Norway Norway - Oslo, WhtFem 20-30, Fake Name, shot in hotel room, Jun'95

[PatLaurel]

Yes, they are; I said that I didn't think anyone was passing judgement on sex workers, you replied and said it was passing judgement on sex workers,

Norway - Norway - Oslo, WhtFemale, 20-30, Fake Name, shot in hotel room, Jun'95

I thought you were referring to this post: Norway - Norway - Oslo, WhtFemale, 20-30, Fake Name, shot in hotel room, Jun'95

Yes it was a direct reply to your comment but the "message" was not directed at you.

 

[annpats]

Again though, if the police wanted it to disappear then it would have done. They decided to keep it as an exhibit gun though which tends to suggest against any cover-up theory.

I don't think it does. The gun was such a Frankenstein's monster it didn't need covering up. Although I think plenty else in this case has.
If you think this is a suicide, then I find that a bit naive. So much points towards it NOT being that.

 

[annpats]

I highly doubt that a knickers fetishist took her underwear. Generally these kinky trophy hunters prefer the underwear worn by the "victims" during their interaction together.

MO JMO MOO JMOO

Well, who's to say that an interaction didn't happen? I'm sure something was going on with room 2816. Although who knows what. I think that's where her clothes and suitcase ended up. But, she did take his newspaper....

 

[Marantz4250b]

I don't think it does. The gun was such a Frankenstein's monster it didn't need covering up. Although I think plenty else in this case has.
If you think this is a suicide, then I find that a bit naive. So much points towards it NOT being that.

It does because the pics of the gun in her hand were obviously taken at the time she was shot. It is clearly the same gun as in the police evidence lab photos which is the same gun the police still have. The pics of the gun in her hand have been circulated for years and were certainly in circulation prior to the gun being discovered in the police collection.

It's not naiive to think it a suicide. The evidence points towards that, certainly more strongly than towards anything else. People seem to be concluding that some unexplained circumstances about this case mean that it was some state conspiracy. All it means though is that there are some unexplained things. The very fact that they are indeed unexplained means that we do not know what they mean. It isn't evidence of some plot by the government or the police. It is evidence of nothing much at all.

There was a dead woman lying on the bed with a bullet hole in her head and a gun in her hand her thumb holding the trigger at it's point of farthest travel, the evidence tells us that the bullet passed through her head, the bed and ended up on the floor. Those are facts. Facts which no one is disputing. There are many other unusual and unexplained circumstances attached to the scene. Those do not point towards this NOT being a suicide - they simply logically cannot do so as they are by definition unexplained. Unless and until we have an explanation for them then it is not rational to draw any conclusion from them.

 

[PatLaurel]

Well, who's to say that an interaction didn't happen? I'm sure something was going on with room 2816. Although who knows what. I think that's where her clothes and suitcase ended up. But, she did take his newspaper....

I also think that if room 2816 could talk, it would answer our questions.

MOO JMO

 

[annpats]

@Marantz4250b, Obviously no-one is going to convince you it's anything other than a suicide, despite plenty of evidence to the contrary. That's fine, it's up to you, and of course you have your opinion to which you are entitled.
But please don't be so strident and dismissive of others' opinions.
We are all just putting together theories and ideas, nothing is absolute.

 

[Marantz4250b]

@Marantz4250b, Obviously no-one is going to convince you it's anything other than a suicide, despite plenty of evidence to the contrary. That's fine, it's up to you, and of course you have your opinion to which you are entitled.
But please don't be so strident and dismissive of others' opinions.
We are all just putting together theories and ideas, nothing is absolute.

I'm not being dismissive of anything or anyone. I'm simply looking at the evidence. I'm perfectly happy to conclude that she was shot by someone else or that some nefarious state involvement took place but only on presentation of actual evidence of same. Lots of strange and unexplained and seemingly out of place events though are not evidence of anything. They are simply things we cannot explain. Obviously someone else is involved somewhere along the line as people do not live their lives in a vacuum (I mean she acquired the gun from someone, after all) but there is literally no evidence at all to suggest that someone actually killed her. The very way in which the gun was found in her hand (her thumb depressing the trigger) is extremely suggestive of suicide rather than anything more nefarious. That fact alone makes it, when you think abut it, highly unlikely that someone else did it.

What actual evidence is there which is contrary to it being a suicide, when it comes right down to it? Very, very little, from what I can see. Things like apparently missing clothes, payment in cash no form of ID do not contradict the evidence that she killed herself. They neither contradict it or support it. They are simply some unusual facts which we cannot explain. They do not of themselves suggest murder.

 

[Beekarina]

Is there a photo of her deceased in the bed, holding the weapon, full body?

 

[Beekarina]

Yes, people have killed themselves in hotels. What I am getting at is the full picture. It is very odd. She at least *claimed* to be from another country. I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I can't imagine going to that sort of trouble while despondent.

If she was being trafficked and controlled, why was she the one who phoned the hotel on both occasions in reference to the room reservations?

 

[Beekarina]

When you consider what *was* left in the hotel room, doesn't it seem a bit curious she was left with so many bullets?

I wish there was a way--at least an easy way--to learn about any other shootings within a day's travel from Oslo during her stay.

 

[ApparentlyInDenial]

I'm not being dismissive of anything or anyone. I'm simply looking at the evidence. I'm perfectly happy to conclude that she was shot by someone else or that some nefarious state involvement took place but only on presentation of actual evidence of same. Lots of strange and unexplained and seemingly out of place events though are not evidence of anything. They are simply things we cannot explain. Obviously someone else is involved somewhere along the line as people do not live their lives in a vacuum (I mean she acquired the gun from someone, after all) but there is literally no evidence at all to suggest that someone actually killed her. The very way in which the gun was found in her hand (her thumb depressing the trigger) is extremely suggestive of suicide rather than anything more nefarious. That fact alone makes it, when you think abut it, highly unlikely that someone else did it.

What actual evidence is there which is contrary to it being a suicide, when it comes right down to it? Very, very little, from what I can see. Things like apparently missing clothes, payment in cash no form of ID do not contradict the evidence that she killed herself. They neither contradict it or support it. They are simply some unusual facts which we cannot explain. They do not of themselves suggest murder.

Logic works differently depending on what kind of logic is being applied and what questions are being asked. Logic is a huge area of study for this reason - there isn’t one “logic”!

You’re using abductive reasoning, which can present a reasonable conclusion but doesn’t require complete verification.

Some of us are using deductive reasoning, entertaining other possibilities and seeking absolute certainty before a theory is validated.

In this case we have friction, because abductive reasoning which ends when the ‘best available’ conclusion is found (suicide), directly contradicts deductive reasoning, which instead keeps running and entertaining possible theories until absolute certainty is found.

You have to let us go through that process if we want, as this is a democratic forum. I for one respect that you’ve reached a ‘best available’ conclusion but I think some of us would like to continue with deductive reasoning until we’re satisfied.

 

[branmuffin]

You can't take that gun apart in such a manner so that it would be radically shortened forward of the receiver which is basically where it is shortened in the pic. The other thing is that that picture is of it in her hand before they removed it so it obviously hadn't been touched at that point. The gun was complete and assembled when the evidence pictures were taken at the crime lab. It's definitely the same gun as was in her hand as the marks on the rear part of the slide are the same.

Again though, if the police wanted it to disappear then it would have done. They decided to keep it as an exhibit gun though which tends to suggest against any cover-up theory.

What is the difference between these two pistols? They are both Brownings. They look to have different barrel lengths. According to the article they may be weapons in a gun experts private collection.

Mystery at the Oslo Plaza

I was just curious regarding the statement that JF had 34 rounds of ammo, 7 in the magazine, 25 in the briefcase and 2 expended. I've read that the magazine holds nine rounds. I checked to find magazines for this particular weapon come in 10, 13, and 15 rounds. So if you were going to fill the smallest magazine wouldn't you put in ten? I wonder where the 10th bullet went?

 

[branmuffin]

What is the difference between these two pistols? They are both Brownings. They look to have different barrel lengths. According to the article they may be weapons in a gun expert's private collection.

Mystery at the Oslo Plaza

I was just curious regarding statements in various accounts that JF had 34 rounds of ammo, 7 in the magazine, 25 in the briefcase and 2 expended. I've read that the magazine holds nine rounds. I checked online to find magazines for this particular weapon come in 10, 13, and 15 rounds. So if you were going to fill the smallest magazine wouldn't you put in ten? I wonder where the 10th bullet went?


Mystery at the Oslo Plaza

 

[Beekarina]

I was just curious regarding statements in various accounts that JF had 34 rounds of ammo, 7 in the magazine, 25 in the briefcase and 2 expended. I've read that the magazine holds nine rounds. I checked online to find magazines for this particular weapon come in 10, 13, and 15 rounds. So if you were going to fill the smallest magazine wouldn't you put in ten? I wonder where the 10th bullet went?


Mystery at the Oslo Plaza

Along this same line of thought, 34 rounds seems an unusual number to have. In my experience, at least, ammo usually is sold in boxes of 20, 50, 100, 250, 1,000.... I keep wondering why it was loose like that, in the briefcase? It is a strange way, IMO, to carry ammo. And there wasn't anything found to indicate how the gun was carried, was there? I don't remember anything about a holster, for example. So, was it just thrown in with the ammo? Another thing that is weird....

 

[ChatteringBirds]

The 2 phone calls she made, or attempted to make - what are all the known facts, including follow-up by LE?
Those of you who have researched this case at length, what are your thoughts about the calls?

 

[Beekarina]

I think two scenarios are equally likely:

1. She was trying to contact someone (or *maybe* two somone's) and could not quite remember the phone number.

2. The phone calls were another layer in the false identity, since they point to the same general area in Belgium when retraced by the Norwegian journalists.

The journalists think she had some connection to that part of Belgium, and I think that is probably correct. Even if it turns out to be a grandparent lived there, or a former boyfriend or something along those lines.

If the calls were made intentionally, it would be an easy enough part of her false identity. If staying in hotels under an assumed ID was something she had done previously, maybe it always included the calls, knowing if anyone looked closer they would take a look at things like that and calls to Belgium would reinforce the guest from Belgium narrative?

FWIW, I personally do not think Jennifer was a spy. I think she was involved in some sort of criminal activity. Just my running theory for now.

 

[Beekarina]

Here's a thought: Jennifer doesn't look like an escort to me, but maybe she was a Ghislaine type or someone who worked to entice other women/girls? That is the kind of activity a woman her age could unfortunately be mixed up in ( as opposed to being a involved in upper level espionage)

The banging noises heard by guests (Borghild, I believe?) on the same floor could have been related to someone other than Jennifer.

Mr F. never said which room another guest died in on Friday, did he? Is it possible TWO women died at the Plaza? i.e. Jennifer and someone she helped arrange for another guest? Perhaps she felt guilty, and took her life, or she was killed out of concern she was going to say something?

I'm just thinking....high end hotel, concerned about their reputation. Lots of international guests....powerful guests.

Maybe too "out there" of a thought, but if we can discuss Jennifer being an escort, I think considering she could have been involved in same in a different way also seems possible.

 

[branmuffin]

The 2 phone calls she made, or attempted to make - what are all the known facts, including follow-up by LE?
Those of you who have researched this case at length, what are your thoughts about the calls?

My impressions of her phone calls and all the not-quite-right information on her check-in card is that she may have lived in Belgium as a young child and is misremembering the street names, company name, postal codes and phone numbers. Like she is trying to contact someone from her past.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Is there a photo of her deceased in the bed, holding the weapon, full body?

I've never seen one published but I'd guess that the police have some of that nature.

 

[Beekarina]

I noticed something when comparing the Isdal woman to Jennifer. The Isdal woman's check in cards, her "1"s do NOT have the same large, sloping downward tab on the left that we established as European.

Just noting here as both are thought to have likely been German, and the Isdal woman also is believed to have been raised in Belgium. For comparison:



Isdal Woman's check in cards from: Isdal Woman: The mystery death haunting Norway for 46 years

Jennifer Fairgate's from Mystery at the Oslo Plaza