NJ NJ - Mindy Jordan, 46, missing from cruise ship off Atlantic City, 11 May 2008

[SuziQ]

http://www.myfoxphilly.com/myfox/pa...n=7&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1

Norwegian Cruise Lines says it's not sending a video that shows a Pine Hill woman falling from a ship to the woman's mother.

Spokeswoman AnnMarie Matthews says the video is being provided to authorities, but not to the media.

Matthews says video from a hallway shows Mindy Jordan was alone in her room, when an exterior camera shows her falling from her balcony's railing.

The camera did not show inside the balcony. (more at link)

 

[JBean]

Actually, this doesn't say that the rooms were adjoining. It does, however, specifically state that Mindy was alone when she fell. From the link:

"the video proves that she was alone at the time."

AND

"7:36 PM. Caputo left the cabin and went to join the other couple in their cabin next door. From that moment on, Mindy is alone in her stateroom."




I think we know they were in the room next door, but there are rooms on either side; their friends could have been in the room on the side that doesn't have an adjoining door. I can't find anything that says the 2 rooms were adjoining.

The argument could be made that 2 couples travelling together would choose the adjoining rooms; however, if they were, why did they repeatedly walk out into the hallway to visit one another? Why not just go through the adjoining doors?

I guess my biggest problem with this is not so much the door as the fact that this couple is said to be a friend of Mindy's (even by her family), but for the foul play theory to be true they would have to be lying and covering up their friend's murder. WHY???

I notice that many articles refer to the adjoining balconies. I think that is how the word adjoining got brought into this. You are right the friends could have been on either side.
I see this as a horrible accident and I feel bad for everyone.

 

[LinasK]

Okay, some theories have been running through my mind about this case all afternoon. Given what we know about the history of abuse in this relationship, if he can prove she was by herself, I can think of other reasons why she still might have gone overboard. 1) Perhaps he did find a way to lock her in the room and she was trying to escape, 2) taunting/coaxing- this is low priority, I don't really believe she'd do this for him, 3)they probably did have a fight or he threatened her upon returning to the room from dinner, which leads to 4) her committing suicide (being depressed stuck in the relationship).
Has anyone else ever considered these possibilities?


I can't see him as the grieving partner, he's acting too much like Scott Peterson. Who continues on a cruise when their loved one just died in front of them??? Also, apparently he waited 15 hours before contacting her poor mother!

 

[FlowerChild]

FC, just because something can't be seen doesn't mean it's not there. I want more info before I let "nice guy Jorge" off the hook.

I never said he was a "nice guy" - he obviously was or is abusive. I don't have any sympathy for a man who hits a woman BUT by the same token being abusive to Mindy in the past is a far cry from pitching her off a cruise ship balcony to her death...especially sine the FBI seems to believe that Jorge was in the room next door (with HER CLOSE FRIENDS) when Mindy fell. There is NO reason for the friends to LIE for Jorge and I still haven't heard a motive for Jorge to escalate from hitting Mindy to throwing her to her death after what was reported as a nice dinner with friends.

I doubt Jorge had ANY control over how long he had to remain on the ship - I am sure the FBI MADE Jorge stay on the ship till they felt they had interrogated him sufficiently - and as soon as they were done NCL arranged for him to fly home. In addition, the FBI probably did not let Jorge back into his room - if the cruise was full there aren't many comfortable options for a passenger who can no longer use their assigned room. I betcha Jorge left as soon as they allowed him to.

There is no way Jorge could have locked Mindy in the room from outside - isn't possible.

THE CRUISE LINE or the FBI could have asked Jorge to wait to notify Mindy's family. Initially she was just "missing" and they may have had a protocol for such an event. Again, I doubt ANY of the timing was Jorge's decision once Mindy was reported overboard.

Is there ANY report from any passenger or crew that Mindy and Jorge were fighting that evening (or at ANY TIME on the cruise)? Surely someone would have seen or heard something - especially Mindy's friends who were NEXT DOOR. Surely THEY would have heard a fight or yelling before Jorge came over.

And WHY is the FBI interested in determining Mindy's state of mind? Is there evidence that Mindy was taking anti-depressants or was in a depressed state? Or did they find other drugs in the room that might have indicated she wasn't thinking clearly? Since it's obvious the FBI isn't going to release the tape we have to assume they are SURE Mindy was alone and perhaps she appeared to JUMP from the balcony - not fall? Was Mindy the type to "threaten suicide" to get attention? Had she used that kind of drama to get everyone focused on her when she was feeling left out? Maybe she threatened to jump or climb to the other balcony to make Jorge come back to their room and then lost her balance and fell?

We'll know more once the FBI finishes the investigation - I just am not going to assume Jorge is guilty based on the timing of actions he likely had no control over. I have no idea if Jorge is grieving or how he feels - I would assume he is numb and in shock after being questioned by the FBI and having to repeat his story over and over. All we know for sure is that the FBI obviously found no grounds to arrest him so far... and unlike some LE agencies the FBI knows how to run an investigation AND interrogate suspects and witnesses.

My Opinion

 

[nanandjim]

I personally think that Jorge did go to the friends' room to set up his alibi. Mindy was already overboard. The friends are not going to be watching the time and know exactly when he went over there.

I think that Jorge is involved. It's way too suspicious for me, especially since this guy has an anger management problem. He probably did fight with Mindy, accusing her of flirting. That's how a guy like this is. He is about ultimate control.

I feel certain that he got away with murder. Good going, Jorge. Hope that you are proud of yourself.

I just don't understand why Mindy would stay with a guy like this; and I don't understand why she would agree to go on a cruise with him. I wouldn't trust him. That's just me.

 

[angelmom]

I personally think that Jorge did go to the friends' room to set up his alibi. Mindy was already overboard. The friends are not going to be watching the time and know exactly when he went over there.

I think that Jorge is involved. It's way too suspicious for me, especially since this guy has an anger management problem. He probably did fight with Mindy, accusing her of flirting. That's how a guy like this is. He is about ultimate control.

I feel certain that he got away with murder. Good going, Jorge. Hope that you are proud of yourself.

I just don't understand why Mindy would stay with a guy like this; and I don't understand why she would agree to go on a cruise with him. I wouldn't trust him. That's just me.

But how did he fix the cameras' timestamps? It wasn't just a minute or two that he was in the friends' room - it was 17 minutes! That's a long time. How could he know that they wouldn't go get her or ask about her.

And the friends apparently also said that she was fooling around on the balcony. Why would HER friends lie for him?

The friends are the part I can't get past. I just can't see why they would lie about their friend's murder, and the video sounds like it backs him up 100%. I have to trust that the FBI is not a bunch of idiots and they are seeing more than us. If there were an adjoining door, don't you think they'd think of that?

As for him staying on the cruise and not calling her family, ITA that he probably had no choice. What would you have thought if he hightailed it off the ship? (and how would he have gotten off?). I don't think they send in a helicopter just b/c someone is grieving. He had to continue to the next port where the FBI was waiting to investigate. I'm sure he waited hoping he would have news of them at least recovering her body. What a horrible thing to have to do to call her family, who he knows hate him, and tell them what happened. He must have been dreading it and putting it off as long as he could hold out hope. Even a nice guy would, and I don't think he's a nice guy!

 

[JBean]

I personally think that Jorge did go to the friends' room to set up his alibi. Mindy was already overboard. The friends are not going to be watching the time and know exactly when he went over there.

I think that Jorge is involved. It's way too suspicious for me, especially since this guy has an anger management problem. He probably did fight with Mindy, accusing her of flirting. That's how a guy like this is. He is about ultimate control.

I feel certain that he got away with murder. Good going, Jorge. Hope that you are proud of yourself.

I just don't understand why Mindy would stay with a guy like this; and I don't understand why she would agree to go on a cruise with him. I wouldn't trust him. That's just me.

Hi Nan. I think the times are documented through the surveillance tapes.

 

[SuziQ]

Suicide has occured to me, because it was plain suicidal to go on that deck to begin with. Any investigator is going to check out someone's frame of mind.

In a Fox vid and other articles I linked yesterday, the FBI agent said, IIRC, that while this does not appear to be a crime, they are far from done in their investigation. They have to now figure out what the evidence they have means. The video from outside the ship is very poor quality and does not show the inside of the deck. They also have to make sure the time stamps are in synch and use other investigative tools such as a polygraph. They have to determine what the placement of the fingerprints in the deck area means.

ETA: The fact that Jorge has not been named a suspect or been arrested means nothing to me. LE rarely does either until they have all the evidence in. There is just too much liability and puts a timeclock on their investigation. The FBI just had to pay a guy in Oregon for acting too quickly.

 

[SuziQ]

I think that Jorge is involved. It's way too suspicious for me, especially since this guy has an anger management problem. He probably did fight with Mindy, accusing her of flirting. That's how a guy like this is. He is about ultimate control.

And guys like that can go from happy to a punch in the face with no warning or argument at all.

 

[SuziQ]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,356288,00.html

(snip)
Mershon would not address the details of the case.
"What particularly was on her mind or took place on that balcony is not something we're prepared to discuss at this time," he told FOX News.
A cruise line spokeswoman did not immediately return an Associated Press phone call on Thursday.

 

[nanandjim]

Hi Nan. I think the times are documented through the surveillance tapes.

Hey JB - Are there cameras inside each of the cabins? Are do they just see him leaving the room and going next door? If so, how would he know that she went overboard? Why wouldn't he just assume that she stepped out of the room?

 

[SuziQ]

http://www.royalgazette.com/siftolo...le.jsp?articleId=7d8582f30030000&sectionId=48

NCL says this:
In a statement released last night, NCL said: "FBI representative Jim Margolin has confirmed to NCL and the media that the Bureau's preliminary investigation and review of the surveillance footage was consistent with the Company's timeline and understanding of the incident and at this time they do not believe that a crime has been committed."

The FBI says this:
An FBI assistant director, Mark Mershon, told Fox News yesterday that the video provided by the cruise line is not clean enough to determine exactly what happened, but "the information that we have acquired does not suggest a crime, but that is not definitive".

 

[Ntegrity]

Are there cameras inside each of the cabins?

If there are, I'll never cruise with Norwegian again. :blushing:

 

[eve]

Hey JB - Are there cameras inside each of the cabins? Are do they just see him leaving the room and going next door? If so, how would he know that she went overboard? Why wouldn't he just assume that she stepped out of the room?

Hi Nan,

I don't get this either! Where was he when he saw her falling and supposedly tried to help? How could he do that from the other stateroom? How could the video on one hand be "not clean enough to determine exactly what happened," when at the same time, they are so sure of the exact times he left the room, etc. It seems like there is contradictory information about the facts of this case.

Eve

 

[Rino]

Suicide has occured to me, because it was plain suicidal to go on that deck to begin with. Any investigator is going to check out someone's frame of mind.

In a Fox vid and other articles I linked yesterday, the FBI agent said, IIRC, that while this does not appear to be a crime, they are far from done in their investigation. They have to now figure out what the evidence they have means. The video from outside the ship is very poor quality and does not show the inside of the deck. They also have to make sure the time stamps are in synch and use other investigative tools such as a polygraph. They have to determine what the placement of the fingerprints in the deck area means.

ETA: The fact that Jorge has not been named a suspect or been arrested means nothing to me. LE rarely does either until they have all the evidence in. There is just too much liability and puts a timeclock on their investigation. The FBI just had to pay a guy in Oregon for acting too quickly.

I am embarassed to admit that I have done such a stupid thing once myself...a little giddy, tipsy or brave can make smart people do unbelievably stupd things.

I think it was an accident...

 

[JBean]

Hey JB - Are there cameras inside each of the cabins? Are do they just see him leaving the room and going next door? If so, how would he know that she went overboard? Why wouldn't he just assume that she stepped out of the room?

In my mind I have him next door , but the 2 of them are in communication out the balconies. he probably was aware that she was on the balcony especially if she was trying to get over there. I have it pictured that he could physically see her and perhaps when she slipped and hit some flashing or a part of the ship, she may have still been hanging on to the rail. he try to help in some way but couldn't and then she fell straight into the water.
This is just what I see in my minds eye and it explains how it was they knew she fell immediately and how she hit something but still fell straight in the water. I think there was an image ( in some people's minds)of her her falling a ways and hitting something, but I think if she did hit something it was right at the top where he could still try and grab her. But as it was she fell staright from the balcony into the water per the video.
IMO his location is not in question at all and this is an accident.

ETA: yes they do show him leaving the room and going next door and that story is confirmed by her friends where he was. Maybe she was handing him something or they were goofing around out the balcony and that's when she got the bright idea to just go next door that way.

 

[JBean]

http://www.royalgazette.com/siftolo...le.jsp?articleId=7d8582f30030000&sectionId=48

NCL says this:
In a statement released last night, NCL said: "FBI representative Jim Margolin has confirmed to NCL and the media that the Bureau's preliminary investigation and review of the surveillance footage was consistent with the Company's timeline and understanding of the incident and at this time they do not believe that a crime has been committed."

The FBI says this:
An FBI assistant director, Mark Mershon, told Fox News yesterday that the video provided by the cruise line is not clean enough to determine exactly what happened, but "the information that we have acquired does not suggest a crime, but that is not definitive".

Oh I missed this. Thanks for that update.

 

[Ntegrity]

If the FBI has concluded it was an accident, who am I to argue with that? I just can't in my wildest dreams imagine how it happened. Nothing makes any sense about the whole scenario.

 

[AlwaysShocked]

JBean: It has been so many years since I've cruised. There were no balconies way back when.
Is there a divider of some sort between the balconies? So that in order to get from the balcony of your cabin to the balcony of the next-door cabin, you would have to be out over the edge of the railing?

This was a ship at sea? Even on the large ships, when out at sea there are times when the ship "lurches" - you can be just walking down a hallway and you need to reach out and grab a railing. Or do they not have railings anymore?

The last cruises I ever took were Windjammer cruises. I liked the sailing better than the Loveboat style trip.

 

[SuziQ]

If the FBI has concluded it was an accident, who am I to argue with that? I just can't in my wildest dreams imagine how it happened. Nothing makes any sense about the whole scenario.

They did? The last I heard is the investigation is still ongoing with many questions still needing answers.