NPR - Some Key Facts We've Learned About Police Shootings Over The Past Year

[shadowraiths]

These are the kinds of things that are on the minds of the officers, most likely:

https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/suicide-by-police-an-alarming-new-trend

n March of this year, a man wielding two meat cleavers entered a day care center in Madison, Wisconsin and slashed one of the teachers in the head, arms, and shoulders. When two veteran police officers arrived, they saw no other choice but to shoot and kill the perpetrator, Gregory E. Velasquez. The actions themselves, although deeply disturbing, are unfortunately not entirely shocking in this day and age; however, the coroner's ruling the death "suicide by police" may be for some.

Suicide by police is an alarming new trend that has police departments across the country worried, and for good reason. It seems to be occurring with more frequency—the three examples discussed below happened within the last several months.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/troubled-florida-man-commits-suicide-article-1.1933351


Troubled Florida man commits 'suicide by cop' after confronting officers with gun
Thomas Carberry, 50, was fatally shot by two Wilton Manors police officers after he had threatened to kill himself and the people around him, authorities said.

http://www.twincities.com/crime/ci_27246205/st-paul-swat-team-responds-house-near-oakland

St. Paul officer injured in 'suicide by cop' standoff doing well

Yeah, 'suicide by cop' is horrendous. Some years ago, there was a man who came into the San Mateo Sheriff's Office and handed the desk clerk a note that said something to the effect of, "If you don't shoot me, I am going to start taking you out." Not exact words, the Sheriff who was in one of my forensics classes related this incident. No one wanted to kill the man but he was brandishing a gun and they had no choice. What is esp awful about these cases is the emotional toll it takes on the officers.

 

[shadowraiths]

http://news.yahoo.com/family-mentall...234014623.html

This, from the last link, however:

Before the shooting, an officer can be heard shouting: “Get on the ****ing ground or you’re dead.” Five shots followed.

is problematic. Schizophrenia is not correlated to violence. Iow, have we taught our young men and women how to de-escalate situations such as those in the above two links? I don't think so. And this, imho, is a problem.
========================================================================================

You say that schizophrenia is not correlated to violence and yet in this case you linked, the suspect was chasing the cops around with a broomstick.

His family called 911 because they were afraid of him and could not control him. Is the cop supposed to allow an angry mentally ill man to hit him with a stick?

My brother has paranoid schizophrenia and has many violent episodes over the years. I cannot control him when he loses it. He is not connected to reality at that point in time. His inner voices control his thoughts and actions and I am no longer 'his sister' when he is in full blown episode. I am whomever he sees before him at the time.

I would like to see any of the people here complaining, anyone of them, try to make an angry mentally ill suspect comply with orders. I think they would find it is harder than they think and much scarier.

In the case of dealing with a person who is experiencing a psychotic break, it is not so much about "complying with orders," rather, it's about trying to de-escalate and determining a way to subdue them. Like they did with the net in my earlier post. Deadly force should be a last resort. Yelling at them to "get on the ground or they're f'ing dead" is certainly not going to de-escalate the situation. In extreme situations, would a tranquilizer dart work? Would it even be constitutional? I really don't know.

Part of the problem is, imho, ever since deinstitutionalization of the 60s, law enforcement have become the new caretakers, and prisons, the new asylums.

 

[SStarr33]

In the high publicity cases, it's all about the Benjamins:

Fee to Be Charged for Video of South Carolina Shooting, Publicist Says $10K

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/17/u...lina-shooting-publicist-says.html?ref=us&_r=0

Going to alert this in case WS needs to modify any of the Scott thread.

 

[katydid23]

In the case of dealing with a person who is experiencing a psychotic break, it is not so much about "complying with orders," rather, it's about trying to de-escalate and determining a way to subdue them. Like they did with the net in my earlier post. Deadly force should be a last resort. Yelling at them to "get on the ground or they're f'ing dead" is certainly not going to de-escalate the situation. In extreme situations, would a tranquilizer dart work? Would it even be constitutional? I really don't know.

Part of the problem is, imho, ever since deinstitutionalization of the 60s, law enforcement have become the new caretakers, and prisons, the new asylums.

It is hard to deescalate when the officers do not know the 'diagnosis ' of the suspect. Cops are not mental health experts. They cannot be EVERYTHING to ALL people. There are calls for them to be EMTS and Mental Health Professionals and Firemen and Marriage Counselors and Car Mechanics, all within one shift.

 

[al66pine]

In the high publicity cases, it's all about the Benjamins:
Fee to Be Charged for Video of South Carolina Shooting, Publicist Says $10K
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/17/u...lina-shooting-publicist-says.html?ref=us&_r=0 ....

sbm
From^ link:
"Cease-and-desist letters went out this week to news outlets around the world from Markson Sparks, a publicity and celebrity management company based in Sydney, Australia."
"The video, taken April 4, showed a North Charleston police officer, Michael T. Slager, shooting a man who ran from him after a traffic stop. A bystander, Feidin Santana, took the video and then turned it over to the family of the man who was killed, Walter L. Scott.""The announcement about the fee seemed to come as a surprise to Mr. Santana.
"He later recalled that his lawyer mentioned something about charging for it, but said he did not understand.
The lawyer, Todd Rutherford, said it was only fair for Mr. Santana to start getting paid for something that news outlets benefited from."

1. Question for copyright and intel-prop experts: IIUC, gen'ly,
-a videographer has copyright & intel prop rights to vid,
-his forwarding the recording to someone else/fam would not transfer intel prop rights to transferee-family,
unless he did so explicitly in writing, etc. to license or equivalent IP term.
- if that's the case here, then presumably Santana's atty negotiated this w Markson Sparks, in Sydney, Australia.
http://marksonsparks.com/
Why a company in Australia, for a vid created in US, where presumably MSM in USA would be biggest buyers?
2.
Didn't funding page for FS quote him as saying something to the effect - he did not want to benefit from vid, & he wanted Walter Scott's family to get justice, compensation, etc? (Linking that site = not allowed & I can't find link to MSM summary).
3.
Was Mr Santana surprised about getting $ from vid-use fee or surprised about announcement re this?

JM2cts and I could be wrong.


























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[Tricia]

Hey Everyone,

Let's keep on topic. This is not about anyone making money off of a video. Please stay on topic.

Thank you,
Tricia

 

[Sonya610]

I don't know much about New Orleans so I am researching it a bit now. Sorry it is so violent. That is very sad.

The New Orleans PD has always had a reputation for corruption. The "Chocolate City" (a term coined by the former Black Mayor) is also one of the most violent/dangerous cities in America. Having said that the police have done a good job protecting the French Quarter (the tiny historic tourist area) so they deserve credit for that.

Sadly it is so bad the locals make it clear to visitors which streets mark the end of the French Quarter and make it very clear you should NOT cross them especially after dark.

 

[Tawny]

I don't have a lot of faith in the credibility of these DOJ reports. JMO

Why?

Surely you jest. Almost all are unjustified? Sadly the media and those that gain from social unrest have created this perception.

No, I do not jest. Shooting someone should be the LAST resort, meaning that officer is literally about to die at the hands of the aggressor, and certainly not even a consideration if there are already 4 or 5 other officers on top of the arrestee.

I understand being LEO is stressful and dangerous, but that's the nature of the job. And it's getting even MORE dangerous because of the actions of these few LEOs who are resorting to deadly force way too soon. If people fear police, people will react irrationally. Cops need to be active and visible members of a community, not secret agents hiding in shadows watching people break laws. The are supposed to be public servants who won't blow you off if you come up to them with a question or complaint.

Anybody remember that cop who caught crap for playing football with that kid in the street? We need MORE of that, we need to build TRUST with the police, and unfortunately it's 100% on the police to start that process, but they don't seem to be willing to put in the extra miles to do it. Some of them do. The videos around Christmas of cops stopping people and gifting them $100, etc, but it needs to be small actions every single day every single shift. Help a citizen change a tire (yes, it's risky, what if it's a trap?), help someone push their car to the side of the road instead of ticketing them for obstructing traffic, etc.

In the case of dealing with a person who is experiencing a psychotic break, it is not so much about "complying with orders," rather, it's about trying to de-escalate and determining a way to subdue them. Like they did with the net in my earlier post. Deadly force should be a last resort. Yelling at them to "get on the ground or they're f'ing dead" is certainly not going to de-escalate the situation. In extreme situations, would a tranquilizer dart work? Would it even be constitutional? I really don't know.

Part of the problem is, imho, ever since deinstitutionalization of the 60s, law enforcement have become the new caretakers, and prisons, the new asylums.

BBM Yep.

No, cops aren't mental health experts, but they could call someone in who is while keeping people calm and safe. JMO

 

[Sonya610]

If people fear police, people will react irrationally.

I disagree. If they FEARED the police they would be very respectful and avoid PROVOKING the police.

Running and then tussling/resisting shows they do NOT fear the police and instead decide to get away with as much as they possibly can. The mindset of "well he can't shoot me so I might as well run" shows that. If these individuals thought the police COULD shoot them if they ran then there would be a whole lot less running going on.

 

[Brightbird]

Do cops in America get training in dealing with mental health problems? I'd assume so. I ask because it became a big issue here a few years back after a young man was shot dead for coming towards police with a knife. That was when 'suicide by cop' became a well-known thing here. I don't fault police for shooting in a situation like that. It's happened a couple of times recently, too. In one case, police were actually stabbed before they shot. I do think mental health is becoming a bigger problem and police need training in it. At least to be able to recognise an acute mental health problem and take steps to deescalate the situation with someone who's already lost touch, if possible. I don't think cops need to know a diagnosis - they're not giving mental health treatment. They don't need to be experts on mental health either. But perhaps their standard training is too aggressive for people with mental health problems.

This was a fatal shooting here recently. The dailymail link has a video of moments after the shooting. I don't know what else they could have done.

http://www.skynews.com.au/news/top-...rl-reportedly-shot-dead-in-sydney-s-west.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-zombie-like-woman-outside-Hungry-Jack-s.html

 

[Tawny]

I disagree. If they FEARED the police they would be very respectful and avoid PROVOKING the police.

Running and then tussling/resisting shows they do NOT fear the police and instead decide to get away with as much as they possibly can. The mindset of "well he can't shoot me so I might as well run" shows that. If these individuals thought the police COULD shoot them if they ran then there would be a whole lot less running going on.

Because people who are afraid of spiders or dogs or hornets react so rationally?

 

[shadowraiths]

Curbing use of deadly force by police calls for new policies, training

Two days after an unarmed black teen was shot and killed last summer in Ferguson, Mo., by a white officer, two LAPD officers made what was cryptically called an "investigative stop" of a 25-year-old black man walking down the street in the Florence neighborhood. During a tussle in which the man may have reached for a police weapon, he was shot and killed. The victim, who was unarmed, was said by his family to be mentally ill.

[...]

Rice, who has worked with former and current LAPD chiefs Bill Bratton and Charlie Beck to reform the occupying-army model of policing — and believes there's been a lot of progress — said she interviewed hundreds of officers several years ago and asked them what it meant to get assigned to South Los Angeles.

"They said, 'That means it's stick time; we get to use our batons. Down there, you can get a righteous shoot,'" said Rice. She told me that white, Latino, black and Asian officers expressed the same sentiment, and said they felt even more emboldened in the housing projects because "crime is off the charts there," so police can stretch the limits of what it takes to stifle it.

[...]

In training and practice, Downing said, the standard has been pushed "closer to what is justified by law as opposed to what is expected by the community. Thus, we see more and more, 'He reached for his waistband' rather than, 'I opted to take cover, assess, develop a tactical alternative to use of deadly force and do all in my power to avoid taking a life.'"​

link

 

[Woodland]

Not sure that you have posted anything about Denver yet shadowraiths - here is an article I stumbled across while reading about JH - the details are lacking here but from the linked article -

Mohamedbhai represented a former Denver jail inmate to whom the city paid $3.3 million in July to settle a jail abuse lawsuit.

The allegations in the lawsuit filed by Jamal Hunter were so egregious they prompted a federal judge to request a U.S. Department of Justice investigation into the city's police and the sheriff's departments.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/teen-killed-by-denver-police-cited-for-resisting-arrest-3-weeks-ago/

It would take a lot of abuse to award $3.3 million and ask for a US Department of Justice Investigation, imo.

 

[shadowraiths]

Your Son Is Deceased
The city has one of the highest rates in the country of fatal shootings by police, but no officer has been indicted.

In the five years before Christopher’s death, the Albuquerque Police Department shot thirty-eight people, killing nineteen of them. More than half were mentally ill. In Albuquerque, a city of five hundred and fifty thousand, the rate of fatal shootings by police is eight times that of New York City. Renetta vaguely remembered hearing about many of the deaths in the local media. Nearly every time, the police announced that the person who had been shot was violent, a career criminal, or mentally ill. “I just assumed that these men must have done something to merit being killed,” she said. “On the news, they relayed these really sinister stories about the men, and they’d flash these horrible pictures. They looked frightening.”

[...]

At meetings with the police chief and his deputies, Tate said he pleaded to reject applicants who seemed erratic. He said that a “common phrase was ‘Well, we got seats open, so let’s give them a try.’ ” The department began accepting candidates whose “backgrounds were so bad it was just, like, wow,” he said. There were cadets who had admitted to crimes and had been repeatedly disciplined in previous jobs. Of the sixty-three officers who joined the Albuquerque police force in 2007, ten (15%) eventually shot people.

[...]

The shooting of Michael Brown, in Ferguson, Missouri, looked almost routine to people in Albuquerque. They had seen such incidents many times before. Few people protested, and no one paid much attention. Police violence appeared to be a matter of concern only to Albuquerque’s underclass: those who are mentally ill, addicted to drugs, Native American, or Hispanic and poor. David Correia, a professor of American studies at the University of New Mexico, told me, “There’s this myth here of tri-cultural harmony—indigenous people, Mexican-Americans, and Anglos—but this precarious arrangement is built on a long history of violence against Spanish-speaking and indigenous people that still plays out.”

[...]

Samuel Walker, an expert in police accountability who was hired in 1996 to co-author one of the reports, after the police killed thirty-two people in ten years, said, “When we gave an oral presentation to the city council, I had a very strong impression that many city-council members were not interested.”

His report highlighted the department’s incompetence in responding to people with mental illnesses. The city lacks a comprehensive mental-health-care system, and cops are often called to assist people in the midst of psychotic episodes. When these people don’t follow the officers’ orders, they are sometimes beaten or shot. Grover, the former sergeant, told me that “there was a running joke within the department: don’t threaten suicide with officers, because they’ll accelerate it.”

[...]

When Mayor Richard Berry took office, in 2009, his transition team tried to draw his attention to a speech, delivered by an ethics scholar at an international conference for police chiefs, called “How Police Departments Become Corrupt.” The speech described the four stages of dysfunction in a police force. The transition team said that the department appeared to have entered the third: employees abide by the “unwritten rules of internal politics”; leaders are promoted because of their relationships, not their work; and officers “rationalize doing unethical things during conversations with each other.” In its report on the department, the transition team wrote that the department showed at least one sign of having entered the fourth stage, exhibiting a commitment to “keep corruption out of the newspapers at any cost.”

[...]

Morrison said that officers were socialized to be cynical about civilians. “We’re taught to almost dehumanize them,” she said. “It just got to the point where it’s, like, they’re a piece of ****. We don’t care if they raped a baby or were speeding in traffic—everybody’s a piece of ****.”​

link

 

[shadowraiths]

We're not seeing more police shootings, just more news coverage

Chat with a publisher or editor at one of the country's African-American newspapers, and she or he can tell you they've been covering these cases for a long time.

How long?

"We've been in business for 130 years," said Robert Bogle, president and CEO of The Philadelphia Tribune, without a hint of sarcasm.

"What is being exposed nationally is something that's been troubling us in Philadelphia as African-Americans," he said. "Yes, we have written about it. We've talked about it. This is the African-American experience, and for some reason non-African-Americans don't believe it."

[…]

It's also important to remember that there are far more good police officers than bad ones, and just like the media has failed to tell the stories about police violence against minorities, "there are officers out jumping in front of bullets and doing the right thing, and those stories aren't being told as well."

"Don't paint your whole police department as bad guys," Alexander said. "I support police, but the bad ones, we need to go in and pull those guys out. We need police, and police need community, and there's a lot of good cops doing good work out there everyday." ​

link

 

[Tawny]

That's what the black community has been saying ALL ALONG. That this isn't new behavior, and that's why they're so upset. Especially when an officer involved shooting FINALLY gets news coverage and people start tearing apart the victim and the victim's family. I can't imagine living my whole life knowing a violent truth that everyone ignores, finally seeing that truth come to light, and then others vehemently deny it and say I'm creating something out of nothing. No wonder they're p*ssed. JMVHO.

 

[Nova]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/18/us/dallas-police-fatal-shooting-mentally-ill-man-video/


This ^^^ case is a perfect example of what I am complaining about. The family of this mentally ill man called LE over a hundred times for help with their troubled son. He was a large, muscular man with a bad temper. Which is exactly why his mother and brother were afraid of him.

They called 911 over a hundred times for help trying to get him to comply with their wishes. And then, when on the 100th plus time, the cops felt threatened as he lunged at them and they shot, this family says the cops 'did not know how to deal with the mentally ill' and so they are going to sue.

Obviously, if the cops had wanted to harm him it would not have taken them over a hundred visits to the home for them to do so.

And I think the family has a lot of nerve calling the cops out as 'inept' with the mentally ill, when the family relied upon them so many times due to their own ineptness. If they are so good at dealing with the mentally unbalanced why the need for 100+ calls to 911?

Perhaps the "need" results from the fact that the family are private citizens and presumably NOT trained to deal with different types of problematic people. I don't have an opinion as to the officers' conduct in that case, but I do expect my town to give its police officers better training than I have.

 

[Nova]

I disagree. If they FEARED the police they would be very respectful and avoid PROVOKING the police.

Running and then tussling/resisting shows they do NOT fear the police and instead decide to get away with as much as they possibly can. The mindset of "well he can't shoot me so I might as well run" shows that. If these individuals thought the police COULD shoot them if they ran then there would be a whole lot less running going on.

Sonja, that sounds quite logical. But though I can't find the quote right now, somebody once said, "She who thinks individuals are primarily rational instead of emotional is fooling herself." A lot of the responses we are talking about are moments of panic and not subject to the logical equation that "the policeman is more powerful and I should obey him."

It's more like, "that taser hurts like hell--I've got to get it (or myself) away from the man."

____

* In paraphrasing the missing quote, I chose to use the female pronoun in the interest of inclusion. In the original, it is clear the speaker is making no distinction between males and females. I mention this because of the stereotype that women are more emotional. I don't believe that and neither did the original speaker.

 

[Nova]

That's what the black community has been saying ALL ALONG. That this isn't new behavior, and that's why they're so upset. Especially when an officer involved shooting FINALLY gets news coverage and people start tearing apart the victim and the victim's family. I can't imagine living my whole life knowing a violent truth that everyone ignores, finally seeing that truth come to light, and then others vehemently deny it and say I'm creating something out of nothing. No wonder they're p*ssed. JMVHO.

Tawny, I have mentioned this in other threads, but it's worth repeating: I have a friend who is my height, my intelligence and has my level of education including a graduate degree from the same university. Neither of us have ever been accused of a crime; neither has so much as a traffic ticket on his record. He was raised in Colorado in a middle class family.

But he is black and I am white. He has been stopped by policemen here in California a dozen or more times. He is almost always laid out on a nearby lawn and handcuffed with a gun to his head, usually only because he matches some vague description on the police wire. He is smart enough to be polite and ensure that none of these incidents escalated.

I on the other hand have been stopped by police TWICE in over 40 years (including 30 years in CA). In one case, I was walking in South Florida on a day when Cuban separatists set off several bombs. I had been doing heavy physical work all day and looked totally disheveled, even insane. When they asked for i.d., I produced my driver's license--which turned out to have my name misspelled! Yet I was merely warned to get my license fixed and allowed to go on my way. No guns drawn, no perp position, no handcuffs.

The other occasion was an expired inspection sticker on a car I had borrowed from a friend. Again, and though the car was not registered in my name, I was politely told to get it fixed and sent on my way.

***

Although my friend is not bitter (because his wife is Australian, he now lives there, where he encounters better treatment), he has to have a different view of the U.S. government than I do, simply because he is treated so differently by that government.

 

[EllieBee]

Re: fear equaling respect-

I grew up in a household where spankings were administered for just about every infraction. In those days it wasn't child abuse, just "discipline".

My husband, who grew up in the same era, was NEVER spanked.

I was a much more troubled and rebellious adolescent than he. I asked him why he was such a good kid with ZERO corporal discipline, whereas I SHOULD have walked the straight and narrow and yet did not.

He told me "I didn't make good choices because I was afraid of my parents. I made good choices because I loved them and wanted to please them".

That hit me like a ton of bricks. And it became the model for the way we parent. My daughter is a delight. And gives me none of the trouble I gave my parents. But then, she does not fear me as I did my parents. She loves us and wants to do what is right.

BTW, my folks are really lovely people, just from a different era and mindset. They really believed that their way was the best way. I simply believe otherwise.

All this to say, I believe the same applies to LE.

Respect garners trust. Fear garners mistrust.