No English Required

[julianne]

Please, dear God, read some history before you try and have a discussion.

:banghead:

Merry Christmas to you too, Karole28. You have a FANTASTIC day.

I've read plenty on history, sorry you didn't like my synopsis.....too bad.

Maybe YOU should read up on etiquette, and possibly find whatever it is within you that makes you come to a thread only to post insults and attempt to demean other posters. Post something of worth. We don't want to know your opinion of other posters, just your opinion on the thread subject. You do it time and time again. Refocus your negative energy and figure out something else to do that makes you feel good inside. I can refer you to many charities that need a helping hand...

I really meant it when I said have a fantastic day---I think you really need it, and quickly, dear God!

 

[cappuccina]

...sometimes the holidays make mean people even meaner...

Don't worry about her...

 

[2sisters]

Websleuths brings out the love in all of us. I can feel it everytime I enter.

 

[Marstan]

That is a thoughtful response. Thank you. The other question I have is when people who live near a large population of folks who speak spanish and don't choose to learn some spanish, would they also be considered arrogant?

The word arrogant is a big deal to me. So is the assumption that people who move here from Mexico do not have interest in learning to speak english because there are spanish interpreters available.

I come to this perspective as a person who has worked with the poor most of my life. If there weren't interpreters I would have been lost a long time ago because of all the different cultural groups I have worked with. I could not have learned all those languages to help people.

My feeling is people are all the same. Some good, some not, and most of us a combination.

Wind, the people who use farm workers (for instance) do speak Spanish, fluently! Their foremen also speak both languages. Once again the word "arrogance" but perhaps in this situation it is a good word, but it ties in with my last long post. The language our farmers in the SW speak is GREEN, it all comes down to money. The difference is if you are willing to work or not but it all comes down to green.

We employ many bi-lingual people from Mexico and they have immigrated and learned the language and work for a living. I have been totally surprised at the outlook of legal immigrants (from Mexico) who have busted butt to learn the language and support their families and pay taxes - they don't want the illegals over here competing with their green. Amazing what happens when folks begin paying taxes (green again).

I have to go finish my shopping and fight my battle at the UPS store - this thread has been very interesting - a learning experience please be gentle on us hardheaded folks. :banghead:

 

[BhamMama]

I have been totally surprised at the outlook of legal immigrants (from Mexico) who have busted butt to learn the language and support their families and pay taxes - they don't want the illegals over here competing with their green. Amazing what happens when folks begin paying taxes (green again).

I've found the same thing! I was standing in line at the store the other day and heard the people behind me talking about this very subject. When I glanced back I was amazed that the person talking about how all these illegals should go home was Mexican! We've had a lot of workers move in since Katrina. I understand why they are here and I have no issues one way or the other. But he certainly did!

So far I really haven't seen where they (the illegals) have taken food or jobs from anyone here. Everyone has the same options for the job. They stand on a corner and day laborers pick them up for a song. They are certainly doing jobs that no one else would want...at a pay no one else would take. Not totally their fault. If the contractor would choose to pay more, others might want it. Some will cut their noses off to spite their faces though. Work for lesser wages or not work at all....sadly, they choose to not work at all and then bemoan the fact that someone else will take that wage.

 

[cappuccina]

...the comments on people spouting off about "immigrants"...we are ALL immigrants...

I would really like to hear a Native American poster's point of view on this...

 

[czechmate7]

I've found the same thing! I was standing in line at the store the other day and heard the people behind me talking about this very subject. When I glanced back I was amazed that the person talking about how all these illegals should go home was Mexican! We've had a lot of workers move in since Katrina. I understand why they are here and I have no issues one way or the other. But he certainly did!

So far I really haven't seen where they (the illegals) have taken food or jobs from anyone here. Everyone has the same options for the job. They stand on a corner and day laborers pick them up for a song. They are certainly doing jobs that no one else would want...at a pay no one else would take. Not totally their fault. If the contractor would choose to pay more, others might want it. Some will cut their noses off to spite their faces though. Work for lesser wages or not work at all....sadly, they choose to not work at all and then bemoan the fact that someone else will take that wage.

How true Mama.......They bust butt to support their families, it's sad in a way that contractors know that they can take advantage of them. Did you hear what Nagin said about them being in NO to help clean up?

"make sure NO doesn't get overrun by mexican workers" http://www.hispanicbusiness.com/news/newsbyid.asp?id=26340

(I know this is a little off subject, but the article actually gives some data about immigrants in the US.....)

 

[2sisters]

How true Mama.......They bust butt to support their families, it's sad in a way that contractors know that they can take advantage of them. Did you hear what Nagin said about them being in NO to help clean up? (I know this is a little off subject, but the article actually gives some data about immigrants in the US.....)

Didn't he also say something about the jobs needed to go to local blacks or something and basically keep the mexicans out of New Orleans?

 

[2sisters]

How true Mama.......They bust butt to support their families, it's sad in a way that contractors know that they can take advantage of them. Did you hear what Nagin said about them being in NO to help clean up? (I know this is a little off subject, but the article actually gives some data about immigrants in the US.....)

It is also the cleaning industry. My sis lives in MD and her friends think she is crazy b/c she has a national chain cleaning service clean her house. Her friends all have dirt cheap mexican women doing it. They think she s crazy b/c it costs 100 bucks to get the cleaning service to come in when the mexican women do it for 10-20 bucks. top to bottom, toilets, laundry, the works.

 

[Nova]

Nova, I know this because I live very near the border. My children go to school with the children and I meet the parents. If I did not actually experience it first hand, I would not comment, unless I was doing statistics. I am not being sarcastic. I have been in the emergency rooms, courts, and schools in my area and I suppose the way I know this is because I experience it every day.

I, too, live within 100 miles of the border and have for over 2 decades. (Before that I lived in South Florida and New York City. I have never lived anywhere BUT cities with great linguisitic diversity.) Yes, I encounter people who can't speak English very well. I encounter them every day.

But you made the leap that such people are REFUSING to speak English. I'd like to know your evidence for that conclusion.

As I said above, even if someone actually claims s/he refuses to speak English, that statement may just be a way to avoid admitting s/he just can't.

 

[BarnGoddess]

ICE yesterday raided Swift & Co in Greeley, Co.
Illegals rounded up. UNC students protest
Many illegal workers had stolen ID's from US citizens.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/

And now we're supposed to be the bad guys here, huh?
I sure hope you haven't lost your ID lately.

 

[czechmate7]

ICE yesterday raided Swift & Co in Greeley, Co.
Illegals rounded up. UNC students protest
Many illegal workers had stolen ID's from US citizens.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/

And now we're supposed to be the bad guys here, huh?
I sure hope you haven't lost your ID lately.

I'm sure when Pedro is standing in front of "boss man" with John Smith's name on his ID, willing to work for 1/2 the price John Smith will work for "Boss man" will turn him away or better yet turn him into the authorities for having a stolen ID...don't see that happening. (IMO, of course)

 

[Nova]

This is utter horsesh*t.

Nobody believes the "South will rise again" nonsense. Most in the south were too poor to own slaves, and were their own slaves in the fields. There were more slaves owned in the northern states than in the southern.

And indeed, the war was not about slavery (Lincoln didn't care overly much one way or another about this issue). It was about the South not wanting their tax dollars spent on Northern cities while they were left to rot. (See Cananda modern age).

Jeezus. This self perpetuating myth is SOOOO old.

Karole, it is certainly true that the reasons for the War Between the States were many and complex. And it is certainly true that most white Southerners in 1860 were of the "poor yeoman" class and did not own slaves.

And, yes, Lincoln said he would have maintained slavery if that would have kept the Union together.

But it is also true that most Southerners (like most other people) fought to preserve their way of life. To the wealthy, that meant keeping their slaves. To the poor, that often meant - at least in part - preventing black slaves from suddenly competing for wage labor and/or avoiding the spectre of "black domination," something they had been warned would happen if the slaves were freed.

It isn't true that slavery was the sole cause of the conflict, but it is equally disingenuous to pretend that racial issues weren't a significant factor.

(I agree that the concept of the South rising again is at best symbolic and, nowadays, not a separatist sentiment. But where did you get the statistic that more slaves were owned in the North in 1860? You must be counting border states (hardly fair) or using some Marxist definition whereby "slavery" includes all wage earners.)

 

[Karole28]

Karole, it is certainly true that the reasons for the War Between the States were many and complex. And it is certainly true that most white Southerners in 1860 were of the "poor yeoman" class and did not own slaves.

And, yes, Lincoln said he would have maintained slavery if that would have kept the Union together.

But it is also true that most Southerners (like most other people) fought to preserve their way of life. To the wealthy, that meant keeping their slaves. To the poor, that often meant - at least in part - preventing black slaves from suddenly competing for wage labor and/or avoiding the spectre of "black domination," something they had been warned would happen if the slaves were freed.

Check out some statistics on just now many southerners were "wealthy" back then. Everyone I know of were farmers, scrabbling to eek out a living. (also check statistics about how hard the south was hit during the Wall Street crash in the great Depression. Most didn't notice it. Who could afford to invest?

It isn't true that slavery was the sole cause of the conflict, but it is equally disingenuous to pretend that racial issues weren't a significant factor.

A significant factor, please highlight this, I didn't say slavery wasn't a FACTOR.

Can you imagine how maddening it is to know that most people get their history from Schoolhouse Rocks, and the Dukes of Hazard? It's the height of ignorance. The South has always been ok to denigrate. Wanna stereotype someone? Pick anyone south of the Mason Dixon line. They're fair game. Wanna talk about ANY other segment of society? Hands off.

(I agree that the concept of the South rising again is at best symbolic and, nowadays, not a separatist sentiment.

For separatists, see Texas. There's nothing wrong with that. But if you think Luke and Bo Duke are screaming down our highways with the rebel flag flying high, vowing to punish all yankees, please turn off your TVs and venture out of your own damned yards once in a while.

But where did you get the statistic that more slaves were owned in the North in 1860? You must be counting border states (hardly fair) or using some Marxist definition whereby "slavery" includes all wage earners.)

Professor Berlin pointed out that "New York City in the 17th and 18th centuries was the largest slave-holding city on the North American continent. There were more slaves in New York than in Charleston or New Orleans. Slaves made up a quarter of New York’s population at various times. . . . New York had slave auctions and slave whipping posts and slave rebellions. . . . there were over 10,000 slaves in New York in the third decade of the 19th century."

Click

 

[Details]

...the comments on people spouting off about "immigrants"...we are ALL immigrants...

I would really like to hear a Native American poster's point of view on this...

Welll...... my husband is part Native American - and he's definitely no friend of illegal immigrants. They got overrun by them once, no desire to have it happen again!

 

[Details]

....Professor Berlin pointed out that "New York City in the 17th and 18th centuries was the largest slave-holding city on the North American continent. There were more slaves in New York than in Charleston or New Orleans. Slaves made up a quarter of New York’s population at various times. . . . New York had slave auctions and slave whipping posts and slave rebellions. . . . there were over 10,000 slaves in New York in the third decade of the 19th century."

Click

That's a very, very bad stat, and while I'm trying to stay on topic - come on now. just because two Northern cities had more slaves than two Southern cities does not mean there were more slaves in the North than in the South! That's a perfect example of how statistics are used to lie. What you said was completely not supported by this statistic.

 

[Karole28]

They got overrun by them once, no desire to have it happen again!

Bwahahaha! This should be on a t-shirt!

 

[Details]

ICE yesterday raided Swift & Co in Greeley, Co.
Illegals rounded up. UNC students protest
Many illegal workers had stolen ID's from US citizens.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/

And now we're supposed to be the bad guys here, huh?
I sure hope you haven't lost your ID lately.

I saw - whooo hooo! Interesting they didn't involve local police - afraid of a tip-off? Quite likely, I bet some of them knew, had friends and relatives, and would have spread the word.

 

[Karole28]

That's a very, very bad stat, and while I'm trying to stay on topic - come on now. just because two Northern cities had more slaves than two Southern cities does not mean there were more slaves in the North than in the South! That's a perfect example of how statistics are used to lie. What you said was completely not supported by this statistic.

Last I checked New York City is located in New York State which is a northern city, nez pas?

From the quoted portion YOU quoted: New York City in the 17th and 18th centuries was the largest slave-holding city on the North American continent.

 

[Details]

Last I checked New York City is located in New York State which is a northern city, nez pas?

From the quoted portion YOU quoted: New York City in the 17th and 18th centuries was the largest slave-holding city on the North American continent.

Yes, which says nothing at all about how many slaves the North had versus the South. Especially since a historian such as yourself should know that slaves in the North were used in manufacturing, which was concentrated in cities, and slaves in the South were used in agriculture, which is spread all over.

Had you read my post, you might have noted where I defined that we were talking about a Northern city? Why the need to restate the only thing we do agree on, nez pas?

Not, by the way, that it matters how many slaves the North had, when they were banning slavery - obviously those slaves were no longer slaves at that point (at least, not legally). And the South was emphatically NOT banning slavery. That's a big difference - changes the North's total to zero.