Norway Norway - Oslo, WhtFem 20-30, Fake Name, shot in hotel room, Jun'95

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  • #621
Is it? According to @ApparentlyInDenial's photo analysis, the gun at the crime scene is smaller than the one LE "presented to the world".
MOO JMO


It isn't. It's just a badly exposed picture. As I've said, there is no smaller version of this gun and the visible portion is definitely a GP-35 so what could possibly be achieved by making it look smaller?
 
  • #622
In Europe it is really uncommon to go commando. And she had moderately risque understuff in her luggage (the lacy corset bras and the thigh highs). I believe that the man may have taken the panties with him. If it was not a suicide but staged, I still suspect murder of a highclass escort. Her patron may have taken her knickers as souvenir (not uncommon).

Plus, ummm, thigh highs and a miniskirt dont do well with going commando in the outside world... i believe someone took the panties.

Not common but by no means unheard of. I knew an extremely classy girl a few years back who dressed like that and you'd never know unless you knew!
 
  • #623
The male shirt is a Guaybera shirt. I don't think they were very common in Europe. In Spain maybe, but not in countries with cold weather all year round.

MOO JMO

Most of Europe is pretty warm in summer - even the Scandinavian countries!
 
  • #624
It isn't. It's just a badly exposed picture. As I've said, there is no smaller version of this gun and the visible portion is definitely a GP-35 so what could possibly be achieved by making it look smaller?

Afraid you're wrong. Professionally speaking, as part of my work I've commissioned photos and forensic photo analysis as part of investigative research for a number of governments around the world. Take a look at the attached. This isn't poorly exposed; the forward part of the gun does not exist in this photograph, I can assure you. Any expert will tell you the same.

In a fraud case e.g., this kind of photo would lead to a police interview, at the least.
 

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  • #625
Not common but by no means unheard of. I knew an extremely classy girl a few years back who dressed like that and you'd never know unless you knew!

I am also European. Yes, sure, there are mildly eccentric people found occasionally, but it is certainly not the norm. I remember when the Sumter jd couple was still UID, people claimed they were "European" because they did not wear underwear. I have no idea where this is even coming from.... totally absurd.
 
  • #626
Most of Europe is pretty warm in summer - even the Scandinavian countries!

It depends on what you consider warm. You can't compare the summers in Northern Europe with the summers in Southern Europe. Nor an occasional heatwave in Europe with permanent warm weather in the Tropics.
If the link bellow is accurate, between the 27th of May and the 3rd of June, the high temperatures in Oslo varied from 14ºC to 21ºC, and the low between 9.4ºC and 12.8ºC. I don't consider this to be warm weather, and definitely not the temperatures i would wear the clothing selection found in the hotel room. Except for the leather jacket. And this may indicate that she traveled from a warmer region.

MOO JMO

Climate Oslo / Gardermoen (Year 1995) - Climate data (13840)
 
  • #627
Afraid you're wrong. Professionally speaking, as part of my work I've commissioned photos and forensic photo analysis as part of investigative research for a number of governments around the world. Take a look at the attached. This isn't poorly exposed; the forward part of the gun does not exist in this photograph, I can assure you. Any expert will tell you the same.

In a fraud case e.g., this kind of photo would lead to a police interview, at the least.

Okay, so it's not there so has been removed from the photo for some purpose. The point being is that we don't know what that purpose was. There may have been some perfectly legitimate reason to do it, either evidential or technical? I do not know what that may be though. Indeed, any perfectly reasonable explanation at the time may have been lost in the mists of time.

One cannot simply arrive at the conclusion that it was done as some form of conspiracy or cover-up attempt. There is no evidence to support that. Even if it was then it's a pretty amateurish attempt, quite frankly.

It was not done to disguise the type of weapon as it's very obviously a GP-35
It was not done to make it look like a different variant of the pattern as there are none.
There is no story associated with the "short" weapon that anyone has put out that would require a shorter gun to have been used.
There are no claimed "facts" associated to the case in any respect what-so-ever which would require that photo to be doctored in that specific fashion.

We are also forgetting that we don't actually know the full history of any of these photos or of their reproductions posted on any website which has them. They were taken twenty six years ago, almost certainly on 35mm film, in a dimly lit hotel room at night and many will be copies of copies some of which may have had any amount of alteration done to them for many legitimate purposes. The two websites linked to below have the "same" photo on them but they look very different indeed. One is much brighter and clearer than the other. So there are already perfectly legitimate differences depending on where you look.

The Oslo Plaza Hotel Mystery - who was Jennifer Fairgate?

Who Killed Jennifer Fairgate? - Reddit Theories on the Oslo Hotel

I don't think it can be stated with certainty what a picture actually shows or doesn't show unless you have access to the original negative, a first generation print made from same or the digital file as it came off the camera which took it. How do we know that every copy of that picture on the internet didn't actually originate from a badly exposed photograph of an original printed photo which has managed to obliterate a part of the picture perfectly innocently? We don't but that is a perfectly plausible explanation. Indeed, we don't know the true origin of any of the photos of this event; yes, they were original police evidence photos but we don't know where the ones we find online actually came from. Even the good quality ones of the gun taken in a properly lit evidence photo room are (from memory) photos of actual printed photos taken at some point in the previous two and a half decades so it is not unreasonable to consider that that may well be the case for every one of the other photos.

I'm at a loss as to how you can analyse something for evidential purposes if you do not know it's true origin. If it is a copy of a copy then you are analysing the attributes of a copy of a copy rather than of the original.

If people want to spin it as evidence of some sort of conspiracy or state cover-up then that's fine but they need to provide evidence for that and a picture which simply doesn't look right is not evidence of anything other than a picture which doesn't look right. The problem we now have is that a lot of people are in "conspiracy mode" and it's clear from the tone of some of the posts that people are "investigating" it from the mindset of it being evidence of a conspiracy and are looking for additional evidence to support that pre-conceived idea. People are reaching the point where they want there to be conspiracy. If not so much on here some of the more radical conspiracy theorists out there will definitely fan the flames over the internet. That's rather depressing and sad because every rational way of explaining this ends up at the conclusion that a lonely young woman decided, for whatever reason, to end her life alone and unloved in a hotel. I'm sure there will be other factors surrounding her death as I suspect that there is likely some criminal or underworld connections but I doubt it'll be anything particularly unusual. It might, might be a badly investigated murder but I think that suicide is by far the more likely explanation.
 
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  • #628
We're getting closer to seeing eye-to-eye... little bit. But your question:

How do we know that every copy of that picture on the internet didn't actually originate from a badly exposed photograph of an original printed photo which has managed to obliterate a part of the picture perfectly innocently?

The reason we know with some certainty is the luminescence graph, the one I just showed you that is sort of purple. It demonstrates the light 'fall' in the photo as taken. Any interferences (i.e. strange linear zones of 'blank' colour and no actual compression fuzz and the like) suggest tampering after the fact. I agree that this doesn't necessarily = a major espionage conspiracy, but I've been thorough and I always try to prove myself wrong before making any kind of statement. There is a genuine question to be answered about this photo.

Maybe a 'friend' did something stupid and they wanted to make it look less bad. Maybe they were mindful that Clinton and Rabin would be meeting in that building, that many senior diplomats and ministers from around the world were staying there all that year, and they didn't want to put out a message that someone could get shot in the hotel. Or maybe something more sinister is also possible. I doubt we'll ever know. So we can only indulge ourselves in the knowledge of what kind of things *do* go on, and what information (flaky or solid) we have.
 
  • #629
It depends on what you consider warm. You can't compare the summers in Northern Europe with the summers in Southern Europe. Nor an occasional heatwave in Europe with permanent warm weather in the Tropics.
If the link bellow is accurate, between the 27th of May and the 3rd of June, the high temperatures in Oslo varied from 14ºC to 21ºC, and the low between 9.4ºC and 12.8ºC. I don't consider this to be warm weather, and definitely not the temperatures i would wear the clothing selection found in the hotel room. Except for the leather jacket. And this may indicate that she traveled from a warmer region.

MOO JMO

Climate Oslo / Gardermoen (Year 1995) - Climate data (13840)

I believe we have only part of the wardrobe here, most items are hers, some are male clothing from her companion. And obviously some of her items were taken away with the suitcase by her companion.
You can easily wear a linen short sleeve shirt (present) with a suit jacket (present) and a thin coat (missing) on top in Oslo in May. If it is 15-20 degrees, you may even skip the coat.
Hey, ive seen folks in Iceland wear tank tops and shorts at 12 degrees outside... that is another level, but 15-20 degrees are not exactly cold weather. Mild and pleasant springtime weather.
 
  • #630
The reason we know with some certainty is the luminescence graph, the one I just showed you that is sort of purple. It demonstrates the light 'fall' in the photo as taken. Any interferences (i.e. strange linear zones of 'blank' colour and no actual compression fuzz and the like) suggest tampering after the fact. I agree that this doesn't necessarily = a major espionage conspiracy, but I've been thorough and I always try to prove myself wrong before making any kind of statement. There is a genuine question to be answered about this photo.

Maybe a 'friend' did something stupid and they wanted to make it look less bad. Maybe they were mindful that Clinton and Rabin would be meeting in that building, that many senior diplomats and ministers from around the world were staying there all that year, and they didn't want to put out a message that someone could get shot in the hotel. Or maybe something more sinister is also possible. I doubt we'll ever know. So we can only indulge ourselves in the knowledge of what kind of things *do* go on, and what information (flaky or solid) we have.

Yes, accepted. Having looked at the photo a bit more it does appear that the gun has its nose chopped off.

As I say though, unless we know the history of that particular photo then we can't really draw any conclusions from it. We don't know who did it or why. I literally can't think of any purpose to do it; it has no benefit in making the affair look less bad as a woman being shot in your hotel is about as bad as it gets and a slightly shorter gun doesn't alleviate that. Nor does it serve to make dignitaries feel less unsafe. The only plausible explanation I can think of is that someone used it to demonstrate how to change photos with software and this pic somehow got out into the wild. It may not even have been done by any state agency at all. It has literally no benefit to anyone to do it. Most strange.
 
  • #631
Hey, ive seen folks in Iceland wear tank tops and shorts at 12 degrees outside... that is another level, but 15-20 degrees are not exactly cold weather. Mild and pleasant springtime weather.

It is 42 F where I am, so what would that be, about 6 C? (New England, US.) I was outside doing light yard work, comfortably in a t-shirt, and a lightweight flannel shirt. (Nothing heavy or lined, think the sort of thinner, flannel designed for women, more for fashion than function. ) At the upper range of the quoted temps, I would just wear the t-shirt.

I think clothing choice is relative, and personal. She had plenty to layer--the sweater, the windbreaker type coat, the leather jacket, etc--and the style of her clothing looks right for wearing indoors. We also do not know what the missing bottoms may have been, or what could have been in the missing luggage. She could have had a warmer sweater, a paid of trousers or jeans, etc for walking around. No one knows.

Her complexion appears fair, so we can possibly assume if she did come from someplace warm, she wasn't outside much. There have been some cases where people had visible tan lines and that kind of thing, out of season for the place where they died. I don't see anything like this with "Jennifer".
 
  • #632
I believe we have only part of the wardrobe here, most items are hers, some are male clothing from her companion. And obviously some of her items were taken away with the suitcase by her companion.
You can easily wear a linen short sleeve shirt (present) with a suit jacket (present) and a thin coat (missing) on top in Oslo in May. If it is 15-20 degrees, you may even skip the coat.
Hey, ive seen folks in Iceland wear tank tops and shorts at 12 degrees outside... that is another level, but 15-20 degrees are not exactly cold weather. Mild and pleasant springtime weather.

And that's the part of the wardrobe we have to focus on. We can't speculate on things that were not in the room nor if her companion took other items with the suitcase or not. If there was in fact a suitcase, why would the supposed companion only take some items with him?

As to wearing a sleeveless shirt (present) or a "male shirt" (present) and a suit jacket with an average temperature of 15º or 20ºC, i can assure you that i wouldn't skip a coat. But that's me. And i don't deal well with temperatures below 25ºC.

I stand by my previous statement, she whether traveled from a warmer place or her clothing selection was an intentional red herring (thus the absence of labels!?).

MOO JMO
 
  • #633
Is it possible Jennifer killed someone else, and the other clothing was bloody or somehow damaged/contaminated?

The theories for someone stealing her panties seem possible, but I can't really understand why someone would take her skirt or any other regular clothing items, like a pair of trousers (if she had them) as a souvenir?
 
  • #634
It is 42 F where I am, so what would that be, about 6 C? (New England, US.) I was outside doing light yard work, comfortably in a t-shirt, and a lightweight flannel shirt. (Nothing heavy or lined, think the sort of thinner, flannel designed for women, more for fashion than function. ) At the upper range of the quoted temps, I would just wear the t-shirt.

I think clothing choice is relative, and personal. She had plenty to layer--the sweater, the windbreaker type coat, the leather jacket, etc--and the style of her clothing looks right for wearing indoors. We also do not know what the missing bottoms may have been, or what could have been in the missing luggage. She could have had a warmer sweater, a paid of trousers or jeans, etc for walking around. No one knows.

Her complexion appears fair, so we can possibly assume if she did come from someplace warm, she wasn't outside much. There have been some cases where people had visible tan lines and that kind of thing, out of season for the place where they died. I don't see anything like this with "Jennifer".

She was described as "carefully made up and obviously concerned with her looks". The clothes found in the room show the opposite, IMO. The wrinkles suggest that the clothes were carelessly thrown into the suitcase at the last minute. MOO JMO

A warmer place doesn't mean sunnier or with high UV levels.

MOO JMO
 
  • #635
She was described as "carefully made up and obviously concerned with her looks". The clothes found in the room show the opposite, IMO. The wrinkles suggest that the clothes were carelessly thrown into the suitcase at the last minute. MOO JMO

MOO JMO

Every female I've ever lived with was obsessive about their looks.....didn't stop them using the bedroom floor as their default option for clothes storage though!
 
  • #636
Every female I've ever lived with was obsessive about their looks.....didn't stop them using the bedroom floor as their default option for clothes storage though!

Using the floor to store clothes has nothing to do with how you pack a suitcase. If you're going on vacation or on a business trip i am sure you don't want to spend half of time ironing, do you?
I assume people who are concerned about their looks would pack a tidy suitcase with neatly folded clothes. Not only it allows you to pack more items as it also spares you from wasting time ironing. But apparently my observations are all wrong and not of great value...

BTW, I'm a few years younger than "Jennifer" and i go commando and wear french knickers since i was 16, and i'm not a "high class escort". It's not an escort only kind of thing, as it was implied before. I find it comfortable and I'm sure a lot of women find it too.

MOO JMO
 
  • #637
The clothes may also be wrinkled due to handling by the police, and if some are linen, as you guys are likely aware, linen wrinkles almost the moment you touch it!

JMO, but no one should feel their observations are without value. We don't have a lot to go on here, so I personally think conversations with different perspectives are useful. You never know what might shake out from going back and forth about things.

When I was looking through Interpol missing the other day, I again thought "Jennifer" from the sketch at least, looks the most like the women from Belarus.
 
  • #638
I found it a bit strange not to have a garment bag with so many jackets. Maybe the companion had one? Jennifer may have also bought some of the clothing in Norway once she arrived? The details do not note if it was new, etc. only the tags being carefully removed, and the references to her "elegant appearance."

Edited to add: I still find it curious the Norwegian police would go to the trouble to use clothing experts for "Kambo Man", and not for "Jennifer."
 
  • #639
There were some eyewitness reports about a small black carryon suitcase she checked in with but it was not in her room anymore when she was found.
 
  • #640
Regarding the mutilated gun, is it possible that the front part was removed by LE and opened to do a ballistics test?
But i have no clue about how that works, if anyone knows more, fill me in.
 
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