NV NV - Steven T. Koecher, 30, Henderson, 13 Dec 2009 - #10

[Sin City]

In post 231 it was asked
Do scent dogs not get results in our windy and arid climate?


Fairy1, This was part of my questioning during a rant last night regarding lack of cadaver dogs present at Saturday's search. I was actually being cheeky, because I know darn well cadaver dogs are trained to find remains long long after death.

I believe the a scent dog was used during the first search at SCA, and I believe this occurred 2 wks after SK disappeared. Somebody may correct me.

I say scent dogs, because aren't they all scent dogs? Just trained diffrently?

I also read that in regard to cadaver dogs a lot can depend on the handler. Not that this matters, because a cadaver dog wasn't present at Saturday's search.

I get what you're saying about trailing dogs, area search dogs, and cadaver dogs. I'll use these terms, so that we're all on the same page.

 

[Fairy1]

Anybody seen Fasteddy4 on the thread in a while? I know he was asked to provide a copy of a certain thread posting, that was removed by the poster, to the PI. And, one of the homeowners in SCA also asked him for a copy to read.

He hasn't been here for a couple of days, but I do believe he did forward the message to which you are referring to the PI.

And just so you know, that post was NOT removed by the poster. It was removed by the moderators.

 

[Sin City]

He hasn't been here for a couple of days, but I do believe he did forward the message to which you are referring to the PI.

And just so you know, that post was NOT removed by the poster. It was removed by the moderators.

Oic...I missed the chance to read the post.

 

[RubyRed]

Sarx confirmed it, more than one dog should have been used in SCA. We know Steven walked on that street. A dog might have been able to follow where he went.The ball was definitely dropped.

 

[guitar3]

I think the presence of those dogs at the search last weekend are causing some confusion. Granted, I wasn't there of course, but it sounds like the PI and a couple of searchers just brought their pet dogs along so they could get some fresh air and some exercise. Considering this was potentially a crime scene and there was a chance Steven's remains were out there, I find this kind of irresponsible, especially of the PI, who really should know better. I just find it strange that people would think a search for human remains is a good opportunity to bring their dog along 'for fun'. It was a search after all, not a Saturday picnic. IMO.

On another note, is another search planned? I am just recalling Naegle's post from a few days ago where she warned WSleuthers to, and I'm paraphrasing, stay out of the area that was searched and out of SCA itself because it is the site of an active criminal investigation. This is also confusing to me. If they think there is more terrain that needs to be searched, and if they still think Steven or evidence of Steven is in this area, why isn't another search planned for this weekend? And why isn't LE involved? Between this, him bringing his dog along, and the PI's supposed statement that trained cadaver dogs 'wouldn't work' in finding Steven's remains (isn't that what cadaver dogs are trained for?) I'm beginning to question what this PI is all about.

The email I got back from the PI said if there was to be another search of the area it would take approximately a month to coordinate. This past one was done on such a short notice due to the "reliable" lead. As mentioned before he did a person to area ratio and it would take approximately 1,700 people to do a shoulder to shoulder search properly, 15-20 ft. apart. And that was somewhat agreeing on how the search should be done due to us getting off track when something was found & flagged. We were focused on what we were looking for but unfortunately we got off focused on the area's to be completely searched if you follow me. I have no idea though if there will be another search of that area??? I kinda got the idea they were waiting to see what was going to come back from the ME office and so on.

Sin City, just read your post and I saw the PI's blonde golden retriever, the dog that had the red bandanna that seemed to be a rottweiler/shepard mix and then there was a big brown pit bull that a woman had...I just want to get on the same page...know i'm not seeing double or triple but there were three dogs there and not one a cadaver dog

 

[Fairy1]

Oic...I missed the chance to read the post.

It was nothing but a bunch of hatred. The only reason it may have been worth anything is because the poster said he lived in the SCA neighborhood. Whether that's true or not, we don't know. I could say I live in SCA too - so could you. That doesn't make it true.

 

[Sin City]

Sarx confirmed it, more than one dog should have been used in SCA. We know Steven walked on that street. A dog might have been able to follow where he went.The ball was definitely dropped.

I don't know how many dogs were used during the first search in SCA. I do remember asking a question on this thread early on, and was told what type of dog or dogs were used, but rats if I remember. I believe Laytonian commented, and provided the information.

Laytonian, you are so sharp, and on top of things! And, we all greatly appreciate you.

 

[sarx]

For a cadaver dog or human remains detection dog (HRD for short) time of the year doesn't really matter other than the amount of time a dog and their handler can work and time of day they can work. The heat isn't going to destroy the bones, KWIM?

For a trailing dog this comes into play because how long scent sticks around is going to be tied to lots of factors. For the majority of dogs out there, if they waited 2 weeks to bring them out, even in the best of conditions (damp, cool, soft ground, etc) this would be pushing the limits of what the dog could work effectively.

Yes, they all work scent, in very different ways!

With all dogs the handler is a crucial part. A huge amount of working with dogs in SAR or LE is being able to "read" your dog. You go into training in the beginning thinking that you'll just run behind your dog and find the person, you soon figure out that more important is knowing your dog inside and out, knowing what every mannerism, every twitch, every tail movement, every look back means. Then there is the whole part where you can doubt your dog and actually pull them off a correct trail or convince the dog there aren't any remains there when there are because you let your dumb brain take over and stop trusting your dog and yourself. Which brings me to the point that if the team are not trained using every conceivable possibility you can come up, don't train blind, don't do a whole lot of things, then you end up with dogs that are very limited in their abilities and this happens all the time.

 

[Fairy1]

The email I got back from the PI said if there was to be another search of the area it would take approximately a month to coordinate. This past one was done on such a short notice due to the "reliable" lead. As mentioned before he did a person to area ratio and it would take approximately 1,700 people to do a shoulder to shoulder search properly, 15-20 ft. apart. And that was somewhat agreeing on how the search should be done due to us getting off track when something was found & flagged. We were focused on what we were looking for but unfortunately we got off focused on the area's to be completely searched if you follow me. I have no idea though if there will be another search of that area??? I kinda got the idea they were waiting to see what was going to come back from the ME office and so on.

Sin City, just read your post and I saw the PI's blonde golden retriever, the dog that had the red bandanna that seemed to be a rottweiler/shepard mix and then there was a big brown pit bull that a woman had...I just want to get on the same page...know i'm not seeing double or triple but there were three dogs there and not one a cadaver dog

I did not see a Golden Retriever on Saturday. I have one and that's not what I saw! Guess I might have missed it if it came late.

Sarx - can you shed some light on what would be considered a "professional" search? Does this sound like it was botched or staged for another purpose?

 

[sarx]

1,700 people? 15-20 ft apart?
How big of an area is this? and what is the terrain? Asking about the terrain because unless it's flat as a fritter and cement 15 to 20 feet apart is TOO FAR apart especially if you're looking for remains at this point. A proper line search is done 2 to 3 feet apart otherwise stuff gets missed.

 

[Sin City]

I did not see a Golden Retriever on Saturday. I have one and that's not what I saw! Guess I might have missed it if it came late.

Sarx - can you shed some light on what would be considered a "professional" search? Does this sound like it was botched or staged for another purpose?

So, was the big brown pit bull the PIs neighbor's dog? I remember another dog & the PI's golden lab barking at each other, but I couldn't remember what type of dog it was.

I cannot say for sure two or three dogs. I just don't remember.

I just took a look of dog pictures online, and I believe the PI's dog was an older golden lab. The PI's son was holding it on a leash when I informed them of the notebook I found, and when the son took off with a searcher on an atv the PI's wife was holding onto the dog. Than someone took it up towards the trailer.

 

[RubyRed]

Well it seems like it was inappropriate to have any of those dogs (pets) there.

 

[sarx]

Sure Fairy1
Can you give me the details on the search?
I was asked to come in to answer some dog questions so I don't have much background on this case, a little overview would be great.
He went missing 12/13/09
Where was he last seen?
How does the car come into play?
Suspicious circumstances?
When was he reported missing and by who?
When was the first search for him conducted and by who?
What happened after that?
By who and when were the PI hired?

There was a search this past wknd?
Who organized?
Who came?
Were specific instructions given?
How did you search?
Were you in teams with someone experienced?
Was there a debriefing?

If you wouldn't mind copying this and then putting in the answers, that would be great and add anything I forgot to ask that seems important.

 

[guitar3]

1,700 people? 15-20 ft apart?
How big of an area is this? and what is the terrain? Asking about the terrain because unless it's flat as a fritter and cement 15 to 20 feet apart is TOO FAR apart especially if you're looking for remains at this point. A proper line search is done 2 to 3 feet apart otherwise stuff gets missed.

I am not sue exactly how large the area was, perhaps Fairy would know? But there were area's that were pretty flat, there were washes, there were small hills. The terrain was small desert bushes, small to big rocks but if there was something to be seen you could see it unless something was dumped on it...oh, forgot to mention that the area was used as a dumping site also. We were unable to move large objects that were dumped there due to not enough man power and equipment. As mentioned earlier the search was thrown together quite quickly.

 

[sarx]

Why do they think the vic is in this area?

 

[RubyRed]

1,700 people? 15-20 ft apart?
How big of an area is this? and what is the terrain? Asking about the terrain because unless it's flat as a fritter and cement 15 to 20 feet apart is TOO FAR apart especially if you're looking for remains at this point. A proper line search is done 2 to 3 feet apart otherwise stuff gets missed.

Photos Courtesy: Rolf D. Koecher

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=10342762

 

[guitar3]

So, was the big brown pit bull the PIs neighbor's dog? I remember another dog & the PI's golden lab barking at each other, but I couldn't remember what type of dog it was.

I cannot say for sure two or three dogs. I just don't remember.

I just took a look of dog pictures online, and I believe the PI's dog was an older golden lab. The PI's son was holding it on a leash when I informed them of the notebook I found, and when the son took off with a searcher on an atv the PI's wife was holding onto the dog. Than someone took it up towards the trailer.

Yes, the brown pit bull must have been the neighbors dog. I remember when the pit & the blonde retriever got in the barking match & they had to seperate them. I didn't know they were neighbor's though. But definitely three dogs! I remember specifically asking all three owners if the dogs were cadaver dogs...all gorgeous dogs, hopefully they were of some help but not cadaver dogs!

 

[guitar3]

Why do they think the vic is in this area?

The PI was given a "liable" lead. And that was all that was repeated to us!

 

[RubyRed]

Why do they think the vic is in this area?

Here is the timeline of when Steven went missing, there are 2 youtube videos from a surveillance camera that caught him parking his car and walking away from it. Everything to do with the case is in the timeline.


http://sites.google.com/site/parallelcooler/home/koecher-html

 

[Sin City]

Sarx, Here's the pictures I took on Saturday, April 10, 2010 from the search, if you haven't already seen them.

http://sites.google.com/site/sincityphotoarchives