Norway Norway - Oslo - WhtFem 20-30 - Fake Name - Shot in Hotel Room - 3 June 1995 #2

[Marantz4250b]

My ex was Swedish. I'm in North East England. There are lot of very similar words which mean the same thing.

Not that it's really relevant to the discussion.

 

[Beekarina]

Only to say we can be confident Jennifer was not Nordic. At least, I feel confident saying as much.

There are linguistic quirks when speaking English, in particular, that every single friend of mine slips into on occasion. Even the most fluent, and the academics. I trust with certainty they would have picked up on it immediately if Jennifer was Norwegian, Swedish or Danish. Again, JMO.

 

[branmuffin]

This whole thing of removing labels from clothes seems to crop up in a few cases - I can't name any off the top of my head, but I seem to hear it more than I'd expect to, tbh.

I'm beginning to think that it isn't as uncommon, or unusual, or indicative of anything nefarious, as people seem to be suggesting.

Does anyone here actually do this, or know anyone who does?

My mom used to remove labels because they made her itch. That usually was because of the threads used to sew on the label. That's probably the motivating factor in the majority of people who remove labels on their clothes but it doesn't account for removing labels from coats, shoes and other items that don't touch your skin in delicate areas. I've removed labels that were stitched on with nylon thread. They can drive you crazy. Some labels are embroidered with metallic thread that can also irritate the skin. I don't think the labels removed from JF's clothing fall within the parameters of removal because of annoyance but removal to hinder identification of someone.

 

[branmuffin]

I get what you're saying but my guess is that young-ish staff at an international hotel would very likely be able to identify a German accent.

Norway has had a throughput of people from all over the Wold, especially Europe for a long time now due to the oil and gas industry.

Why just younger staff? If you're older you're more likely to experience foreigners with different accents when they speak your language but I don't think I would agree with you that someone, let's say a front desk clerk in a hotel would know if someone speaking German with a Polish accent, an English accent or a Portuguese accent. You'd have to be quite the linguist to ascertain that, imo. I can tell if someone is speaking English with a French accent, an Italian accent, an Indian accent and a Chinese accent but that's because they're speaking my language. I would have no clue if someone was speaking fluent French with a Polish or German accent.

 

[Marantz4250b]

My mom used to remove labels because they made her itch. That usually was because of the threads used to sew on the label. That's probably the motivating factor in the majority of people who remove labels on their clothes but it doesn't account for removing labels from coats, shoes and other items that don't touch your skin in delicate areas. I've removed labels that were stitched on with nylon thread. They can drive you crazy. Some labels are embroidered with metallic thread that can also irritate the skin. I don't think the labels removed from JF's clothing fall within the parameters of removal because of annoyance but removal to hinder identification of someone.

I hear what you're saying but I'm not so sure.

I'm not sure that removing labels from clothing enhances one's ability to go undetected. If that's your aim then buy clothes from a common manufacturer that churns out the same thing by the million. Might be wrong but wasn't it the case that they eventually identified most/all of her stuff anyway? If that's the case then removing them to begin with only serves to make you look even more suspicious?

Removing clothing tags for anonymity purposes seems a waste of time when you're walking about with a briefcase from a really rare maker, which you can't remove the identity from. There is a decent possibility she could have been identified by that, surely?

And the watch. The caseback was inscribed with what was probably a battery change date. Again, that's another potential identifier. If she was an espionage agent then surely these things would be obvious security lapses?

 

[Beekarina]

The Braun Buffel case with the ammunition IS strange.

If she was murdered, maybe the killer grabbed a different bag which had clothes in it instead of grabbing the extra ammo? It really is bizarre to be found the way she was with no pants, skirts, etc.

 

[Beekarina]

I'm personally not convinced she was a spy, but I do think something shady/criminal was going on.

I want to know where she went during the absence from the hotel.

I want to know where all of the clothes for her bottom half went?

If she just wanted to kill herself, why so much ammo?

 

[GracefulD1an]

Only to say we can be confident Jennifer was not Nordic. At least, I feel confident saying as much.

There are linguistic quirks when speaking English, in particular, that every single friend of mine slips into on occasion. Even the most fluent, and the academics. I trust with certainty they would have picked up on it immediately if Jennifer was Norwegian, Swedish or Danish. Again, JMO.

Agreed. It sounds like to me she spent time in an Anglophone country (possibly the UK if my suspicions of the watch is correct), probably starting from her teens onward. Ah but if she lived in the UK then which accent did she have. There are different dialects in the UK including Cockney and RPI so figuring out what type of English accent she had would point us in the right direction. Don’t ask me to list all the accents of the UK though. That would result in me doing a boatload of research. If only someone recorded “Jennifer”. I might be an American but I have seen enough British programs to develop a slight ear for accents.

 

[GatorFL]

I remove tags some of the time. It depends on where they are located and the material. I agree with you that simply removing a tag here and there does not mean someone is a spy or trying to erase clues about their identity.

What IS unique/strange in these cases is all of the tags/labels were removed, and there appears to also have been a coordinated attempt to remove/disguise any trace of identity. False names, false addresses, clothing and other belongings discarded by "Jennifer", "Peter" and probably in "Jennifer's" case, by someone else as well.

I don't find it unusual that a person who has chosen to end their life decided to mask their identity. I'm familiar with a bunch of Doe cases where this exact thing happened. The unusual thing about this case is the bitsa gun.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I'm personally not convinced she was a spy, but I do think something shady/criminal was going on.

I want to know where she went during the absence from the hotel.

I want to know where all of the clothes for her bottom half went?

If she just wanted to kill herself, why so much ammo?

Ageed, all valid points to ask.

I don't see this as anything other than a suicide, though. The positioning of the gun in her hand with her thumb depressing the trigger makes murder a virtual impossibility, imv.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Agreed. It sounds like to me she spent time in an Anglophone country (possibly the UK if my suspicions of the watch is correct), probably starting from her teens onward. Ah but if she lived in the UK then which accent did she have. There are different dialects in the UK including Cockney and RPI so figuring out what type of English accent she had would point us in the right direction. Don’t ask me to list all the accents of the UK though. That would result in me doing a boatload of research. If only someone recorded “Jennifer”. I might be an American but I have seen enough British programs to develop a slight ear for accents.

Myself and a friend, both from the North East (Newcastle area) were in Florida many, many years ago. We were asked on more than one occasion by girls we met there whether we were Danish.

Again, random story which maybe isn't relevant here.

 

[Beekarina]

I do not dismiss suicide as a possibility, it is more that when I look at everything we seem to know, I have a lot of questions.

The food is another weird bit:

"
A day later, when forensic technicians documented the scene, half the food remained.

In the autopsy, 50 ml of food, including sausage bits, was found in the woman’s stomach and had undergone very little digestion.

This is interesting. If the food had been eaten on Friday night, it would long since have been digested. The forensic pathologist who conducted the autopsy declared Saturday night as the time of death, so she must have eaten the food that day, almost a day after its delivery to the room."

Via Mystery at the Oslo Plaza

I know this is technically possible, but it is really weird. Why would she order bratwurst and potato salad on Friday night, and leave it out for a full day, and then eat a bit of it and kill herself? Did she actually die Friday?

I wonder if maybe something happened like this:

Someone was in the room with her, shortly after she ordered the food on Friday and drugged her. Maybe the food was drugged? I realize this is a bit out there, and am just thinking through possibilities. I do not know enough about this topic to know if there are drugs that slow digestion, but I assume there are. Maybe she was incapacitated, and someone was in the room removing labels, getting rid of things, doing who knows what?? And then the guard conveniently arrives right when there is a shot. But again, we know there were two shots, so we also do not know which shot the guard heard. He left for some time, so if someone else was in the room, they had time to leave.

No idea what the motivation is, but some sort of criminal activity. We know some objects--colorful shoes, clothing for her bottom half, any identification if she ever had any on her (how did she enter the country? maybe by car and none was checked) -- were removed. I do not remember reading she was found with any money. But she did have relatively nice clothing and her watch was nice. So that seems strange too.

I don't understand how she moved around without any pants, and killed herself without getting anything on her hands, or managed not to digest food? This is a really bizarre case.

I feel like it will only be solved with respect to her getting her name back if the laws change with genetic genealogy or maybe if there is a new sketch made that actually looks like her when she was alive. Personally, I do not think she looked as "Harsh" as the sketch of her. She was young and petite. I wish CarlK or someone like him would create an alternative.

 

[Amateur Web Sleuth]

I always wondered how she arrived to the hotel. By car, by taxi, walked. Dropped off by the Luis guy? Could she have had another hotel she was going between the 2 for some reason? There’s no way she was walking around in heels with no pants on without anyone noticing.

 

[branmuffin]

I've reacquainted myself with this thread and I've come to the conclusion, one that I've had before, that this was not a suicide. Yeah,I know we have weapons experts on this thread and much thanks to them, but I just cannot believe that this woman decided to kill herself using one of the most awkward, questionable and unusual positions to pull the trigger.

I used to work in the forensic science building in Toronto and it's true that sometimes suicides used their thumbs or toes to pull the trigger but that's with a long gun, not a hand gun. I can't find any statistical evidence that supports this idea that using the thumb to pull the trigger is even efficient. Lots of weapons have considerable recoil but I believe this particular weapon is known for its soft recoil. So if JF was just some run- of-the-mill sad lady who was jilted by her lover and decided to end it all how would she know that the recoil would be soft enough to ensure her aim was true? I think WSers are pretty well divided on how this woman died - murder or suicide and amongst both groups we like to manipulate evidence or circumstance to bolster our conclusions but there are so many gray areas here.

The fact that she had no skirts or pants in the room, the disconnect between when the food was ordered and how much undigested food was in her stomach, the missing shoes that the housekeeper remembers seeing, the strange man who stated he was told about her demise when he checked out but her body wasn't discovered until hours after. Or how many times someone entered the room using the key card yet there is no record of how many times the door was opened from the inside to go out or to let somebody in. There appears there were no cameras in the hallways or even if there were LE never reviewed them or waited too long to view them and by that time they'd been taped over. Perhaps that information has already been reported and I can't remember.

There's more things that make me very leery of the suicide as the manner of death. The isotope testing, like it is most of the time, is usually so far off that to me it's a pointless exercise. And even though Europe is behind North America when it comes to the legalities of using DNA testing, there's nothing to stop them from getting samples from the deceased on the assumption (or hope) that rules may change. How many times have we heard of scientists, yes, those people who understand that science is a living element and evolves, just decided to keep a blood sample or a tooth or even part of a bone, in the hopes that science could use those items to further provide information that wasn't currently available at the time of death.

 

[branmuffin]

I hear what you're saying but I'm not so sure.

I'm not sure that removing labels from clothing enhances one's ability to go undetected. If that's your aim then buy clothes from a common manufacturer that churns out the same thing by the million. Might be wrong but wasn't it the case that they eventually identified most/all of her stuff anyway? If that's the case then removing them to begin with only serves to make you look even more suspicious?

Removing clothing tags for anonymity purposes seems a waste of time when you're walking about with a briefcase from a really rare maker, which you can't remove the identity from. There is a decent possibility she could have been identified by that, surely?

And the watch. The caseback was inscribed with what was probably a battery change date. Again, that's another potential identifier. If she was an espionage agent then surely these things would be obvious security lapses?

You're assuming that the deceased removed the labels. And it's interesting that the suitcase was German and so many people think she's German. How convenient. I buy wallets and travel bags from a German company called Liebeskind. It doesn't mean that I'm German.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I've reacquainted myself with this thread and I've come to the conclusion, one that I've had before, that this was not a suicide. Yeah,I know we have weapons experts on this thread and much thanks to them, but I just cannot believe that this woman decided to kill herself using one of the most awkward, questionable and unusual positions to pull the trigger.

I used to work in the forensic science building in Toronto and it's true that sometimes suicides used their thumbs or toes to pull the trigger but that's with a long gun, not a hand gun. I can't find any statistical evidence that supports this idea that using the thumb to pull the trigger is even efficient. Lots of weapons have considerable recoil but I believe this particular weapon is known for its soft recoil. So if JF was just some run- of-the-mill sad lady who was jilted by her lover and decided to end it all how would she know that the recoil would be soft enough to ensure her aim was true? I think WSers are pretty well divided on how this woman died - murder or suicide and amongst both groups we like to manipulate evidence or circumstance to bolster our conclusions but there are so many gray areas here.

The fact that she had no skirts or pants in the room, the disconnect between when the food was ordered and how much undigested food was in her stomach, the missing shoes that the housekeeper remembers seeing, the strange man who stated he was told about her demise when he checked out but her body wasn't discovered until hours after. Or how many times someone entered the room using the key card yet there is no record of how many times the door was opened from the inside to go out or to let somebody in. There appears there were no cameras in the hallways or even if there were LE never reviewed them or waited too long to view them and by that time they'd been taped over. Perhaps that information has already been reported and I can't remember.

There's more things that make me very leery of the suicide as the manner of death. The isotope testing, like it is most of the time, is usually so far off that to me it's a pointless exercise. And even though Europe is behind North America when it comes to the legalities of using DNA testing, there's nothing to stop them from getting samples from the deceased on the assumption (or hope) that rules may change. How many times have we heard of scientists, yes, those people who understand that science is a living element and evolves, just decided to keep a blood sample or a tooth or even part of a bone, in the hopes that science could use those items to further provide information that wasn't currently available at the time of death.

I get what you're saying but, with respect, you're incorrect about the gun and how it was used.

The recoil isn't "soft" as such, but neither is it unusually harsh. It's a 9mm pistol, what you might call a "full size" pistol rather than a compact gun. They aren't particularly difficult or unnerving to shoot. I've shot them many years ago and I own one stored outside the UK, although I've not actually got to shoot it yet.

The recoil thing isn't relevant. A firearm doesn't begin to recoil until the bullet has left the muzzle so even if it recolled so aggressively that it was flung across the room, she'd still have shot herself.

It was the official sidearm of the British military and many commonwealth nations for many years. Lots of other militaries used them over the decades. It's very useable.

Check the below image, it's a very famous scene from Lethal Weapon (second best Christmas movie ever). The Beretta 92 used by Mel Gibson is roughly the same size as the Browning GP-35. He has no problem putting to his forehead with thumb through the trigger.

https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:1216/format:webp/1*VSFZqyFTAHnfLdKC0h9nlQ.png

Yes, everything else about how she was found is bizarre and sketchy af, but there is nothing which says that it was impossible that she could have killed herself in this way. Indeed, due to the way in which the gun was found - her thumb still depressing the trigger which reset to its firing position when removed from her hand - the chances that someone else discharged it are extremely slim and close to zero, imo.

 

[Marantz4250b]

You're assuming that the deceased removed the labels. And it's interesting that the suitcase was German and so many people think she's German. How convenient. I buy wallets and travel bags from a German company called Liebeskind. It doesn't mean that I'm German.

You're right, she may not have been the one who removed the labels. It's not my assumption, though, as the theory that she was a spy seems to be largely founded on that fact. I'm just trying to offer alternatives.

I don't think that fact that the case was German is the theory behind the fact she may have been also. That's more down to her supposed German accent, I believe.

I may be wrong, but I think I recall reading that most of those cases were sold inside Germany, though.

 

[Beekarina]

The problem with a hotel, in particular, is we take it on face value the items found in the room were "Jennifer's"

Down to the watch, the ammo case, IF she was murdered all of those items we believe to be clues could have also been left there as part of a faked scene. It is a convenient way to dispose of things if you were confident they could not be traced and would also just be assumed to belong to Jennifer.....

Another woman could have killed her. It could explain the two pairs of shoes--the "colorful" pair the member of the staff remembered seeing and liking that were not found. Lois Fairgate is a gender neutral name. No one ever remembers seeing another woman, and again, I am going out on the brainstorming edge here, but if questioned "Oh, I am Lois" works for a man or a woman....

And a woman could have easily walked out wearing some of "Jennifer's: clothes, carrying her hand luggage, etc and not drawn attention. I would be willing to bet in the mayhem around the time of the gunshot and the police arriving, the hotel was not on alert for another petite woman. They would be the perfect "grey man", if this is a murder.

Just a thought.

 

[Marantz4250b]

The problem with a hotel, in particular, is we take it on face value the items found in the room were "Jennifer's"

Down to the watch, the ammo case, IF she was murdered all of those items we believe to be clues could have also been left there as part of a faked scene. It is a convenient way to dispose of things if you were confident they could not be traced and would also just be assumed to belong to Jennifer.....

Another woman could have killed her. It could explain the two pairs of shoes--the "colorful" pair the member of the staff remembered seeing and liking that were not found. Lois Fairgate is a gender neutral name. No one ever remembers seeing another woman, and again, I am going out on the brainstorming edge here, but if questioned "Oh, I am Lois" works for a man or a woman....

And a woman could have easily walked out wearing some of "Jennifer's: clothes, carrying her hand luggage, etc and not drawn attention. I would be willing to bet in the mayhem around the time of the gunshot and the police arriving, the hotel was not on alert for another petite woman. They would be the perfect "grey man", if this is a murder.

Just a thought.

This is all a highly elaborate plan which, imo, seems totally unnecessary. She was out of the hotel for many hours (a full day, I think) so why not murder her somewhere isolated, with better escape routes, and more opportunity to hide the body?

It just doesn't sit right with me, I'm afraid. Suicide is perfectly plausible and it was entirely possible for her to accomplish it with the gun she had. Yes, I get that the whole situation is weird, but it just seems to me that there are huge efforts being made to support theories that the physical evidence simply doesn't point to.

Facts we know:

• she was found dead on a hotel bed
• the room she was in was locked from the inside
• there was a gunshot to her forehead
• the bullet which caused the injury was found under the bed smashed against the floor
• she was holding a pistol and that pistol was proved to be the gun that fired the bullet which inflicted the fatal wound
• it would have been entirely possible for her to have inflicted that wound on herself
• her grip on the pistol would have been virtually impossible to create (with the trigger held fully rearwards) had the fatal shot been fired by someone else. There would also be zero benefit in doing so if you were trying to stage a suicide - there wouldn't even be any need to place it in her hand

You have to ask yourself which the more likely answer is to all this - suicide or a very elaborate and extremely risky murder plot which involved a high likelihood of being caught?

Yes, I appreciate that the situation with the lack of clothes, lack of anything much other than a gun and too much ammunition, is very strange. So, however, is shooting yourself in a hotel room to begin with! I mean, it's not the kind of thing that happens every day.

I've said it before, on this and many other cases; this feels very like people are taking what evidence there is (and I accept it's all weird evidence) and trying to think up what reasons there might be for it to exist rather than actually asking what the evidence means and following from there. No, we don't know what the evidence means - such as the lack of clothes, or that she disappeared for a full day prior - but just because we don't know doesn't mean it points to something nefarious and other people being involved.

When you think about it, the whole thing just paints a picture of a young woman in crisis, who wasn't making good decisions and probably didn't care as she'd decided that she was going to kill herself in any event. Sad - and far less sensational than an international spy killed by enemies of her state (or perhaps by people from her state) - but, when you consider it rationally, that's most likely far closer to the real story than anything else.

 

[Beekarina]

This is all a highly elaborate plan which, imo, seems totally unnecessary. She was out of the hotel for many hours (a full day, I think) so why not murder her somewhere isolated, with better escape routes, and more opportunity to hide the body?

It just doesn't sit right with me, I'm afraid. Suicide is perfectly plausible and it was entirely possible for her to accomplish it with the gun she had. Yes, I get that the whole situation is weird, but it just seems to me that there are huge efforts being made to support theories that the physical evidence simply doesn't point to.

Facts we know:

• she was found dead on a hotel bed
• the room she was in was locked from the inside
• there was a gunshot to her forehead
• the bullet which caused the injury was found under the bed smashed against the floor
• she was holding a pistol and that pistol was proved to be the gun that fired the bullet which inflicted the fatal wound
• it would have been entirely possible for her to have inflicted that wound on herself
• her grip on the pistol would have been virtually impossible to create (with the trigger held fully rearwards) had the fatal shot been fired by someone else. There would also be zero benefit in doing so if you were trying to stage a suicide - there wouldn't even be any need to place it in her hand

You have to ask yourself which the more likely answer is to all this - suicide or a very elaborate and extremely risky murder plot which involved a high likelihood of being caught?

Yes, I appreciate that the situation with the lack of clothes, lack of anything much other than a gun and too much ammunition, is very strange. So, however, is shooting yourself in a hotel room to begin with! I mean, it's not the kind of thing that happens every day.

I've said it before, on this and many other cases; this feels very like people are taking what evidence there is (and I accept it's all weird evidence) and trying to think up what reasons there might be for it to exist rather than actually asking what the evidence means and following from there. No, we don't know what the evidence means - such as the lack of clothes, or that she disappeared for a full day prior - but just because we don't know doesn't mean it points to something nefarious and other people being involved.

When you think about it, the whole thing just paints a picture of a young woman in crisis, who wasn't making good decisions and probably didn't care as she'd decided that she was going to kill herself in any event. Sad - and far less sensational than an international spy killed by enemies of her state (or perhaps by people from her state) - but, when you consider it rationally, that's most likely far closer to the real story than anything else.

Exactly. We have no way of knowing where she went when out of the hotel. Who she may have been with. What she was up to. With the case of "Peter Bergmann" which I referenced as sharing some similarities, many of his movements were at least caught on camera as he moved around Sligo,Ireland. IF Jennifer was involved in something shady/criminal, it is possible she "messed" up, and/or the others involved decided they wanted her out of the picture after whatever happened when she was out of the hotel. Why was she at a hotel, and this one in particular, in the first place?

Based on the housekeepers reports, there was an indication of two beds being slept in at least some of the nights. Maybe Jennifer used both, or maybe "Lois"? I keep wondering about those "nice shoes"? Could they have belonged to a second woman?

Yes, the room was locked. There were two keycards in the room, but It is also possible to lock the door in other ways. The room was unattended for approximately 15 minutes after the guard heard a shot and before law enforcement arrived on the scene.

I'm not sure how I feel about the gun. I have no personal experience with that particular weapon, so if you own one like it, I will defer to you on how it works. I do find the grip strange and it seems weird how clean her hands were.

I think we could also argue if she just wanted to kill herself, what was going on for it to take days? You could also ask why she did not just jump in front of a train while out in Oslo or something along those lines? Why bother using a gun with acid removed serial numbers if she is just some sad young woman suffering from depression? Why carry around all that ammo? How to explain the undigested food?

I do understand how they arrived at suicide and I understand your point about what is most straightforward. There is just enough weird here that I also understand taking another look. Especially since no one has ever come forward to say "Hey, I know her..." She was someone's daughter, maybe sister, lover, wife(?), student, friend....It is truly weird with the coverage that no one seems to know her or is reminded of a depressed friend, neighbor, cousin, something?

Where we do agree is I also do not get the espionage vibes. I think this is too sloppy for that.