NY - Officer Daniel Pantaleo used deadly chokehold on Eric Garner, Staten Island, July 2014

[jmcgladr]

When I saw the video, I thought they weren't doing much. Yes, I saw the female EMT check the pulse. Then a lot of non urgent non activity. But I do not know much about emergency medical care. When I heard that 4 were suspended ( is it? ) for their roles in it, then I realized my initial reaction was probably right . If their bosses thought they were not doing enough, then they were not. So I'm trusting that much more than my own untrained ' eye' witness of what I saw.

I have now watched the video with the full EMT interaction, and I agree that the one EMT who was looking at EG didn't seem to be doing much at all. Just like the cops weren't doing much at all before she arrived... there seemed to be no sense of urgency at all, and minutes between actions. No flurry of activity, which is what I'd expect in a case where someone is in the state EG was in.

 

[Archangel7]

If it's about "rudimentary social laws" (who defines those BTW?) why were you bringing up legal precedents in your last post? And your backing for the force used being appropriate in this specific case is....?

We the People define them. The references of law I gave clearly address your posted misconceptions about force as it relates to arrest. That is how we determine a law is broken. By way of actions compare to the legality of those actions..

 

[bwt42]

Jumping off the post above by POPS. That is the video I've watched several times. I believe I can hear EG say I can't breath twice after his head is being held down & I don't see an arm around his neck. Also, I don't see a bunch of guys siting on his chest. I'm just trying to figure out what was is going on with him. Bottom line though, from what I can see I certainly think more should have been done to save him. Again, all articles about the EMT suspensions were from July. I'm sure their cases have been resolved by now.

 

[CoolJ]

While I understand your references, the law as written is clear. There was no criminality, now if you wish to speak about possible civil culpability that is another matter.

I guess I just don't see any resisting on the part of EG in that video. Then we have the chokehold, which is against NYPD policy. Also, did they even tell him he was under arrest?

 

[SStarr33]

Unfortunately, EG saying he can't breath is meaningless because cops get complaints like this from criminals all the time.

 

[SStarr33]

I guess I just don't see any resisting on the part of EG in that video. Then we have the chokehold, which is against NYPD policy. Also, did they even tell him he was under arrest?

So when EG said, ""I'm tired of this, this ends today", you think he was turning himself in?

 

[CoolJ]

Unfortunately, EG saying he can't breath is meaningless because cops get complaints like this from criminals all the time.

Doesn't make it meaningless though. If you don't want to kill someone, when they tell you they can't breathe, let up a little for gods sakes, especially when that person is not being a threat in anyway.

 

[jmcgladr]

Unfortunately, EG saying he can't breath is meaningless because cops get complaints like this from criminals all the time.

So are you saying cops should never take it seriously when someone expresses they are having respiratory distress? Shouldn't they at least pay closer attention in the chance that it isn't a ruse?

 

[Archangel7]

Jumping off the post above by POPS. That is the video I've watched several times. I believe I can hear EG say I can't breath twice after his head is being held down & I don't see an arm around his neck. Also, I don't see a bunch of guys siting on his chest. I'm just trying to figure out what was is going on with him. Bottom line though, from what I can see I certainly think more should have been done to save him. Again, all articles about the EMT suspensions were from July. I'm sure their cases have been resolved by now.

When the an Agent of the STATE seizes a citizen they have in effect Care and Control of that citizen. As such it is troubling what transpired after the "arrest". The work doesn't stop there and there should actually be no visible difference in the care and control of EG than would be witnessed in a vehicular accident with an occupant in distress.

All are trained as 1st responders in first aide and are taught to set up a "prisoner" after take down if for no other reason than transportation.

Sadly union protection and ridiculous policing policies meets poverty, self discovery, core values, morals and criminality.

 

[SCHMAE]

Everyone's in trouble except the guy who actually did the chokehold and caused the death. It's so strange to me. Even the guy who took the video was indicted... but not the cop! I didn't see much of the EMT interaction (wasn't much of that visible on the video I saw) but it's obvious who is the one who caused the death and yet nothing... even after this cop had a very questionable history in the past, as well.

BBM What ?

 

[epiphany]

CBS News ‏@CBSNews 28m28 minutes ago
Did police and EMS do enough to save #EricGarner? A second video is raising new questions: http://cbsn.ws/1yCoKAb

From your link:

December 6, 2014, 10:01 PM

<snip> CBS News called the union president for EMTs and paramedics, Israel Miranda, who said that based on the video, more should have been done.

"There was a lack of initial intervention," Miranda said. "They were not aggressive. If they're not breathing, assist with their ventilation. This is something that is ingrained in your training."

The four EMS workers who responded to Garner are not with the New York City Fire Department's union. Two are back to work while the other two remain suspended.

BBM

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/second-tape-of-nypd-chokehold-raises-new-questions-in-eric-garner-case/

 

[CoolJ]

So when EG said, ""I'm tired of this, this ends today", you think he was turning himself in?

It certainly doesn't constitute resisting in my mind. If the law is worded in such an abstract way that you can turn those words around to mean they are resisting, those laws need changing. IMO

 

[jmcgladr]

BBM What ?

Yup. Read it a few days ago on HuffPo:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/03/ramsey-orta-indictment-eric-garner_n_6264746.html

 

[jmcgladr]

So when EG said, ""I'm tired of this, this ends today", you think he was turning himself in?

I'd characterize that as "expressing frustration." There is some indication that this officer had been harassing EG in the past.

 

[SStarr33]

Doesn't make it meaningless though. If you don't want to kill someone, when they tell you they can't breathe, let up a little for gods sakes, especially when that person is not being a threat in anyway.

At that point they didn't know if he had a gun.

Let's say he did have a gun and the cop let up on him (or any other criminal who said they couldn't breath or were hurting) and the criminal got hold of the gun and the gun went off and killed someone. Would you feel the same?

 

[SStarr33]

From your link:

December 6, 2014, 10:01 PM

<snip> CBS News called the union president for EMTs and paramedics, Israel Miranda, who said that based on the video, more should have been done.

"There was a lack of initial intervention," Miranda said. "They were not aggressive. If they're not breathing, assist with their ventilation. This is something that is ingrained in your training."

The four EMS workers who responded to Garner are not with the New York City Fire Department's union. Two are back to work while the other two remain suspended.

BBM

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/second-tape-of-nypd-chokehold-raises-new-questions-in-eric-garner-case/

They said he was breathing.

 

[epiphany]

EG should have been viewed as their PATIENT: his beef with LE/NYPD should not be of any concern to them MOO.

 

[SCHMAE]

Well to be fair, there are a number of people here on WS who are willing to give LE a pass on this too - as per usual... I am surprised but not really, I guess, after spending so much time on the MB thread. But this case seems so much more clear cut!

I agree . I wonder if it is because of video that I feel differently. Maybe with MB I'm more willing to give the LEO the benefit of the doubt and given the gj's decision, even more so. But with this case I don't see why this man had to die. I do not see why he was jumped on , tackled by many officers and seemingly failed to get prompt medical care with EMT's arrived. There seem several points when logic, cooler heads or even common sense might have stepped in to prevent his death.

ETA ''as per usual''...... this is the second such thread I've been on ws, so IDK if you can base 'usual' on exactly 2 cases. But if there are more that I've not been reading on, then I apologize.

 

[Archangel7]

I wasn't saying anything about you directly. I do find it frustrating that no matter what, people on Websleuths ALWAYS support anything law enforcement does. At least in any case I've every followed. Sometimes police actually are wrong, but you'd never know that here.

Actually I support the law. In fact every shift on the way out the door I read the reminder above it....No man is above the law and no man is below the law nor do we ask any man's permission when we ask him to obey it.

Right and truth are by definition exactly that.

 

[CoolJ]

At that point they didn't know if he had a gun.

Let's say he did have a gun and the cop let up on him (or any other criminal who said they couldn't breath or were hurting) and the criminal got hold of the gun and the gun went off and killed someone. Would you feel the same?

Back to this argument again are we? If that is the case then LE would have to assume everyone has a gun and can therefore use lethal force against anybody at anytime.