GUILTY NV - Tammy Meyers, 44, fatally shot at her Las Vegas home, 12 Feb 2015 - #6

[SpanishInquisition]

That's not how self-defense is supposed to work. Using that logic, any murder can be justified, because "I just thought they were gonna get a gun so I had to kill them first." He shot at the guy running away. That is not self-defense.

I was responding to your comment about GJ testimony that said this: "EN didn't want him to get away, by his own admission. That's not self-defense, if you are shooting at someone who is running away because you don't want them to get away" by quoting from the sections of GJ testimony where that was discussed. After providing you with those quotes I then expressly said this in that EN could have been wrong on both counts "It's not to say what EN did was right or that EN was right in his perceptions," so don't try and attribute me saying something I didn't when I went out of my way to say I was just proving GJ testimony showing what EN meant while me providing those GJ quotes didn't mean either his actions or his perceptions were right. In fact previously on here I've said that it wasn't justified provided that only TM and BM had been in the car as was testified because that would mean the threat ceased to be imminent at that point. However, you are using the term 'murder,' which has specific legal meaning, which if it was a shooting because you thought someone was going to get a gun would be manslaughter rather than murder, which manslaughter by no means justifiable homicide but is not the same thing as murder.

 

[PaperDoll]

You have to accept this testimony as gospel which is coming from the M's. How can anybody do that when there are so many incarnations of their stories? A jury will be instructed, more than likely, that if you find part of a person's testimony to be untruthful, you may consider all of it untruthful. I'm not saying that every single thing EN says is the gospel, but there has been far less deviation and a lot more consistencies than not. The same cannot be said of the M's.



The park and school are adjacent to each other. Both parties were able to see the other. If there was a beef, I can easily see the M's going to the parking lot, circling, mirroring EN's moves. It is part of intimidation. Just because they know where he lives does not mean they would want to confront him there. He is more vulnerable in the park. I am not 100% about whether they knew it was him, but I AM 100% that this is a plausible scenario.

We haven't heard much from EN and I'm sure he told the officers more than we know from the GJ Testimony.

Then why didn't get him when he was in the park? Why did they drive off? They saw a person in the park walking back and forth, so that would have been a good opportunity right then.

 

[BellaVita]

Then why didn't get him when he was in the park? Why did they drive off? They saw a person in the park walking back and forth, so that would have been a good opportunity right then.

I repeat my thoughts:
The park and school are adjacent to each other. Both parties were able to see the other. If there was a beef, I can easily see the M's going to the parking lot, circling, mirroring EN's moves. It is part of intimidation. Just because they know where he lives does not mean they would want to confront him there. He is more vulnerable in the park. I am not 100% about whether they knew it was him, but I AM 100% that this is a plausible scenario.

The above posted is just how hotheads/people with issues behave. IMO.

 

[PaperDoll]

From Det. Mogg:
he at that point attempted
to load his firearm by racking the slide and he said
that he was ducking down, he was very scared, and he may
have racked it more than once which would mean a live
cartridge would be ejected from the gun.

He wasn't able to utilize the gun the way he wanted. It was at the first scene. I encourage everyone to read the GJ transcript in full. It takes more than one read to fully appreciate all being said. IMO.

So does this mean that his gun wasn't loaded when he left the house? Forgive me, I'm not a expert on guns :blushing: Also, in his defense if you are being shot at that would be a scary thing which may cause some nervousness and maybe this is why he couldn't load the gun properly. JMO! EN's gun was already loaded and ready to fire, BM most likely wasn't expecting any gunfire from the Audi.

 

[PaperDoll]

Yes. This. She said they were just parked. "We were parked and we didn't move." And she certainly seemed to be paying more attention to EN than any driving lessons, IMO.

They were driving in a small school parking lot, there isn't much room to really be driving. Parking, yes, room for that. They also drove around the residential area as well so maybe once they got to the parking lot they were learning others things. JMO again

 

[sonjay]

They went hunting for the road rager guy, not EN.

Well, there's no evidence that there was any road rage, nor is there any evidence that the road rager ever existed.

Also, remember, RM said in that press conference, "Mommy knew who this was."

"They knew -- mommy knew who this was, one of these people. She just didn't want it to come back here. She tried to get him to go somewhere else. Cause she was afraid."

RM is telling a partial truth there, IMO. Yes, mommy knew exactly who she was hunting for. It was being framed within the storyline that she knew who the road rager was when she went out looking for him.

But we know that neither EN nor DA is the spiky-haired dude in the road rage sketch. That dude isn't being sought by police. Two guesses why.

 

[LancelotLink]

They were driving in a small school parking lot, there isn't much room to really be driving. Parking, yes, room for that. They also drove around the residential area as well so maybe once they got to the parking lot they were learning others things. JMO again

Room for stalking, or shopping.
"What happened that was unusual?"
A. We were parked and we didn't move."

Color me skeptical.

 

[sonjay]

Room for stalking, or shopping.
"What happened that was unusual?"
A. We were parked and we didn't move."

Color me skeptical.

Yes. If that parking lot is so small that there's not room to drive in it, why would they have been having driving lessons there anyway? Wouldn't driving lessons work better in the bigger lot to the northeast of the school? Who has "driving lessons" that consist of sitting in a tiny parking lot not moving? Especially when it faces the park where the local drug dealers hang out, and even more especially when there's a much bigger parking lot more suitable to driving lessons just around the other side of the school?

 

[SpanishInquisition]

So does this mean that his gun wasn't loaded when he left the house?...EN's gun was already loaded and ready to fire, BM most likely wasn't expecting any gunfire from the Audi.

'Loaded' with guns can actually mean different things and depending on your definition of 'loaded' neither of them had loaded weapons until after the chase started. Per BM he had a clip in his gun, but was no ready to be fired, which having a gun with bullets in can be seen by people to have a loaded weapon, but legally speaking at least in some jurisdictions a gun isn't considered to be loaded until it is capable of firing. With EN per Altergott he put a clip his gun and started firing after he thought he saw a gun pointed at him, so neither of them had loaded their weapons per the statements until after they perceived an immediate threat.

 

[BellaVita]

So does this mean that his gun wasn't loaded when he left the house? Forgive me, I'm not a expert on guns :blushing: Also, in his defense if you are being shot at that would be a scary thing which may cause some nervousness and maybe this is why he couldn't load the gun properly. JMO! EN's gun was already loaded and ready to fire, BM most likely wasn't expecting any gunfire from the Audi.

Again. From GJ document:

Q. And did you ask him specifically about what
you had observed about the three expended and the one
live round inside the car?
A. I did.
Q. And what was his explanation about that?
A. He told me that when he obtained his
handgun from the dresser in his grandmother's room, that
he does not keep that handgun loaded and that when he
went out to the vehicle the gun was still not loaded.
He told me that at the time that the shots were fired
toward his vehicle from the suspect's vehicle down at
Alta and Villa Monterey that he at that point attempted
to load his firearm by racking the slide and he said
that he was ducking down, he was very scared, and he may
have racked it more than once which would mean a live

EN says he loaded and unloaded his gun multiple times depending on how high he felt the threat level was. He was in the park at this time. The threat level was directly related to the presence or absence of the Buick.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

They also drove around the residential area as well so maybe once they got to the parking lot they were learning others things. JMO again

KM in the GJ is actually contradicting what she had earlier that was in the complaint that she drove in the residential area north of the school. Per her comments in the GJ now she says they spent the entire 50 minutes at the school:

Q. And how long do you believe you and your
mother were at Walter Johnson Junior High practicing
driving?
A. About 50 minutes.

 

[PaperDoll]

Yes. If that parking lot is so small that there's not room to drive in it, why would they have been having driving lessons there anyway? Wouldn't driving lessons work better in the bigger lot to the northeast of the school? Who has "driving lessons" that consist of sitting in a tiny parking lot not moving? Especially when it faces the park where the local drug dealers hang out, and even more especially when there's a much bigger parking lot more suitable to driving lessons just around the other side of the school?

They were also driving around the neighborhood as well as in the school parking lot. Driving lessons also consist of parking. And maybe TM and KM parked the car and were talking and then they noticed EN in the park. This is just another scenario.

 

[sonjay]

KM in the GJ is actually contradicting what she had earlier that was in the complaint that she drove in the residential area north of the school. Per her comments in the GJ now she says they spent the entire 50 minutes at the school:

KM can't tell the driving lesson/road rage story the same way twice. Because it didn't happen and she's a terrible liar and she keeps trying to change the story to accommodate the facts. But her story doesn't fit the facts because it didn't happen, so she keeps trying to contort it into somehow fitting the facts.

 

[PaperDoll]

KM can't tell the driving lesson/road rage story the same way twice. Because it didn't happen and she's a terrible liar and she keeps trying to change the story to accommodate the facts. But her story doesn't fit the facts because it didn't happen, so she keeps trying to contort it into somehow fitting the facts.

So if the facts don't fit, where does KM fit into all this? Why is she even in the picture?

 

[sonjay]

So if the facts don't fit, where does KM fit into all this? Why is she even in the picture?

IMO, because they were trying to cover up the fact that BM & TM went out hunting for EN that night. They made up the driving lesson/road rage story in an attempt to hide that inconvenient fact. That's why her story doesn't make sense now, and why none of the 18 or so previous versions of her story never made sense.

 

[sonjay]

So if the facts don't fit, where does KM fit into all this? Why is she even in the picture?

Remember, originally the driving lesson/road rage story was the whole story. There was no BM in the car with his gun, no shootout over on Villa Monterey. The silver car followed TM & KM home and shot TM.

 

[newone]

It has been testified to that BM had a cell phone on him during the chase.

EN told the detective that as the guy with the beard was running toward the house, EN saw HEADS in the plural still in the car.

bbm: As I read your words, KM's words " it could have been me" echo hauntingly....((earliest MSM))

 

[PaperDoll]

IMO, because they were trying to cover up the fact that BM & TM went out hunting for EN that night. They made up the driving lesson/road rage story in an attempt to hide that inconvenient fact. That's why her story doesn't make sense now, and why none of the 18 or so previous versions of her story never made sense.

Then why not just say that TM and BM went out for a drive or something else besides including KM and a driving lesson?

 

[sonjay]

Then why not just say that TM and BM went out for a drive or something else besides including KM and a driving lesson?

You're asking me to read the minds of irrational hotheads. I don't know why they did any of what they did that night.

My WAG? TM & KM having a driving lesson and being set upon by a road rager sounds more innocent than TM & BM going for a drive for no reason at all and ending up in a shooting with the local neighborhood drug dealer.

Tell me.... if there were driving lessons and road rage, why didn't they tell the truth about TM & BM going out looking for the silver car after the road rage ended?

 

[PaperDoll]

You're asking me to read the minds of irrational hotheads. I don't know why they did any of what they did that night.

My WAG? TM & KM having a driving lesson and being set upon by a road rager sounds more innocent than TM & BM going for a drive for no reason at all and ending up in a shooting with the local neighborhood drug dealer.

Tell me.... if there were driving lessons and road rage, why didn't they tell the truth about TM & BM going out looking for the silver car after the road rage ended?

I thought they did tell, and maybe the road rage is the truth??? maybe????? Maybe there is another story that they are hiding???