No English Required

[windovervocalcords]

Yeah - did you notice the quotes? And the mention that it was what cap said? Come on now - how much clearer do I have to make it that those were not my words, that I was quoting someone else? Yeesh!

I did not notice the quotes to be honest. I am not deliberately trying to provoke, only to report my honest reaction and ask for clarification, which you just gave me. Thank you.

Have a good day.

 

[czechmate7]

Hey..i loved the Speedy Gonzalas cartoons just as much as the next guy..but I dont think it belongs in this conversation..infact I have Speedy glasses from a pepsi promotion sitting where I can see them while on the puter..but not in this conversation would I bring the cartoon up..:hand:

Sorry, misunderstood...I thought "Who could dislike Speedy!!!!"
But how do you feel about the issues I brought up earlier about someone suing for not being allowed to take the drivers test in Spanish or the families protesting in S Florida for not being allowed to take the FCAT in Spanish (a test that needs to be passed in Florida in order to graduate high school)? Just wondering your views....

 

[Nova]

Every city and every school that has Adult Ed classes offer ESL for free so there is no excuse not to at least make an effort to learn the language..

I don't know about New York, but in the Southwest, there are often long waits for those places. This is not to say immigrants shouldn't learn English, just to continue to point out it's easier said than done (particularly for some people).

 

[Details]

When you met them, how did you determine that they don't know English because they REFUSED to learn?

Language aptitudes vary widely. Opportunity for immersion in English varies, too, if one lives in a "ghetto" of people who commonly speak another language.

Even if they TOLD you they REFUSED to learn English, how would know that is true?

The older the student the more difficult it is to learn. (This has been demonstrated by studies, statistics and personal experience.) If you are an adult trying to function in a language you don't speak well, you are turned into a de facto child by your inability to communicate. (This is one reason why I don't speak Spanish regularly with my bilingual friends. We don't normally want to carry on conversations at the 5 or 6-year-old level where my knowledge of Spanish puts me.)

Frankly, even if you locate the few adult immigrants who supposedly "refuse" to speak English, I suspect you will have a group who can't speak English and are ashamed of that fact. It better serves their pride to say they REFUSE, rather than admitting they can't.

Possible. Although there does seem to be an arrogant attitude present, a sense that this is now our community (read Barn Goddesses' posts "I was told repeatedly to go back where I came from, this was their town now and I had no place there.", for some pretty explicit statements of that) - it could still be hiding an incapability to learn English, or poor English they'd rather not show. Still, refusing to help someone in English.... it just doesn't sit well. Expecting everything to go in Spanish - again, just doesn't sit well.

Everyone here agrees that immigrants should learn to speak English. But some posters insist on attributing poor English skills to willful negligence on the part of immigrants. It's interesting that few, if any, of those posters seem to be functionally bilingual themselves.

Hmmm - I think you're generalizing quite broadly here. First, I don't think everyone here does agree that immigrants should learn to speak English - but maybe they do. Second - you should never be too sure about what posters know. Yes, I am functionally bilingual - it's a bit bare, but I can get by in Spanish. I have had occasion to - when I was working in a shop, I had no problem exposing my feeble Spanish to help out a client who didn't speak any English. For one customer, we had a fun arrangement - I spoke English and she spoke Spanish. We both understood enough to understand what was said, but, of course, speaking it was harder (I hadn't had as much Spanish at the time).

 

[Nova]

Sorry, misunderstood...I thought "Who could dislike Speedy!!!!"
But how do you feel about the issues I brought up earlier about someone suing for not being allowed to take the drivers test in Spanish or the families protesting in S Florida for not being allowed to take the FCAT in Spanish (a test that needs to be passed in Florida in order to graduate high school)? Just wondering your views....

I know you're not asking me, but I think these are much more difficult questions than whether immigrants are simply refusing to speak English.

Whether the FCAT should be given at all is one thing, but as long as it is, I think it should probably be given in English only. For the sake of the students themselves.

As for the driver's test, it would be easy to agree in principle that it should be in English only. But in reality and since drivers who can't get a license tend to drive without one, it may be better for society as a whole to have drivers who know the rules of the road in whatever language they know.

 

[Nova]

Second - you should never be too sure about what posters know.

I would never presume to underestimate your knowledge, D. I just wouldn't.

 

[Details]

I know you're not asking me, but I think these are much more difficult questions than whether immigrants are simply refusing to speak English.

Whether the FCAT should be given at all is one thing, but as long as it is, I think it should probably be given in English only. For the sake of the students themselves.

As for the driver's test, it would be easy to agree in principle that it should be in English only. But in reality and since drivers who can't get a license tend to drive without one, it may be better for society as a whole to have drivers who know the rules of the road in whatever language they know.

As long as you know what the signs mean, and what the rules are - I don't think much knowledge of English is needed - given that you can understand enough for construction signs to work. If "Merge Left" is understood, even by rote, then that should be plenty. Hopefully the drivers booklet can help out with that much.

Yeah, for the students sake, the more English is emphasized, the better - and that's generally what most spanish speaking families tend to want too (according to polls taken when California was considering getting rid of the bilingual education mess we had at the time that just wasn't working).

 

[Details]

I would never presume to underestimate your knowledge, D. I just wouldn't.

:blushing: Yours either. But you never know about anyone - "on the web, no one knows I'm a dog", as the old cartoon goes.

 

[reb]

<Yes, there are words for that: unusual and rare.>

but not as rare as you think... and becoming less and less rare as time goes on.

 

[windovervocalcords]

Possible. Although there does seem to be an arrogant attitude present, a sense that this is now our community (read Barn Goddesses' posts "I was told repeatedly to go back where I came from, this was their town now and I had no place there.", for some pretty explicit statements of that) - it could still be hiding an incapability to learn English, or poor English they'd rather not show. Still, refusing to help someone in English.... it just doesn't sit well. Expecting everything to go in Spanish - again, just doesn't sit well. Hmmm - I think you're generalizing quite broadly here. First, I don't think everyone here does agree that immigrants should learn to speak English - but maybe they do. Second - you should never be too sure about what posters know. Yes, I am functionally bilingual - it's a bit bare, but I can get by in Spanish. I have had occasion to - when I was working in a shop, I had no problem exposing my feeble Spanish to help out a client who didn't speak any English. For one customer, we had a fun arrangement - I spoke English and she spoke Spanish. We both understood enough to understand what was said, but, of course, speaking it was harder (I hadn't had as much Spanish at the time).

One person (Barngoddess) tells a story and then posters use this anecdote as justification for their biased view that a broad group of spanish speaking people are behaving arrogantly and refuse to speak english.

 

[reb]

and *i* still can't believe there is even an argument over whether people should be allowed to move here without citizenship or making any effort to be legal, or learn our main language!... much less get a job at a major airport...


???????????

 

[windovervocalcords]

What on earth constitutes an effort to learn the language to folks?

 

[reb]

well first things first.. we should not be letting people in here to live, have long-temr jobs, buy homes, etc.. until they pass a citizenship test- which should show some mastery of english. but that's dead in the water now-- so, if people are going to live here illegally and have access to all the social services (that many legal citizens don't even have access to-- such as free health care). then you should at least make an attempt. as penelope said, there are free ESL classes everywhere. i once tutored a young mexican girl who spoke english and her parents (who could not) expressed a desire to learn. i directed them to the list of classes at the library.. and in cases like this, the parents probably learn from the child.

but--- the airport issue--- that's a whole different can of worms. it's bad enough that most restaurants, construction sites, etc.. are full of illegals (jobs that legal citizens of any race would be happy ot have)-- and there are often communication problems. but an AIRPORT??? sorry------- no.

 

[Nova]

One person (Barngoddess) tells a story and then posters use this anecdote as justification for their biased view that a broad group of spanish speaking people are behaving arrogantly and refuse to speak english.

Try shopping on Rodeo Drive, particularly while dressed in torn jeans and a t-shirt. Immigrants aren't the only people who can be rude...

 

[Nova]

and *i* still can't believe there is even an argument over whether people should be allowed to move here without citizenship or making any effort to be legal, or learn our main language!... much less get a job at a major airport...


???????????

I think it depends on the job, reb. As I said, air traffic controllers already have to speak English. The cleaning crew? Not so much.

 

[Details]

One person (Barngoddess) tells a story and then posters use this anecdote as justification for their biased view that a broad group of spanish speaking people are behaving arrogantly and refuse to speak english.

You keep missing this - maybe I can be clearer this time. First off - it's not just her story, but hers is a good clear example. But more importantly - I've said several times, the problem I have is with you saying this is a myth - as in, it doesn't exist anywhere. If it is a myth, it means that there is not one single person who has arrogantly chosen not to learn English. It's not a myth if one person like that exists.

Calling it a myth is inaccurate - that most immigrants refuse to learn English is a myth, that some do is true.

It's a small point, but it's important, because if you say that what people have seen with their own eyes is a myth, then you call them liars (or at best, deluded) I mean, if I said I'd seen a unicorn with my own eyes, and you say they are a myth, what's the obvious conclusion. I'm lying about seeing a unicorn, or I was hallucinating, or some such.


Now - as to the rest - 25% are not learning English even after a full decade here in this country - I do think there is some problem there. And, that's according to pro-immigration, pro-immigrant stats. As some of us have stated, you go to some areas of the country, and it's a lot worse than that.

 

[2sisters]

You keep missing this - maybe I can be clearer this time. First off - it's not just her story, but hers is a good clear example. But more importantly - I've said several times, the problem I have is with you saying this is a myth - as in, it doesn't exist anywhere. If it is a myth, it means that there is not one single person who has arrogantly chosen not to learn English. It's not a myth if one person like that exists.

Calling it a myth is inaccurate - that most immigrants refuse to learn English is a myth, that some do is true.

It's a small point, but it's important, because if you say that what people have seen with their own eyes is a myth, then you call them liars (or at best, deluded) I mean, if I said I'd seen a unicorn with my own eyes, and you say they are a myth, what's the obvious conclusion. I'm lying about seeing a unicorn, or I was hallucinating, or some such.


Now - as to the rest - 25% are not learning English even after a full decade here in this country - I do think there is some problem there. And, that's according to pro-immigration, pro-immigrant stats. As some of us have stated, you go to some areas of the country, and it's a lot worse than that.

Nobody is missing it, they just want to twist what you are saying and discredit it

 

[windovervocalcords]

Nobody is missing it, they just want to twist what you are saying and discredit it

I do not appreciate that you are saying I am trying to twist or discredit anyone.

 

[windovervocalcords]

You keep missing this - maybe I can be clearer this time. First off - it's not just her story, but hers is a good clear example. But more importantly - I've said several times, the problem I have is with you saying this is a myth - as in, it doesn't exist anywhere. If it is a myth, it means that there is not one single person who has arrogantly chosen not to learn English. It's not a myth if one person like that exists.

Calling it a myth is inaccurate - that most immigrants refuse to learn English is a myth, that some do is true.

It's a small point, but it's important, because if you say that what people have seen with their own eyes is a myth, then you call them liars (or at best, deluded) I mean, if I said I'd seen a unicorn with my own eyes, and you say they are a myth, what's the obvious conclusion. I'm lying about seeing a unicorn, or I was hallucinating, or some such.


Now - as to the rest - 25% are not learning English even after a full decade here in this country - I do think there is some problem there. And, that's according to pro-immigration, pro-immigrant stats. As some of us have stated, you go to some areas of the country, and it's a lot worse than that.

Perhaps we misunderstand each other on what we consider to be a "myth". I do not consider "myth" to have no basis in fact. I consider myth to be exaggeration.

I have not called anyone a liar here. I do not appreciate you characterizing my posts as saying so.

 

[2sisters]

I do not appreciate that you are saying I am trying to twist or discredit anyone.

Who said I was talking about you for one thing? I never said any names and from here that's what it looks like people are doing to the posters who want immigrints to learn english. Sorry, but thats the view I have from here.