Norway Norway - Isdalen, WhtFem 503UFNOR, multiple aliases, multilingual, Nov'70

[Novosti]

If she was involved in international intelligence, them her approach was remarkably sloppy. Her dress, behaviour, multiple identities (too many), and poor English and German all draw attention. And if the target was missile activity, she seemed to have no obvious technical expertise or technical equipment to provide actionable material. So it seems unlikely she held a senior staff position for a major country - they were too professional, budget-conscious and cautious to flounce around like this!

This points to Vasiliev's idea that she held quite a junior role, but perhaps had pretensions above that (hence the flamboyance). Or was part of a sloppier outer ecosystem of private organisations, academics, criminal gangs, private detectives etc that would sometimes be tasked at arms-length from official agencies.

 

[Richard]

51 Years Ago....


Unidentified "Isdalen Woman"
Found dead in November 1970

 

[Doeologist]

If she was involved in international intelligence, them her approach was remarkably sloppy. Her dress, behaviour, multiple identities (too many), and poor English and German all draw attention. And if the target was missile activity, she seemed to have no obvious technical expertise or technical equipment to provide actionable material. So it seems unlikely she held a senior staff position for a major country - they were too professional, budget-conscious and cautious to flounce around like this!

This points to Vasiliev's idea that she held quite a junior role, but perhaps had pretensions above that (hence the flamboyance). Or was part of a sloppier outer ecosystem of private organisations, academics, criminal gangs, private detectives etc that would sometimes be tasked at arms-length from official agencies.

I think Vasiliev, as ex-KGB, knows his stuff and his idea could be very helpful.

What do you think about the possibility that the Isdal Woman was a person of European royal heritage? They would have a lot of time and money on their hand and might still want to engage with the new ruling classes.

 

[MarziPanda]

I think Vasiliev, as ex-KGB, knows his stuff and his idea could be very helpful.

What do you think about the possibility that the Isdal Woman was a person of European royal heritage? They would have a lot of time and money on their hand and might still want to engage with the new ruling classes.

I think that's unlikely - the kind of royal who has a lot of time and money ('lower' royals almost always have fairly normal jobs) would be well connected and well documented and would be reported missing. Not impossible, but I think unlikely.

 

[John/Jane Doe]

503UFNOR

 

[worldwatcher]

503UFNOR

Read it (again?)
From my collection, only thought to be reading that she had a lot of sleeping pills in her system, now I know it was :
Fenemal
For Indications as:
Epilepsy , in grand mal, especially awakening and falling asleep seizures, focal motor and focal sensory seizures .
Fenemal «Orifarm Healthcare» - Felleskatalogen
Barbiturate (Barbiturater) - Bloges.wiki

The history of barbiturates a century after their clinical introduction
Bayer - comes to mind..

There is a book - female on fire
by Paul Werner

 

[mogs me]

A community discussed the possible phenotype of the Isdal woman, and they have voted as such:

In ascending order (poll option names removed as they were unprofessional-looking) the options were:

Anglo-Saxon
Germanic
Scandinavian
Slavic
South-west European
Balkan
Jewish
Non-European

27 people voted in total, with the majority (14) voting Slavic.

Here's what the community had to say about her:

 

[Cattydcat]

I have just belatedly listened to the BBC podcast series Death in Ice Valley about this case and it is all absolutely fascinating. However, I feel like I am stating the really obvious here but DNA is available and given the success people have had with identifying via DNA, this case is solvable? I realise it might not lead to answering all the questions regarding her occupation etc etc but the fact that they have the DNA but are choosing not to go down that root, (for legal reasons maybe in Norway?) it just leads me to believe that they don't want it solved for some reason? Am I being simplistic?

 

[Susikatze]

Personality rights in Europe are very strict and include genetic testing. And even if they were allowed to upload her profile into a commercial DNA database, those are commonly USA based, which poses another issue with European data protection laws as personal genetic data of someone are given to the USA. That also includes deceased persons.
And even if they would do that, most folks who test with the commercial companies are USA based and if the UID is European, there will not be any close matches.

 

[Susikatze]

Read it (again?)
From my collection, only thought to be reading that she had a lot of sleeping pills in her system, now I know it was :
Fenemal
For Indications as:
Epilepsy , in grand mal, especially awakening and falling asleep seizures, focal motor and focal sensory seizures .
Fenemal «Orifarm Healthcare» - Felleskatalogen
Barbiturate (Barbiturater) - Bloges.wiki

The history of barbiturates a century after their clinical introduction
Bayer - comes to mind..

There is a book - female on fire
by Paul Werner

It is Luminal. Antiepileptic and anti anxiety med.

 

[MarziPanda]

UIDs from outside of the US have had some close matches in the past, so it's not outside of the realm of possibility - it's also possible to get IDs with lower matches. The data protection laws would likely stop them going this route for now, though.

 

[Cattydcat]

UIDs from outside of the US have had some close matches in the past, so it's not outside of the realm of possibility - it's also possible to get IDs with lower matches. The data protection laws would likely stop them going this route for now, though.

I think it is a possibility that this would solve the identity issue but I guess if that's not the route the Norwegian authorities wish to go down, then it's unlikely to be solved. After listening to the podcast, and the views of the ex KGB guy, my gut feel is that Isdal woman was part of the check forging / cashing gang. It would explain the bad passports etc.

 

[Mrs. Badcrumble]

I was in contact with Kripos (among others) last autumn due to my work at the time, and they told me Kripos is open to using forensic genealogy to solve old criminal cases, and they are in the process of investigating the possibilities of doing this, but according to their assessment report (still in the writing/research stage, not published yet), the method will primarily be used in unresolved criminal cases - not for identification purposes. Since they are both officially ruled as suicides (AFAIK), it seems like we'll have to wait a bit longer for the Isdal woman and Jennifer Fergate's identifications, but, on the other hand, perhaps other unsolved cases where biological material exists will be resolved, if the legislation allows the police to use the method.

 

[Cupofcare]

I was stuck on the spy theory for a while, but somehow came back to the check fraud group theory. It could more easily explain her sheer number of passports / identities & her multiple short stays in various countries and cities. I noticed one of her identities was Vera and there actually was a Vera in the check fraud group ( Vera Maria Caldas Lima ). Im not saying they were the same person, obviously, just thinking the name kind of lingered. Like Vera, Isdal Woman was an attractive , well-dressed female. It occurred to me Isdal Woman's charisma & presentable, fashionable appearance could've caused the group to recruit her. Her connections to Italy are of particular interest as that was the check group's base, more specifically Rome. As she had met with an Italian photographer, liked Italian clothing and had traveled to Rome apparently. Remember, if she was frequently on guard & hiding in her hotel rooms, the last thing she would do would be to have dinner with a complete stranger ( the Italian ). More likely she probably knew this individual pretty well. Though she might have committed suicide it is unsettling that she was seen with so many men on her travels yet none came forward. They're always just ghostly figures in the background and it comes off as shifty. But then if we consider she was probably in the check fraud group, then it makes sense she was meeting with all these men. They probably gave her instructions, fake passports, forms, $$ etc on her journeys. The check group seemed especially attached to Bergen/Oslo, so it makes sense there could've been a whole "nest" of her contacts there. The irony is the comment that she seemed "so confident in traveling alone", while more likely she had contacts advising & monitoring her at every corner of her travels. Also she told someone she was an "antiques dealer" & interestingly that's exactly what a convicted check fraud leader claimed his profession was too.

 

[Cupofcare]

Fact & fiction kinda got mixed up in this case. One source said no witnesses mentioned the gap in her front teeth, another source said it was mentioned by witnesses. Similarly I think facts regarding her interactions with German navy officers got mixed up...one source said "she just sat next to two German officers without interacting with them". Another source said that "With sad eyes, silently, she slid a piece of paper to a German officer in the restaurant." Looking back it occurs to me this piece of paper was probably a check / transaction evidence, and the man probably not a navy officer or pretending to be one. I do believe Isdal Woman got herself caught up with the "Italian Mafia" somehow. I think she really was a very confident woman, to the point where she maybe started to cheat them with the checks, taking a bit more $$ for herself here & there. She I think believed her charisma could carry her through, save her from the wrath of the Mafia. But I think not, I think they discarded her on the mountain, she seemed absolutely discarded there, I can't imagine anyone, certainly not a woman so confident & stylish, doing that to herself. As a bonus read, I believe I did actually meet the Italian mob years ago in a small town. It was a public holiday and there were these 2 Italian men looking for a train station. Their accents were 100% Italian , they had black hair etc. There was literally not a single soul in the streets , just me & these two foreigners. The one had sunglasses on ( it was completely overcast that day ) and a small silver ( metal ) briefcase. It was December 25! I still said Merry Christmas to them and they replied back Merry Christmas to me Can't imagine what they were up to, but it seemed shady as all hell.

 

[John/Jane Doe]

503UFNOR

 

[phantomstrider]

I think identifying her will be very hard due to restrictions on using genealogy databases in europe.

 

[Vi0l3tt3]

I thought about the possibility that she was suffering from paranoid schizophrenia, hence the wigs and fake passports. What if mental illness lead her to believe that she was being targeted or followed? I don't know how difficult it would have been to get fake passports.

 

[Triss]

I don't know how difficult it would have been to get fake passports.

Definitely easier than today.
I'm also under the impression that the reason for all the passports and makeovers was because she was being followed. My guess is she was running away from a former partner, but the idea that it could've been imaginary danger triggered by mental illness is certainly possible and intriguing.

 

[MrsWattle]

I've come here because a few websleuths on the Marion Barter WS have mentioned similarities to a POI Belgian criminal Ric Blum now in his 80's. ,
He Travelled to Europe Feb 1970 for approx 10 months. Recent Belgian female victims coming forward with stories of his interest in poison, swindling money, isolating victims, travelling different days, changing appearance
He has had at least 10 passports in different names, 37 aliases. Jailed in France for fraud, writing checks without cover, confidence tricks etc in early 70's
He is a romance swindler also 4 trips to Europe in 1995
Jennifer fergate mystery could fit his MO too.