NY - Ghislaine Maxwell, Jeffrey Epstein confidante, arrested on Sex Abuse charges, Jul 2020 #5

  • #261

Thanks, very interesting to see the actual jury questionnaire he filled out and to see the actual questions the judge asked him.

I don't think the judge allowed the defense to question him enough, which is surprising to me:
 

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  • #262
what a surprise the idiot lied...
I think we need context and his point of view before passing judgment.
a. at the time he filled out the questionnaire, he might not have known
b. he might have been so traumatized, he didn't want to connect in the moment with the reality that he had been abused
c. in that moment, he might have been in minimizing or denial mode
d. he might have dissociated in that moment; this is not rare for assault victims
e. he might have had a brain *** and only went to "women and sexual abuse" instead of boys, men, or himself. After all, the case is largely about female sexual abuse.
f. he might have missed the word "he"; I did when I first read it.
g. do we know if he came from a family with English as the native language; were other languages spoken in the home? How you read stuff like this can depend on how language is used in your orbit.
h. he might have interpreted that question 60 ways to Sunday. Indeed, every single juror should have said yes to that question if they were being real. I mean, how many people do you know who have NOBODY in their orbit who has been sexually harassed, sexually abused, or sexually assaulted? With something like 100% of women being sexually harassed in this country, e.g. by unwelcome come-ons at work (not to mention the large percentage of sexual assaults)......

From the judge's opinions so far, it seems like the approach is nuanced, which is as I think it should be. GM and her team want it to be black and white so they can have a do-over. The media want it to be black and white because it's dramatic and sound-bite-y. But memories and experiences and how you speak and think about them are a nuanced thing: they're not black and white.
 
  • #263
I think we need context and his point of view before passing judgment.
a. at the time he filled out the questionnaire, he might not have known
b. he might have been so traumatized, he didn't want to connect in the moment with the reality that he had been abused
c. in that moment, he might have been in minimizing or denial mode
d. he might have dissociated in that moment; this is not rare for assault victims
e. he might have had a brain *** and only went to "women and sexual abuse" instead of boys, men, or himself. After all, the case is largely about female sexual abuse.
f. he might have missed the word "he"; I did when I first read it.
g. do we know if he came from a family with English as the native language; were other languages spoken in the home? How you read stuff like this can depend on how language is used in your orbit.
h. he might have interpreted that question 60 ways to Sunday. Indeed, every single juror should have said yes to that question if they were being real. I mean, how many people do you know who have NOBODY in their orbit who has been sexually harassed, sexually abused, or sexually assaulted? With something like 100% of women being sexually harassed in this country, e.g. by unwelcome come-ons at work (not to mention the large percentage of sexual assaults)......

From the judge's opinions so far, it seems like the approach is nuanced, which is as I think it should be. GM and her team want it to be black and white so they can have a do-over. The media want it to be black and white because it's dramatic and sound-bite-y. But memories and experiences and how you speak and think about them are a nuanced thing: they're not black and white.

I am sorry but we can make all the excuses we like but the simple fact is he said..had he seen it he would have told the truth. He DID NOT do this!! As for English not being his native language seriously?? he managed to answer the other questions easy enough and managed to know the language enough to sell his story to several British news papers! He has possibly blown the case and for what? fame? money?
 
  • #264
Also out of curiousity would he not been reminded of his answers when he was in front of the Judge being questioned for Jury duty? why would he not s ay then if so? why did he rush to the papers to sell his story because...if he had suddenly remembered during the court case as has been suggested...instead of running to the Mail maybe he should instead have told the Judge the truth instead.
 
  • #265
I am sorry but we can make all the excuses we like but the simple fact is he said..had he seen it he would have told the truth. He DID NOT do this!! As for English not being his native language seriously?? he managed to answer the other questions easy enough and managed to know the language enough to sell his story to several British news papers! He has possibly blown the case and for what? fame? money?
I speak natively two different English languages (UK and US); with that, I sometimes don't understand instructions if I'm in one mode and see them in another. I used to do this frequently. So, no, I don't assume someone can catch everything in a sentence even if their English is tip top.
There are also many psychological reasons why a person fails to "see" something, especially in the arena of a trauma. The judge with her care and attention to nuance is all-important here.
So, as I stated, none of this problem is black and white, though GM wants it to be thought of that way.
Also, let's not forget the possibility that the GM team actually generated this conflab....

And, let me ask this again: "Why didn't every juror say YES to that question?" They were ALL lying?
 
  • #266
I speak natively two different English languages (UK and US); with that, I sometimes don't understand instructions if I'm in one mode and see them in another. I used to do this frequently. So, no, I don't assume someone can catch everything in a sentence even if their English is tip top.
There are also many psychological reasons why a person fails to "see" something, especially in the arena of a trauma. The judge with her care and attention to nuance is all-important here.
So, as I stated, none of this problem is black and white, though GM wants it to be thought of that way.
Also, let's not forget the possibility that the GM team actually generated this conflab....

And, let me ask this again: "Why didn't every juror say YES to that question?" They were ALL lying?

You actually didnt answer my question...and who says they were all lieing? and did the others sell the stories or make a big deal of influencing the jury? only one did from what I have read. There is nothing that suggests this guy wasnt American with English as his first language.
 
  • #267
what a surprise the idiot lied...

I have to say I'm not ok with juror bashing. He's obviously messed up his jury questionnaire, but nothing that we know shows he's done it deliberately.
 
  • #268
I have to say I'm not ok with juror bashing. He's obviously messed up his jury questionnaire, but nothing that we know shows he's done it deliberately.

Honestly I wouldnt have minded so much had he not sold his story to the papers over here. He denied it asked questions about the sex abuse and then when showed the questions by Daily Mail he said if he had seen the question he would have answered it honestly which we know...he didnt. What I dont understand is...at the point he went before the judge to be asked questions wasnt he shown what he had said? He did say he raced through it which COULD explain maybe but surely you should take time when answering things like this? For the record I think Jurors do a fantastic job and felt sorry for the ones in this case at time. They do a pretty thankless task IMO which is one reason why this annoys me as potentially those people may have sat there for weeks for nothing IF this has to be retried.
 
  • #269
Honestly I wouldnt have minded so much had he not sold his story to the papers over here. He denied it asked questions about the sex abuse and then when showed the questions by Daily Mail he said if he had seen the question he would have answered it honestly which we know...he didnt. What I dont understand is...at the point he went before the judge to be asked questions wasnt he shown what he had said? He did say he raced through it which COULD explain maybe but surely you should take time when answering things like this? For the record I think Jurors do a fantastic job and felt sorry for the ones in this case at time. They do a pretty thankless task IMO which is one reason why this annoys me as potentially those people may have sat there for weeks for nothing IF this has to be retried.

Quote:
"What I dont understand is...at the point he went before the judge to be asked questions wasnt he shown what he had said?"

Because he answered no to experiencing abuse, the judge didn't ask him follow up questions about it. Had he answered truthfully the judge could have questioned him about it.

Here is what the judge asked him, it's about how he said he had heard about the Case. He was honest about hearing about the Case so the judge knew to ask him about it.

voir dire:

https://storage.courtlistener.com/r...d.539612/gov.uscourts.nysd.539612.613.2_3.pdf
 
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  • #270
Quote:
"What I dont understand is...at the point he went before the judge to be asked questions wasnt he shown what he had said?"

Because he answered no to experiencing abuse, the judge didn't ask him follow up questions about it. Had he answered truthfully the judge could have questioned him about it.

Here is what the judge asked him, it's about how he said he had heard about the Case. He was honest about hearing about the Case so the judge knew to ask him about it.

voir dire:

https://storage.courtlistener.com/r...d.539612/gov.uscourts.nysd.539612.613.2_3.pdf
The judge should have asked everyone who said no, then. Because EVERYONE either has had those experiences or knows someone who has. That’s statistics. Let’s see, a person’s mother, sisters, grandmothers, aunts, cousins, best friends, colleagues, girlfriends….So, everyone who said no was either skipping through the question, just like the juror in question, or was not telling the truth.
IMO GM should not have been allowed that question. It was probably designed to eliminate the entire jury pool.
 
  • #271
He denied it asked questions about the sex abuse and then when showed the questions by Daily Mail he said if he had seen the question he would have answered it honestly which we know...he didnt.
RSBM.

This points to him somehow not reading the question properly. It's a far cry from deliberate dishonesty. Why not just give jurors the benefit of the doubt, at least until we know more?

And maybe you could be a bit kinder to the victims too.
 
  • #272
I didn't even mention the victims but those victims are possibly going to have to Rego through everything when it could have been avoided and that's just heartbreaking:(
 
  • #273
Wonder who is next.
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Any further suicides would be of those who are in prison, because their life is no longer worth living. Those who are not in prison, living their lives as free as the birds, won't be suiciding. For that, they would have to feel remorse.
 
  • #274
I didn't even mention the victims but those victims are possibly going to have to Rego through everything when it could have been avoided and that's just heartbreaking:(
There is a known Epstein victim I believe you haven't been been particularly kind to, or at the least don't have any kind of empathy for. But I do agree it'll be horrible if these GM victims have to go through it all again. I'm still not comfortable with calling juror #50 an "idiot", or deliberately dishonest, until I see some proof of his intentions. Personally I think he's messed up for no reason whatsoever.

Saying that, I don't see why victims of sexual abuse shouldn't be on a jury for alleged crimes of sexual abuse. It gives valuable insight and I don't see why other jurors shouldn't benefit from that insight.
 
  • #275
There is a known Epstein victim I believe you haven't been been particularly kind to, or at the least don't have any kind of empathy for. But I do agree it'll be horrible if these GM victims have to go through it all again. I'm still not comfortable with calling juror #50 an "idiot", or deliberately dishonest, until I see some proof of his intentions. Personally I think he's messed up for no reason whatsoever.

Saying that, I don't see why victims of sexual abuse shouldn't be on a jury for alleged crimes of sexual abuse. It gives valuable insight and I don't see why other jurors shouldn't benefit from that insight.

I dont think they are saying that you cant be on a jury if you have been a victim of sexual abuse...I dont think thats the problem. I assume the thing is if you had been a victim they could ask you questions about how it would affect you and if you could be neutral and not use your own experiences etc when making a decision on the verdict and in this case they couldnt do that. I get he may have messed up but then I dont get why he sold his story. Incidentally I have never ever said I dont have empathy for victims of sex abuse and I wouldnt ever say that because I have a lot of empathy for anyone who is treated in that way.
 
  • #276
I dont think they are saying that you cant be on a jury if you have been a victim of sexual abuse...I dont think thats the problem. I assume the thing is if you had been a victim they could ask you questions about how it would affect you and if you could be neutral and not use your own experiences etc when making a decision on the verdict and in this case they couldnt do that. I get he may have messed up but then I dont get why he sold his story. Incidentally I have never ever said I dont have empathy for victims of sex abuse and I wouldnt ever say that because I have a lot of empathy for anyone who is treated in that way.
Of course, you're going to come from a place of your own experience when on a jury. Same with everyone. I mean, someone on the panel might just have an issue with those photos of GM nuzzling JE 'cos they weren't married. Someone might find jet-setters repulsive. Someone might be reminded of their mean and neglectful mother. Then there's sexual trauma.... They could all be in play in the jury room. Nothing wrong with that.
You, do, however, have to be able to consider the evidence fairly and according to the guidelines provided by the judge. You might find, on those grounds, that the defendant isn't guilty.
So, experience and capacity to sort through the case are two different things.

*****
We also don't know whether Juror 50 is correct when he claims his story played a decisive role in the jury's decision. He may be a narcissist with an 0ver-inflated ego, and see himself as the defining character in the jury universe.
In other words, whether or not he filled out the questionnaire to reflect reality may have been totally irrelevant in the outcome.
 
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  • #277
@MartaDhanis
·
juror at center of #GhislaineMaxwell bid for a new trial “will invoke his Fifth Amendment privilege against self-incrimination at the hearing” after judge Nathan ordered him to appear for a hearing on March 8, 2022, his lawyer says

eta:

And the Government informs the judge that they are seeking an order to compel Juror 50’s testimony at the hearing after juror 50 says wants to invoke the Fifth.
 

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  • #278
Maybe they could grant him immunity like in the Peterson case.

Loony jurors abound, unfortunately.
 
  • #279
From this tweet

Adam Klasfeld@KlasfeldReports

As ex-sex trafficking prosecutor
@MitchellEpner
recently told me, those Fifth Amendment invocations can't be used against the juror.

Maxwell can, however, argue that the judge can draw an inference in her favor from them, he noted.
 
  • #280
I am not judging anyone just a genuine question. It says he is going to use the Fifth amendment but can the stories he sold to the paper..using his words be used against him?
 

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