NY-LI-4 bodies on Beach-Possible SK-12/10-All id'd,4 more found 3/11 #3

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  • #561
I wondered if the shoes (trophies?) were similar in style/attraction for all the victims?

I am assuming not, because of the different times of the year that they went missing.
 
  • #562
OMG Carbuff...That list is heartbreaking.
 
  • #563
I am going to throw this out there, despite the massive geographical distance involved.

A Canadian Escort named Kera Freeland, who advertised on Craig's List, was recently found murdered in a ditch, near Toronto, Ontario.

She was last known to be on a "bad date".

The jogger who found her thought she was a "mannequin".

There was another escort found murdered in a stream near Windsor, Ontario (close to Detroit) recently also. Not sure if she advertised on Craig's List, though.

I added Kera to the list. Do you have a pointer to the other woman? I can't find her through Google.
 
  • #564
We've got this, which includes both the known victims and a number of missing women who seem similar to the known victims. Since all the known victims disappeared in the summer, we were focusing on women who went missing during the summer, but if the Atlantic City victims were killed by the same person, we should look at other times as well.

Also, I want to look north into Canada. It looks like there might be a recent cluster around Toronto. .

SBM.... THIS, what you have done Carbuff is one of the reasons I think WS's is an untapped resource for LE. Carbuff, I know that you spend a lot of time over in the "Unidentified" forum, which is SO IMPORTANT to LE and True Crime followers like us here at WS's!!! I for one, am SO thankful to you for putting this list together. It may prove to be very important as the investigation unfolds! Keep up the good work, my friend!!! What you are doing matters... a lot!
 
  • #565
Acc to a new article from yesterday she had been with him in June 2010.

Ah ok, I'm sorry. I guess I'm getting facts confused. I thought Shannon was with him once in May 2010 when she left screaming than disappeared.
 
  • #566
I am wondering if the original AC bodies were disposed at 60 foot intervals, because the SK regularily used 60 foot intervals in his occupation, and then he realized that would be a clue, so he changed it to no intervals for the most recent bodies found, and then switched it up to 500 foot intervals for the December bodies (trying to keep LE guessing?)

Maybe the 60 foot intervals are most telling. IDK
 
  • #567
Yes, I believe that would be fairly easy. I don't know Fire Island, but can see a yacht club at Saltaire, which may or may not accept transient docking. From there, it's a straight run under the Robert Moses Causeway bridge to the vacant lot in Oak Beach on the bay side with the path leading directly to JB's house. I picked that spot on FI to depart because it's roughly 5miles, which in a "No Wake" zone would mean speed limit of 5mph = one hour. If yoiu can get outside the "No Wake Zone" into a channel, you could probably do it in 15 minutes. However, please note that there's a minor issue when you arrive of no dock to moor the boat , although easy to tie up to one of the neighbor's docks either side. For that, you'd need permission from the owner, but it's neighborly thing to do and out of season, I'm sure nobody would have a problem with it.

To confirm (or refute) all the above, you'd want to check with someone who has actually navigated those waters (I have not), or at least look at the charts for 5 mph zone, minimum 4ft depth of water at mean low tide on the neighbors dock, and you'd want to check the tides and weather for that particular date. This would determine what kind of boat you could get in and how long it would take.

Sorry, I don't have time to do all that homework, but will do it if it ever points in that direction and in the meantime, hope this answers your question.


8 the fairway, oak beach, ny - Google Maps

ETA: I'm now thinking it's entirely possible that John #2 arrived at JB's by boat from Fire island, although engine noise amplifies at night, and boats have lights which are visible from occupied homes on the shore.

For more info. about Fire Island check out some of my prior posts.

Fire Island is kind of a unique place. It's not the way a lot of people are imagining it. Some people have boats there, but most of them are moored out in the bay and you have to wade out into the water to get to them, quite a distance sometimes depending on the tides. You wouldn't want to be hauling a body out in full view of whoever might be in the cottages along the bay out to a boat, hidden or not. There are places for bigger boats to dock, but they are all crammed together - again, not too private. There are also police stations pretty much near all the docks (police boats.) It's not really the kind of place where people just jet around in boats all the time, if you know what I mean.

You have to have a special permit to drive a vehicle in Fire Island, so there are some vehicles, mostly driving along the beach - e.g. for construction, or in the off-season for year round tenants. Parts of Fire Island are very desolate - there's a lot of government land where cottages can't be built in between communities - but at the same time it's kind of protected because there are no cars there, you pretty much have to come by ferry, people have been going there for years & have eyes in the back of their heads, and anything odd sticks out. The communities really are communities, even though some of them have a lot of youngish sharehouses in them (think Jersey Shore, but not quite as tacky!)

I do wonder though why Fire Island has been referenced a few times though. Was it just an error because it's relatively close to the Oak Beach area, or did they just mean the general area of Fire Island? I think that's the case - I think early articles that didn't specifically say the street or area where Shannon actually went just said something along the lines of - she went to see a client on Fire Island, meaning that general area. Because as far as I know there's no reason to believe she went there at all - she went to the Fairway.

If you know differently, let me know because I might be renting again in Fire Island this year....!!!! (or not!)
 
  • #568
do you think that john #2 is the same guy that jb's neighbor witnesses that night when jb and another man were loading a uhaul with only a tiny light on early morning around 2am?

I'm still trying to figure out which night that was, but I'm not reading anything sinister into the Uhaul to be honest, only because I have done similar on 2 separate occasions, and I can assure you there was nothing sinister being loaded. My neighbors might agree with you though that it's :crazy:

My question is still open from earlier: How do we know this was SG's first visit to JB and/ or Ocean Beach? I think possible it was not her first visit.

New question (sorry, but tying up the day's lose ends); I think we established that SG could have gone by boat from her first appointment on Fire island with John#2, to JB's house, slipped in unseen and bypassed the gated entrance sign, hence she wasn't quite sure where she was. So far so good, but how did she get to Fire island in the first place? This part isn't working out for me, but what I do think is entirely possible, is that folks on Ocean Beach fraternized with folks from Fire island, and they went back and forth visiting all the time. I also think my earlier concern of a boat at night, speeding, with lights, would be noisy and attract attention may be wrong. They have a water taxi running 24/7, so perhaps this would not have attracted attention.

It also begs the question of course if SG is in the water....pretty easy to drop her off into the channel on SK#2's way back to Fire Island. If she's weighted down, you have another lacy Petersen, could take a long time.

Sorry - too much for one day, taking a break, giving others a chance, will watch with interest!

ETA: Now sen post from snapdragon - I agree with you, I never thought of Fire island as meaning the real fire island, but now I looked at the channels between the two, i think it's an obvious place to go back and forth to visit friends. Thxs for description - very helpful. I don't see wading out to boats moored on bouys a hindrance - read the part where I say the body would have been dumped in the channel (sorry folks). None of this may be relevant of course.
 
  • #569
Does anyone have a link to or know anything about the other properties owned by Shannon's client? I looked but only found one other, but I heard he owned several. I seem to recall that another poster from way back indicated there were more, unless I'm mistaken. Does anyone know?

(Besides being curious, call me paranoid but I'd like to make sure I don't rent beside one of JB's properties this summer...!!!!)
 
  • #570
I've been pondering about where he would kill and store the bodies for a while. It must be in his house. It's definitely a place where he feels comfortable. I never believed for a second that he killed those women in the motel in which they were discovered behind. He transported them there from somewhere. If the two cases are connected then I have to ask does he live on LI or in AC? The AC victims are from AC. He must have a place there where he has no worries as he plays out his fantasy. The LI victims...only one was from LI and I think the others are from out of state.

Either he has dual residences on LI and in AC or he is a truck driver. However, I lean more towards the sk being financially well and in the beginning of the LI case I thought he was a white collar worker who lives on LI and travels to work to the city. I don't know why I feel at times that he is lawyer or a successful business man of some sort. He may even be married with kids. But for sure, he is meticulous to a point that it annoys those around him especially at work. He's quite anal retentive, a micro-manager and obsessive about things. He's just not easy to work with nor under--outside of that he's likable and nobody has anything else bad to say about him other than the complaints of working with him.

That's just my theory but what do I know?

Hi, Sistah Sleuth; actually much of your theory fits similar serial killers, especially the part that I have bold-faced.

The deep twistedness of these people is beyond comprehension.
 
  • #571
I added Kera to the list. Do you have a pointer to the other woman? I can't find her through Google.

Yes.

Actually, the 1st woman lived a "high-risk lifestyle" (not sure if ever confirmed an escort as such). Her body was found near the river.

police confirmed a body found on the banks of the Thames River near Chatham, Ont., on March 16 was that of Therssa Wilson, 30, a mother of two, who had been missing since November.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2011/03/23/17731196.html


There is another woman still missing, who was a stripper, and also lived a "high-risk lifestyle".

 
  • #572
Scandi, sorry if you already addressed this question in a prior post but I'm still unclear about something. Where did you hear who SG named in that 911 call? I don't think that information has been released yet. I listened to the radio interview and SG's sister didn't say that the person who called her mom was the person who SG named in the 911 tape.


Hi Svpernin, I might be seeing this wrong as no one agrees with me :iamashamed:

From this link: http://www.my9tv.com/dpp/my9_news/suspected-long-island-serial-killer-%27met-victims-on-craigslist%27

Snippet

"We all heard the last 911 call," said Gilbert's mother, Mari Gilbert. "[Shannan] was screaming the person's name [and saying], 'He is trying to kill me!' She was saying, 'Help me! Help me! Help me!' She was trying to escape. We know who it is."

I just read that literally, that Shannan was screaming the name of the man who was trying to kill her.

To try and tear that apart and say maybe the name of the man was given to her and was wrong is a stretch IMO

Then from the interview with Shannan's sister Sherre: http://herewomentalkradio.com/home/archives_details/650

Snippet from transcription of link

all this is from the radio interview with shannon gilbert's sister. very informative and interesting.

ps- it also mentions about the dr calling their mother about his treatment for people in that lifestyle and says shannon was there at his house and stayed the night and walked out the next day fine. the doctor called a day after they reported her missing, could be a horrible sales tactic if he was expecting her to be found. now sg's family hasn't talked to the doctor before. he calls before this was all in the news and made public.

in the interview her sister says again the doctor calls and claimed later that he never called the family and said he saw shannon.
very odd.

unless, as has been mentioned it was someone who wasn't the doctor and was trying to "hint" to the family where to look for shannon.
whether malicious intent or "helpful" (in a weird way) i don't know.



From this I believe Shannan's family thought this man who called saying he was Dr ___was the same Dr who Shannan named. I did hear Sherre say his name in her interview. And Shannan's mom says they all listened to the 911 call which would include her daughters including Sherre IMO. There might be things LE told them not to let out to the public.

And Sherre does leave that out in her last statement here in case it was someone who wasn't the Dr.

Je ne sait
 
  • #573
I'm still trying to figure out which night that was, but I'm not reading anything sinister into the Uhaul to be honest, only because I have done similar on 2 separate occasions, and I can assure you there was nothing sinister being loaded. My neighbors might agree with you though that it's :crazy:

My question is still open from earlier: How do we know this was SG's first visit to JB and/ or Ocean Beach? I think possible it was not her first visit.

New question (sorry, but tying up the day's lose ends); I think we established that SG could have gone by boat from her first appointment on Fire island with John#2, to JB's house, slipped in unseen and bypassed the gated entrance sign, hence she wasn't quite sure where she was. So far so good, but how did she get to Fire island in the first place? This part isn't working out for me, but what I do think is entirely possible, is that folks on Ocean Beach fraternized with folks from Fire island, and they went back and forth visiting all the time. I also think my earlier concern of a boat at night, speeding, with lights, would be noisy and attract attention. Maybe no with a water taxi running 24/7, this would not have attracted attention.

It also begs the question of course if SG is in the water....pretty easy to drop her off into the channel on SK#2's way back to Fire Island. If she's weighted down, you have another lacy Petersen, could take a long time.

Sorry - too much for one day, taking a break, giving others a chance, will watch with interest!

There isn't really a "boat culture" in Fire Island - people aren't jetting back and forth visiting each other. I mean, they could, but it's not really the thing. It isn't a playground for the rich kind of place, for one thing. As for the water taxi, it's a little overly priced boat that comes around once in a blue moon that you have to call for and you're lucky if they feel like coming when you need them (okay, I'm exaggerating, but they're a rip-off!) It doesn't run 24/7 - not even close. Fire Island is a LOT more rinky-dink than you all seem to realize, trust me! (That's part of its charm, actually.)

I don't think Shannon had an appt. in Fire Island. Her driver took her out to Oak Beach (not Ocean Beach, by the way - Ocean Beach is a community in Fire Island about halfway down.)

I don't think it's inconceivable that Shannon wouldn't know exactly where she is. She had a driver to take her there, so she didn't have to have it memorized. I don't drive and I never know where I'm going! I wouldn't probably know or care or remember either. She probably just knew it was in the general area of Jones Beach or Fire Island, which it was. Add to that her state of mind - frightened, panicked - and perhaps being drugged or on drugs - she's not going to come up with the exact location. That isn't unusual to me.
 
  • #574
I am wondering if the original AC bodies were disposed at 60 foot intervals, because the SK regularily used 60 foot intervals in his occupation, and then he realized that would be a clue, so he changed it to no intervals for the most recent bodies found, and then switched it up to 500 foot intervals for the December bodies (trying to keep LE guessing?)

Maybe the 60 foot intervals are most telling. IDK

Or the sum of point A to point B divided by 4. I don't think there was as much room to work with in AC which could cause the distance between the bodies to be shorter. Also IIRC, and I could be wrong, there was one body a greater distance from the others but still in a straight line. I've tried to find the exact layout in AC but having no luck.
 
  • #575
I am wondering if the original AC bodies were disposed at 60 foot intervals, because the SK regularily used 60 foot intervals in his occupation, and then he realized that would be a clue, so he changed it to no intervals for the most recent bodies found, and then switched it up to 500 foot intervals for the December bodies (trying to keep LE guessing?)

Maybe the 60 foot intervals are most telling. IDK

Hi, Wondergirl. I suspect that the distance between the bodies had more to do with the pecularities of the ditching place and, in the case of the L.I. dumpings, the serial killer's use of highway markers (as a previous poster so kindly suggested). Even the direction the bodies face might have more to do simply with how they were dropped after being carried.

I think that the venomous calls to Melissa Barthelemy's sister indicate the utter obsession of this fiend. It is odd that he singled out this one victim and, indeed, one survivor.
 
  • #576
Ah ok, I'm sorry. I guess I'm getting facts confused. I thought Shannon was with him once in May 2010 when she left screaming than disappeared.


OMG, you are right. I'll delete my post and thanks.
 
  • #577
Hi, Scandi, I'm not sure that I understand. So did the houseguest say that she had been there earlier? Didn't she disappear in early May?

[Asked and answered; thanks!]
 
  • #578
  • #579
Hi Svpernin, I might be seeing this wrong as no one agrees with me :iamashamed:

From this link: http://www.my9tv.com/dpp/my9_news/suspected-long-island-serial-killer-%27met-victims-on-craigslist%27

Snippet

"We all heard the last 911 call," said Gilbert's mother, Mari Gilbert. "[Shannan] was screaming the person's name [and saying], 'He is trying to kill me!' She was saying, 'Help me! Help me! Help me!' She was trying to escape. We know who it is."

I just read that literally, that Shannan was screaming the name of the man who was trying to kill her.

To try and tear that apart and say maybe the name of the man was given to her and was wrong is a stretch IMO

Then from the interview with Shannan's sister Sherre: http://herewomentalkradio.com/home/archives_details/650

Snippet from transcription of link

all this is from the radio interview with shannon gilbert's sister. very informative and interesting.

ps- it also mentions about the dr calling their mother about his treatment for people in that lifestyle and says shannon was there at his house and stayed the night and walked out the next day fine. the doctor called a day after they reported her missing, could be a horrible sales tactic if he was expecting her to be found. now sg's family hasn't talked to the doctor before. he calls before this was all in the news and made public.

in the interview her sister says again the doctor calls and claimed later that he never called the family and said he saw shannon.
very odd.

unless, as has been mentioned it was someone who wasn't the doctor and was trying to "hint" to the family where to look for shannon.
whether malicious intent or "helpful" (in a weird way) i don't know.



From this I believe Shannan's family thought this man who called saying he was Dr ___was the same Dr who Shannan named. I did hear Sherre say his name in her interview. And Shannan's mom says they all listened to the 911 call which would include her daughters including Sherre IMO. There might be things LE told them not to let out to the public.

And Sherre does leave that out in her last statement here in case it was someone who wasn't the Dr.

Je ne sait

I still don't understand how you arrived at the conclusion that Shannan named the Dr. based on all of that. I understand that someone called her mother right after they reported her missing and said they were Dr. so and so and I get that Shannan named SOMEONE on the 911 tape but I do not believe the two were ever connected and no one has ever said who she named or that she named a Dr. That's just what I've gathered.
 
  • #580
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