GUILTY NV - Tammy Meyers, 44, fatally shot at her Las Vegas home, 12 Feb 2015 - #7

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  • #541
I disagree. This is a murder 1 case. The State of Nevada has it right. Prior conflicts don't give a person the right to go after another person and shoot them dead.

I never said it gave a person the right, but it has to do with the level of guilt. For example the most obvious example of a 'crime of passion' is killing a cheating spouse caught in the act, which them cheating doesn't give you a right kill them, but doesn't mean you get M1 either as there is a range of guilt between M1 and Manslaughter. The prior conflict that got the ball rolling on this is huge in determining if someone had cool reflection/recklessness/passion in what they did where M1 would only apply if the jury thought in the seconds involved that EN had cool reflection as opposed to the other two options. Finding that someone acted recklessly and finding them guilty of M2 or that they acted passionately and finding them guilty of Manslaughter is not saying they had a right to do what they did, but finding them guilty of serious felonies.
 
  • #542
Oh, sorry, I thought you meant to be amusing in saying that the accounts of the earlier events "don't fit well."

There is no proof that EN went to their home with deadly intentions. That's what the jury is there to decide, but it is certainly not a proven fact.

No, I don't see anything amusing in what I said. I'm a serious kind of guy when I post on these cases.

I think that the State will prove that both Nowsch and Andrews intentionally drove to the Meyers home to shoot them. Your right that the triers of fact is going to be the jury. I hope they get it right. JMO.
 
  • #543
I never said it gave a person the right, but it has to do with the level of guilt. For example the most obvious example of a 'crime of passion' is killing a cheating spouse caught in the act, which them cheating doesn't give you a right kill them, but doesn't mean you get M1 either as there is a range of guilt between M1 and Manslaughter. The prior conflict that got the ball rolling on this is huge in determining if someone had cool reflection/recklessness/passion in what they did where M1 would only apply if the jury thought in the seconds involved that EN had cool reflection as opposed to the other two options. Finding that someone acted recklessly and finding them guilty of M2 or that they acted passionately and finding them guilty of Manslaughter is not saying they had a right to do what they did, but finding them guilty of serious felonies.

We are never going agree on this so let's just agree to disagree.
 
  • #544
We have the initial police news releases, in which they reported that there was a road rager who followed TM & KM home and shot TM, and that BM came out of the house and returned fire.

Fact is, the Meyerses lied about that. They lied about it for 5 days after the shooting.

Why?

I can't imagine finding any clarity in the initial police report from the night of the event. As you pointed out above, the initial police press releases were based on the lies/omissions given to the police by the M family. If they'd told the true story on the night of the incident, I doubt the police would have been reporting based on the lying version.
This case reminds me of the old Abbott and Costello skit "Who's on first?"
 
  • #545
And if they thought the silver car was the road rager's car, they wouldn't have known the shooter was EN; in fact, they would have "known" that it wasn't EN, because EN isn't 6' tall and 180 lbs. and doesn't have spiky hair.

If KM really saw a spiky-haired 6'-tall dude, and if they really thought the silver car in the chase and shootout was the same car, they would have totally dismissed the idea that it could have been EN.

And... he's obviously not one of the two black people that somehow mysteriously disappeared from the story. Man I'd love to have been a fly on the wall at the discussion that happened before the police took the INITIAL statements because I seriously cannot imagine conspiring to tell those lies as my mom lay dying, or while she was being loaded into an ambulance. That's what really stumps me...how could they have had time or presence of mind to make this stuff up? Is there a huge time gap I am missing? I get it...the reason everything's so contradictory is because it's untrue and changed over time. But WHEN could they have had time to decide on what to tell the police and discussed why telling the truth wouldn't have been in their best interests? When?
Which leads me to believe, like many others, that there must have been an extremely good reason to lie in such short order. I just don't get it. I cannot wrap my mind around how those stories came to be.
 
  • #546
We have the initial police news releases, in which they reported that there was a road rager who followed TM & KM home and shot TM, and that BM came out of the house and returned fire.

Fact is, the Meyerses lied about that. They lied about it for 5 days after the shooting.

Why?


First off I don't believe at that time the police had all the facts, JMO, and IMO the road rager did follow them home because TM and BM thought the Audi they spotted parked near the school WAS the road rager guy. That is the way I look at this story.
 
  • #547
Whether or not EN went home depends on what time you think the video happened, which I recognize what time you think that video happened. If however that video that LE IDed as the shooter was the shooter and the time is correct at 11:22 PM, EN did drive by his home with a spotlight to see if anyone was there and it was in scouting the neighborhood to be sure that the Buick was no longer a threat to his home that he ran into the Buick.

Did EN ever say to the police he went home? IIRC LE said he didn't go home at all to check on his family..
 
  • #548
I can't imagine finding any clarity in the initial police report from the night of the event. As you pointed out above, the initial police press releases were based on the lies/omissions given to the police by the M family. If they'd told the true story on the night of the incident, I doubt the police would have been reporting based on the lying version.
This case reminds me of the old Abbott and Costello skit "Who's on first?"


bbm: couldn't agree more with that!
 
  • #549
EN saw them on Cherry River. There is no testimony I know of saying he saw them turn onto Carmel. Only a theory of Mogg. By EN's account, he believed the Buick was headed to his home. That would mean he thought the Buick was heading straight on Cherry River and passing by Carmel in the process.

Correct, EN didn't say that, Mogg did and I believe him. I do not believe the Audi just happened to make a wrong turn on Mt. Shasta. Why were there so many shots fired from EN's gun and only 3 from BM's? EN, IMO, took the 1st shot because he said he saw a person running from the car to the house, he didn't say he saw a gun pointed at him, in fact he said no one took shots at him. He could have left the cul-de-sac and could have gotten away, IMO. I do not believe the Meyers would have gone out to chase them and to get in a gun battle otherwise they would have done so at the 1st shooting, or even before the 1st shooting.
 
  • #550
Oh, sorry, I thought you meant to be amusing in saying that the accounts of the earlier events "don't fit well."

There is no proof that EN went to their home with deadly intentions. That's what the jury is there to decide, but it is certainly not a proven fact.

EN said he shot off 22 rounds on the cul-de-sac, that is deadly intentions to me. He shot a person RUNNING from their car trying to get inside their home. He shot at "heads" in the car, that is deadly intentions. Only 3 shots were fired from BM's gun and it was on his own property. The Audi fired shots at them the 1st time, Buick fled the scene. Proof is, TM is dead from a gun shot to the head from one of many bullets EN fired. Not one bullet hit the Audi driver or EN from BM's gun.
 
  • #551
Did EN ever say to the police he went home? IIRC LE said he didn't go home at all to check on his family..

We don't know what exactly EN said as we're getting it filtered by someone testifying against him. Mogg says that EN didn't go to his home, but that doesn't preclude EN driving by his home while shining a spotlight from the street. This is the problem with non-adversarial GJ testimony as there is no cross-examination of it, but it is just one side saying what they want to say unchallenged. Any number of things that aren't clear in the testimony could be cleared up during cross-examination.
 
  • #552
EN said he shot off 22 rounds on the cul-de-sac, that is deadly intentions to me. He shot a person RUNNING from their car trying to get inside their home. He shot at "heads" in the car, that is deadly intentions. Only 3 shots were fired from BM's gun and it was on his own property. The Audi fired shots at them the 1st time, Buick fled the scene. Proof is, TM is dead from a gun shot to the head from one of many bullets EN fired. Not one bullet hit the Audi driver or EN from BM's gun.

Yes. Shooting 22 rounds means that Nowsch had to reload at least once. To me that suggests that he hadn't fulfilled his desire for death with the first magazine so he reloaded another and continued to fire. Sounds like Murder One to me.

JMO.
 
  • #553
EN said he shot off 22 rounds on the cul-de-sac, that is deadly intentions to me.

There's actually no physical evidence of 22 rounds being fired off the entire night between the combined EN and BM. If TM did fire that many rounds on Mt Shasta, then the crime scene was compromised by the time CSI worked on it.
 
  • #554
EN said he shot off 22 rounds on the cul-de-sac, that is deadly intentions to me. He shot a person RUNNING from their car trying to get inside their home. He shot at "heads" in the car, that is deadly intentions. Only 3 shots were fired from BM's gun and it was on his own property. The Audi fired shots at them the 1st time, Buick fled the scene. Proof is, TM is dead from a gun shot to the head from one of many bullets EN fired. Not one bullet hit the Audi driver or EN from BM's gun.



Not only did ''not one bullet hit the Audi driver'' but we don't know for certain if there was a bullet hole to the Audi ((RM indicated that he thought he may have hit the car)). We have no proof of the Audi with the damage ((is LE keeping that evidence under wraps at this point??))

There are lot of unknowns to me at this point
 
  • #555
Here is a phrase I'll bet we will be hearing in this case:
Mitigating Circumstances

Here are some common mitigating circumstances. The list is far from exclusive.
Minor role. The defendant played a relatively minor role in the crime. For example, suppose Pete received $20 for knowingly driving a codefendant to a location where the latter made a drug deal. At sentencing for his conviction for transporting methamphetamine, Pete has a good argument that his small role in the criminal activity is a mitigating circumstance.
Victim culpability. The victim willingly participated in the crime or initiated the events leading to it. If Domingo started a fight by attacking Walter and Walter responded with more force than was necessary to defend himself, this factor would come into play at Walt’s assault-and-battery sentencing.
Unusual circumstance. The defendant committed the crime because of temporary emotional difficulty or significant provocation. This circumstance applies when a defendant acts out while under extreme stress. For example, suppose that Jesse, in anguish over the recent death of his girlfriend, stole some beer from a liquor store so he could get drunk.
No harm. The defendant didn’t hurt anyone and committed the crime in a manner unlikely to cause harm. The no-harm circumstance would be relevant if Hank carjacked a driver by sternly ordering her out of her car, but carefully and gently helped her out of it.
Lack of record. The defendant doesn’t have a criminal record, or only has a relatively minor record.
Relative necessity. The defendant acted out of a desire to provide life necessities. This circumstance would be relevant for someone who stole a rotisserie chicken from the grocery store so that he could feed his starving family.
Remorse. The defendant accepted responsibility and showed remorse. A defendant who confesses upon arrest and is contrite in court has this factor in his favor.
Difficult personal history. The defendant’s unique upbringing or family circumstances led to her criminal conduct. For example, a lawyer might try to persuade a sentencing judge that the client’s violent acts are attributable to abuse she suffered as a child.
Addiction. Drug or alcohol addiction contributed to—but wasn’t just an incentive or excuse to commit—the crime. Addiction would be a mitigating factor for Bubbles’s theft conviction if he had showed a concerted effort at rehabilitation, but relapsed into drug use and stole some copper wire while high.

Source:http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/mitigating-circumstances-sentencing.html

There are also lots of articles out there on both mitigating and extenuating circumstances.

It should be interesting to see how these two aspects of law effect this case. Also how reasonable doubt (as to premeditation) factors in. And yes, the previous poster above was correct...it only takes one juror who has reasonable doubt to acquit or hang up the jury. We've seen this in some very high-profile cases before. Those are a few reasons I believe there will be a good plea deal offered. MY OPINION ONLY.
 
  • #556
First off I don't believe at that time the police had all the facts, JMO, and IMO the road rager did follow them home because TM and BM thought the Audi they spotted parked near the school WAS the road rager guy. That is the way I look at this story.

That is correct, the police did not have all the facts, because the Meyerses lied to them about what happened. You can look at this event sideways, upside down, or swinging from a tree at midnight during the first full moon after the spring equinox, and it will not change the fact that the Meyerses lied to the police that night about what happened.

It's theoretically possible (but I think unlikely almost the point of impossibility) that the Meyerses thought that the silver car that they went hunting for and that then did follow them home and shoot TM was the same silver car that allegedly road raged TM, but they failed completely to tell police that TM & BM went out hunting for the silver car with BM's gun, that they chased the silver car, and that the silver car shot at them over on Villa Monterey.

Nope, what they told police was that the silver car road raged TM & KM, followed TM and KM home, and shot TM. Oh, and that BM came out of the house with his gun to return fire.

Why did they lie to police that night?
 
  • #557
BBM: Yes, it is unclear :) Why would Mogg say, and I believe him, that the Audi could have spotted the Buick turning on Mt. Shasta, after all he drove that area to investigate, I, too, drove it so I can see how EN looked up/down (lol) Carmel Peak. IIRC EN said after he fired at the 1st shooting that the Buick backed up and went down the street so I'm sure once the Audi left the scene on Alta, he looked on Carmel Peak to see if he could spot the Buick and he did. MOO! ;) :crazy:

EN told Mogg he saw the Buick on Cherry River. Mogg says he COULD HAVE seen it on Carmel. IMO, EN thought the Buick was headed to his house. If that's what EN thought (and I believe that based on what he told Mogg) then he had no reason to believe the Buick would be on Carmel. It's in the wrong direction.
 
  • #558
I can't imagine finding any clarity in the initial police report from the night of the event. As you pointed out above, the initial police press releases were based on the lies/omissions given to the police by the M family. If they'd told the true story on the night of the incident, I doubt the police would have been reporting based on the lying version.
This case reminds me of the old Abbott and Costello skit "Who's on first?"

I'm sure you're right — there will be no clarity in the initial police report. It will be interesting, I'm sure. I can't wait to see the full police report and learn exactly what lies the Meyerses told police, but I'm sure it won't shed any light on what actually happened.

Here's what the police released on Feb. 14:

At the conclusion of the lesson, the adult female was driving home when she had a near-collision with another vehicle. There was a verbal confrontation between the victim and the other male driver.

The two females then drove to their home on Mount Shasta Circle and summoned another family member, who was armed with a handgun, to help. The preliminary investigation indicates that some time later, the suspect vehicle appeared on the street, multiple shots were fired, and the victim was struck by one round.

As of this release, no suspect or suspects have been identified and there is no definitive description of the suspect vehicle. At this juncture, this is an active, open investigation. The release of any further information may jeopardize detectives’ ability to solve the case and arrest those involved.

Detectives with the LVMPD Violent Crimes Section are seeking the public’s assistance in identifying and locating the vehicle and occupants involved in this incident. The vehicle can only be described as a four-door grey or silver sedan and may possibly have damage to the front driver’s side of the vehicle. It is also possible the car may have impact rounds from gunfire.

One of the occupants of the vehicle is described as a white male adult approximately 25 years of age. He is further described as being about 6 feet tall and weighting approximately 180 pounds. This male has dirty blonde hair worn in a spiked style and has hazel or blue eyes.

http://www.lvmpd.com/Portals/0/news/2015/021415ReleasePO036a.pdf
 
  • #559
And... he's obviously not one of the two black people that somehow mysteriously disappeared from the story. Man I'd love to have been a fly on the wall at the discussion that happened before the police took the INITIAL statements because I seriously cannot imagine conspiring to tell those lies as my mom lay dying, or while she was being loaded into an ambulance. That's what really stumps me...how could they have had time or presence of mind to make this stuff up? Is there a huge time gap I am missing? I get it...the reason everything's so contradictory is because it's untrue and changed over time. But WHEN could they have had time to decide on what to tell the police and discussed why telling the truth wouldn't have been in their best interests? When?
Which leads me to believe, like many others, that there must have been an extremely good reason to lie in such short order. I just don't get it. I cannot wrap my mind around how those stories came to be.

That's a large part of why I believe that there were no driving lessons and no road rage, and that KM was in the car with TM & BM for the entire event.

I believe that they (the three of them: TM, BM, & KM) took BM's gun and went looking for EN. I don't know the reason, but for whatever reason, they did so. They found EN at the park, he called his friend with the Audi, after he got in the Audi they chased him, EN fired at them, and it went from there.

After the shooting, they had precious little time to concoct a cover story. They decided BM needed to be erased from the picture, because he was the one who took his gun, so they needed a reason for TM & KM to be out that late at the park. Driving lessons and road rage popped into their heads. It was a story that was very quickly concocted. And very simple: for every significant event in the real story, KM simply morphed it into something in which she and her mom were innocent victims and BM wasn't in the picture.

The stories correlate very closely, all the way down to the brief delay after they got back to the cul de sac, and then looking east and seeing the silver car driving on Carmel Peak as it approached Mt. Shasta.

In KM's story, the green car got back to the cul de sac, and she saw the silver car driving on Carmel Peak and "some time later" the silver car appeared in the cul de sac, and KM (but not TM) had time to run inside before the shooting.

In BM's story, the green car got back to the cul de sac, and he had time to run around to the driver's side and "try" to get his mom out of the car, then he saw the silver car driving on Carmel Peak, then BM (but not TM) had time to run toward the house before the shooting.

IMO, it's plain as day that all 3 of them were in that car for the chase and shootings, and the driving lesson/road rage story was concocted as a cover up to remove BM from the car and conceal the true reason they went to the park looking for EN. JMO, MOO, IMO and all that jazz.
 
  • #560
Correct, EN didn't say that, Mogg did and I believe him. I do not believe the Audi just happened to make a wrong turn on Mt. Shasta. Why were there so many shots fired from EN's gun and only 3 from BM's? EN, IMO, took the 1st shot because he said he saw a person running from the car to the house, he didn't say he saw a gun pointed at him, in fact he said no one took shots at him. He could have left the cul-de-sac and could have gotten away, IMO. I do not believe the Meyers would have gone out to chase them and to get in a gun battle otherwise they would have done so at the 1st shooting, or even before the 1st shooting.

I've still seen no satisfactory explanation for why the Meyerses took a gun and went to chase EN in the silver car. Why take a gun and go chase somebody? The only way you could not expect to get into a gun battle when you do that is if you think the guy you're going to chase isn't armed.

I still wonder how that night would have ended if EN had not had a gun with him. The Meyerses took a gun and went looking for him, and chased him! And then lied to police about it! The Meyerses do not have clean hands. The Meyerses were the original-original aggressors. EN was able to turn the tables on them because he also had a gun, but he's not the one who set out from his home that night with the intention of stalking and then chasing somebody.
 
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