NV NV - Steven T. Koecher, 30, Henderson, 13 Dec 2009 - #10

[sarx]

Thanks for the pix, it always helps a ton.

Was this where his car was or do they believe it to be a body dump?

This is prime area for working cadaver dogs in, where are LE in all of this?

 

[RubyRed]

Thanks for the pix, it always helps a ton.

Was this where his car was or do they believe it to be a body dump?

This is prime area for working cadaver dogs in, where are LE in all of this?

IIRC His car was about 5 miles from there. It would be a body dump.

 

[Sin City]

Thanks for the pix, it always helps a ton.

Was this where his car was or do they believe it to be a body dump?

This is prime area for working cadaver dogs in, where are LE in all of this?

We've all been asking some of the same bloody questions, and we never get a convincing answer.

His car was NOT found in the second search area.

The flyer that the PI gave out to us searchers stated, "What we are looking for:" And, "What to do if any above items found:"

I have a copy of the flyer, and I'll try to scan it into my google site.

 

[Fairy1]

Sure Fairy1
Can you give me the details on the search?
I was asked to come in to answer some dog questions so I don't have much background on this case, a little overview would be great.

Thank you sarx - from the bottom of my heart. This was my first search - so I have no frame of reference.

He went missing 12/13/09
Where was he last seen?

He was last seen on a home surveillance video in Sun City Anthem, Henderson NV, at noon on 12/13. No one has ever been able to find a reason for his being there.

How does the car come into play?

The car was reported by someone in the neighborhood 4 days later. It was searched by drug dogs after Steven's family recovered it and in Salt Lake City, IIRC. Several hundred miles away and after having been searched by family members.

Suspicious circumstances?

Yes - no one knows why he was in Henderson/Las Vegas. He was supposed to be at church in St. George, UT.

When was he reported missing and by who?

He was reported missing by his parents, who were contacted when his car was found in Sun City - four days after Steven was last "seen."

When was the first search for him conducted and by who?

I believe it was the end of December (31st?) - ground, air, ATV's & dogs. Consisting of Henderson PD, Las Vegas Metro, family and the Nevada Center for Missing Loved Ones.

What happened after that?

Not much. There have been some possible sightings in the Vegas/Henderson area - nothing confirmed.

By who and when were the PI hired?

By the family, as I understand it. Don't know when. It was a surprise to me when the search was announced last week.

There was a search this past wknd?

Who organized?[/quote]

The PI.

Who came?

Family, friends, volunteers.

Were specific instructions given?

Yes...?

How did you search?

On foot - people only. ATV's went out after.

Were you in teams with someone experienced?

Teams - yes. Experienced - no.

Was there a debriefing?

No.

If you wouldn't mind copying this and then putting in the answers, that would be great and add anything I forgot to ask that seems important.

Thank you!

 

[Fairy1]

Thanks for the pix, it always helps a ton.

Was this where his car was or do they believe it to be a body dump?

This is prime area for working cadaver dogs in, where are LE in all of this?

I was told well into the search that it was believed Steven was placed in this area.

One of our members here - who was on the search Saturday and lives in the area - said it was a good 5 - 7 minute drive from the search area to where Steven's car was found.

We do not know what tip led to the search last Saturday.

 

[sarx]

First, Laytonian that is a fantastic timeline. I can't even begin to tell you how much that helps and how well organized and easy to follow it is. Those are time consuming, thank you so much.

Fairy1, thank you for answering each and every question it helps so much to get the answers I'm seeking!

Give me a few to gather my notes that I've compiled after going over the timeline video and I'll plop down what I see. I'm sure most, if not all has already been discussed, but who knows maybe a fresh set of eyes? Or maybe I'll just be re-hashing, if so I apologize!

 

[sarx]

SK's car appears to drive past at 11:54:17
A SUV drives by at 12:00:07
Six minutes pass
SK walk by at 12:00:09
The SUV is seen on video at 12:00:31 driving back by and slowing almost to a stop at the intersection of evening lights where SK had just turned on foot.
Judging by the still shots from the mailboxes and the amount of time it took the SUV to make the turn the distance from the car to evening star is 6 houses or so? Is that correct?
So, why did he stay in his car for those 6 minutes and what was the SUV doing? Was it checked out, a neighbor just being curious?
It appears that he might have something in his right hand, any info?
Why does he cross the street again on Evening Lights?
If he had an appt. on Evening Lights, was the end of the court the only place to park? Could he not park in front of the house he was going to?
Were the members of the neighborhood questioned? Did any of them have an appt for his services?
Did anyone go over his phone records and see if he had been contacted by or contacted someone in that subdivision?
How was his passport not found til the 20th of Feb? Did LE not look for it? The PI? Anyone? With a missing adult with financial troubles you're going to want to quickly eliminate or substantiate leaving the country.

What is the possible Susan Powell connection or is this not something to look into more for me?

Sincity---
The Pictures you took, thank you first of all. When was the last time water was really moving through that wash?

 

[hollyblue]

Over the past few weeks, I've read comments inferring that the timeline's logic was INHIBITING discussion - and that there would more/better discussion without it.

Some have been vocal about "knowing what happened but [they[ can't say because it doesn't fit the timeline".

Then, I read comments from people saying that a "fresh start" was needed.

Putting that all together...I figured maybe they were all right.

Time and time again, I have challenged those who disagreed with the fine points/logic of the timeline to put their own up. OR....to provide scenario(s) that fit outside the timeline BUT with links/proof of how their scenario would work.

So today, taking people at their word, I took down the constraint. Apparently, that didn't work, either. What I thought would maybe shake things up, made things worse.

For that I apologize. When I'm wrong, I'm really wrong.

...and my name ain't "Lay". That's just plain offensive to me.

I truly apologize. If you could have said something earlier I would have stopped. I had no idea.

 

[sarx]

Originally Posted by laytonian
Over the past few weeks, I've read comments inferring that the timeline's logic was INHIBITING discussion - and that there would more/better discussion without it.

Some have been vocal about "knowing what happened but [they[ can't say because it doesn't fit the timeline".

Ok, I just have to say that having a timeline of information is critical to an investigation albeit an official LE investigation or one here, it doesn't matter. Logic HAS to play a part, don't let it inhibit discussions. If something doesn't seem logical, make sense or fit the timeline, figure out why.

If someone "knows" what happened but it doesn't fit the timeline then create a new timeline with that information and then overlay them and figure out the possibilities as to why they don't match or could match.

Sorry, off my soapbox.

 

[sarx]

Fairy1, as far as the "search" goes, I certainly wouldn't classify it as an organized search. I would more classify it as concerned citizens trying to do something to help. I'm not sure what the "lead" he had was, but if I thought there was my MP out there I would not be handing a piece of paper out with some instructions and sending you on your merry way. Is there no SAR team in the area? It appears that LE either didn't think this tip was credible or aren't interested, correct? Sometimes the SAR team in an area can be convinced to treat something like this as a "training" and do the work, depends on the group.
It certainly can't hurt, but searches like this without any real help or guidance aren't generally real effective, but sometimes you just get lucky.

 

[Sin City]

SK's car appears to drive past at 11:54:17
A SUV drives by at 12:00:07
Six minutes pass
SK walk by at 12:00:09
The SUV is seen on video at 12:00:31 driving back by and slowing almost to a stop at the intersection of evening lights where SK had just turned on foot.
Judging by the still shots from the mailboxes and the amount of time it took the SUV to make the turn the distance from the car to evening star is 6 houses or so? Is that correct?

4 houses from culdesac to to ES.


So, why did he stay in his car for those 6 minutes and what was the SUV doing? Was it checked out, a neighbor just being curious?

Don't know why he stayed in his car for 6 min. The SUV, we were told, was a real estate person, and we've been told numerous times by the family and the PI that this person didn't see anything.

It appears that he might have something in his right hand, any info?

Other folks have thought that SK may have had something in his hand, but we just don't know.

Why does he cross the street again on Evening Lights?

Don't know?

If he had an appt. on Evening Lights, was the end of the court the only place to park? Could he not park in front of the house he was going to?

Don't know. We've all thought of many reasons why he may have parked in culdesac, but we just don't know.

Were the members of the neighborhood questioned? Did any of them have an appt for his services?

The family took a photo, and questioned the residents of this neighborhood without any success. Nobody saw him.

Did anyone go over his phone records and see if he had been contacted by or contacted someone in that subdivision?

His family & LE reviewed his phone records, and there wasn't anything that we were told was out of the ordinary.

How was his passport not found til the 20th of Feb? Did LE not look for it? The PI? Anyone? With a missing adult with financial troubles you're going to want to quickly eliminate or substantiate leaving the country.

At first his family thought his passport was missing, but then the family found it in the room he rented at a house in St. George. The family and one of SK's friends went through SK's room in St. George.

What is the possible Susan Powell connection or is this not something to look into more for me?

Most of us agree that SP's disappearance was caused by her husband.

Sincity---
The Pictures you took, thank you first of all. When was the last time water was really moving through that wash?

I don't know how to check the past weather in our area, but we did have rain for about a week, I want to say about a month or so ago. There is a fellow WSer who lives close to the area of the search, and he may be able to answer the question of when the last time water was really moving through those washes.

 

[hollyblue]

SK's car appears to drive past at 11:54:17
A SUV drives by at 12:00:07
Six minutes pass
SK walk by at 12:00:09
The SUV is seen on video at 12:00:31 driving back by and slowing almost to a stop at the intersection of evening lights where SK had just turned on foot.
Judging by the still shots from the mailboxes and the amount of time it took the SUV to make the turn the distance from the car to evening star is 6 houses or so? Is that correct?
So, why did he stay in his car for those 6 minutes and what was the SUV doing? Was it checked out, a neighbor just being curious?
It appears that he might have something in his right hand, any info?
Why does he cross the street again on Evening Lights?
If he had an appt. on Evening Lights, was the end of the court the only place to park? Could he not park in front of the house he was going to?
Were the members of the neighborhood questioned? Did any of them have an appt for his services?
Did anyone go over his phone records and see if he had been contacted by or contacted someone in that subdivision?
How was his passport not found til the 20th of Feb? Did LE not look for it? The PI? Anyone? With a missing adult with financial troubles you're going to want to quickly eliminate or substantiate leaving the country.

What is the possible Susan Powell connection or is this not something to look into more for me?Sincity---
The Pictures you took, thank you first of all. When was the last time water was really moving through that wash?

This is my theory, but when brought up, it is treated with disgust, distraction and ridicule. It is the "unmentionable" theory. So much objection that I think it's hinky. I've been 'scolded' on two threads and I won't discuss it further. I wouldn't even go there if I were you.

 

[Sin City]

Sarx, I will say this, I spent a lot of my time walking through a wash. The soil was very sandy, as if I were walking on a beach. There is an area one can see on mapquest of google, of this particular wash, that had IMO evidence of standing water. It was dried up when we were there.

I want to add that at approx 10:00 - 10:45am, when some of us were making our way back to the trailer, another searcher brought my attention to a smell. It was the only time I smelled this the entire time I was out there. Now, I thought maybe it was coming from the deeper area of the wash where standing water was at one time, however another searcher stepped down close to the bottom depth of the area, and when I asked if he smelled anything he said no. The wind had just picked up shortly before this, so I couldn't find the source of the smell. Plus, I know nothing about decomposition, so I didn't know if It would be too late to smell decomposing remains. I've never smelled an animal decomposing, so I had nothing to compare it to. It wasn't just the shrubs though. The wind was blowing at our back as we headed back to the trailer, so I couldn't trace the smell. Plus, I asked two other male searchers that were a bit behind me if they had smelled anything as they walked toward the trailer. They stated no. These are the two men who found one of the larger bones in the area. We were told that it seemed to be a femur...possibly dog. This item was collected by the forensic person on the scene.

It was so difficult to know what we should be marking with a flag. There were a lot of piles of debris that could hide a body IMO.

The PI did state that he had gone to the search area earlier in the week prior to the search, and looked around a bit with an ATV.

 

[hollyblue]

Originally Posted by laytonian
Over the past few weeks, I've read comments inferring that the timeline's logic was INHIBITING discussion - and that there would more/better discussion without it.

Some have been vocal about "knowing what happened but [they[ can't say because it doesn't fit the timeline".

Ok, I just have to say that having a timeline of information is critical to an investigation albeit an official LE investigation or one here, it doesn't matter. Logic HAS to play a part, don't let it inhibit discussions. If something doesn't seem logical, make sense or fit the timeline, figure out why.

If someone "knows" what happened but it doesn't fit the timeline then create a new timeline with that information and then overlay them and figure out the possibilities as to why they don't match or could match.

Sorry, off my soapbox.

Laytonian, if this has to do with our debate of the date of the 9th, (SP's Thread) the conclusion we came to was that there was a descepancy in what Mrs. Koecher said at the PC and the temple meeting that same night. I stated that I would take what was on the timeline in consideration until we had more solid proof. (One being the debit card's actual purchase time)

If the second paragraph is referring to my theory, I never said because it doesn't fit the timeline. Not everyone's will. It was because of the response I met. If it was someone else, please let it be known....it doesn't have to agree with what we have now, it can be changed if there is info to back it up. Not EVERYTHING will or has to fit together perfectly....it is an ongoing theory till proven otherwise.

 

[sarx]

Sorry Hollyblue, which theory are you referring to, the Susan Powell connection? Thanks for the heads up, but no worries, I have incredibly thick skin and can't be turned off of anything until I decide for myself there is nothing there.

Sincity, it's likely given the desert climate and arid air that if there was a body it would be fully skeletonized and not smelling.
The formula is
y=1285/x (where y is the number of days it takes to
become skeletonized or mummified and x is the average
temperature in Centigrade during the decomposition
process). So, if the average temperature is 10 °C, then
1285/10 = 128.5 days for someone to become
skeletonized.

 

[Sin City]

Sorry Hollyblue, which theory are you referring to, the Susan Powell connection? Thanks for the heads up, but no worries, I have incredibly thick skin and can't be turned off of anything until I decide for myself there is nothing there.

Sincity, it's likely given the desert climate and arid air that if there was a body it would be fully skeletonized and not smelling.
The formula is
y=1285/x (where y is the number of days it takes to
become skeletonized or mummified and x is the average
temperature in Centigrade during the decomposition
process). So, if the average temperature is 10 °C, then
1285/10 = 128.5 days for someone to become
skeletonized.

Thanks Sarx! I did find this formula online last night, and that's why I hadn't mentioned this 'smell' before on the thread. I learned just what you stated, the body would be fully skeletonized and not smelling. It helps to hear it from someone with experience though.

 

[sarx]

Hollyblue, can you point me to the area where the Susan Powell stuff was talked about? There are way too many posts for me to go look at her case, I'm already going cross eyed.

 

[sarx]

Thanks Sarx! I did find this formula online last night, and that's why I hadn't mentioned this 'smell' before on the thread. I learned just what you stated, the body would be fully skeletonized and not smelling. It helps to hear it from someone with experience though.

Only if a body had been out there the whole time. Never discount or assume anything, this would be one of those times where logic could have a twist (it would be logical to think that it wouldn't smell, but if it hadn't been there the whole time, then that logic isn't wrong, it just doesn't apply, KWIM?).

 

[Sin City]

Sarx, The area near SK's home in St. George has NOT been searched, and it is near open spaces. 1734 Maplewood Way. I'm probably not supposed to post this address, but I'll take the heat.

 

[hollyblue]

Sorry Hollyblue, which theory are you referring to, the Susan Powell connection? Thanks for the heads up, but no worries, I have incredibly thick skin and can't be turned off of anything until I decide for myself there is nothing there.

Sincity, it's likely given the desert climate and arid air that if there was a body it would be fully skeletonized and not smelling.
The formula is
y=1285/x (where y is the number of days it takes to
become skeletonized or mummified and x is the average
temperature in Centigrade during the decomposition
process). So, if the average temperature is 10 °C, then
1285/10 = 128.5 days for someone to become
skeletonized.

Yes. I'm thick skinned too, and continue to believe in my theory until proven otherwise. It has been said to be a distraction on more than one occasion...so I keep it to myself.