an answer.

 

[Fireweed]

Do you have an opinion as to whether this case is more likely than not to result in criminal charges?

Sgt. Landry

"This may lead to criminal charges. My experience says it could go either way."

He did not even answer the question. The cops up there have no meaningful information in this case!

As to the polygraphs, my guess is that a couple of people who live in the area that were being questioned were getting really irritated by it and so LE said, "Look just take a polygraph, ok?" and so they did.

BTW one of the things that LE had (as per court docs from FM's suit), were printouts from this forum! If they knew that much more than we do, they would not have come here for assistance.

 

[BillNH]

He did not even answer the question. The cops up there have no meaningful information in this case!

As to the polygraphs, my guess is that a couple of people who live in the area that were being questioned were getting really irritated by it and so LE said, "Look just take a polygraph, ok?" and so they did.

BTW one of the things that LE had (as per court docs from FM's suit), were printouts from this forum! If they knew that much more than we do, they would not have come here for assistance.

My guess for a polygraph would be Fred and maybe CW.

Yes they had over 100 pages of this forum and you seem to see that as a smoking gun of sorts proving that LE knows nothing. I think they routinely check and record these types of forums for the same reason they videotape the people attending funerals of murder victims or taping the crowd that gathers to watch FD put out a suspicious fire. Some criminals like to inject themselves into some portion of the investigation or want to watch the results of their crime.