GUILTY NY - Phoenix & Luna Rodriguez, 1, twins, die in hot car, Bronx, 26 July 2019 *No jail*

[Rosegold68]

I'm not sure why you're asking questions that are clearly answered in the articles that have been linked.

They don't go all day without thinking about their kids.

Articles that have been linked......well I’m in uk and not all are available?

I have only read one where ( this father,not other cases,this one) says he ‘blanked out’
I’ve not heard he has said anymore yet you say he was exhausted and on autopilot . You also say it is fact. I refute that.

 

[gitana1]

Hold on.....so they have released a statement to say he was on autopilot and was exhausted? Which article? I missed that admission

I’m a mum of 5, was lone parent for a fair chunk of that time whilst they were small. I know what kids can make you feel.

You're intentionally misstating what I wrote. We were discussing the phenomena that is unintentional hot car deaths. Its all clearly explained in the articles.

Anyone who actually has had babies would not find it insulting, IMO, that a parent of infants can be exhausted on a particular day and move through part of it on autopilot.

I think it's pretty logical to assume that if this man didn't intentionally leave his kids there and wasn't on drugs, as a father of twin babies, a three year old, two teens who works full time, was likely exhausted that morning despite possibly having breakfast and a shower.

Anyone who has kids knows that they often wake up at night at various ages and for various reasons, not related to wanting to feed. Feeling sick. Nightmares. Teething. Wanting to snuggle.

Now double that. Plus a three year old.

Yet it's insulting to say parents of twin infants may be exhausted?

I would be surprised if they're not. I would assume if they're not they're probably tying their kids to a crib, shutting the door and putting on headphones so they don't hear them scream.

 

[gitana1]

Articles that have been linked......well I’m in uk and not all are available?

I have only read one where ( this father,not other cases,this one) says he ‘blanked out’
I’ve not heard he has said anymore yet you say he was exhausted and on autopilot . You also say it is fact. I refute that.

No ma'am. I never stated that as fact about this father. Quote me.

We were specifically having a discussion about unintentional hot car deaths in general and who they happen to and why.

However, again, it is a logical assumption that if this specific father truly left his kids in the car accidentally, that he too was exhausted that morning. Something you for some reason feel is "insulting" to say about a parent of twin infants and a toddler.

What parent isn't half the time when their kids are that age?

 

[gitana1]

@gitana1 THANK YOU.

You either understand or you don’t. I was in the “I don’t understand line”. Yes I was. I admit it. The remorse I now feel...

It was hard for me to understand as well. Especially as people never forget their cell phones. How can they forget their own kids?

But the case of Mikey in Irvine opened my eyes as to how it's possible. There are other cases of people from all walks of life. Educated, professionals, people like Mikey's parents who took every safety course terrified of something happening to their child, parents who fought hard to have their kids and were devoted to them and diligent about their safety. Etc.

If it was nothing but druggies and people who wanted to be free from their responsibility, I'd feel differently. But too many of these parents were exceptional parents until this happened. They weren't making a decision to expose their child to a known risk like a gun or an accessible pool. They weren't casually neglecting the basic needs of their kids.

It is hard to understand if you're unwilling to read articles explaining the science of how it can happen to wonderful parents and the various cases of it happening to wonderful parents.

I didn't believe it either until I decided to read and educated myself.

It may be futile to debate with those who don't want to access information about this.

That's not honest discourse. It's just arguing.

 

[Rosegold68]

its just one opinion.....thank god we all have differing ones.

im a parent.....ive never come close to doing this.

 

[Rosegold68]

are the names of the babies correct? i thought the female child was named Luna

guess ive missed that explained here too....not got time to read every single post and link given

 

[Inthedetails]

While general discussion is ensuing about whether or not it's possible to accidentally forget a child (or more than one child) in a car, THIS PARTICULAR case still has quite a few unknowns.

The father appears genuinely distraught, seems to be a loving father, obviously has a supportive spouse and extended family, works in a helping field as a professional, is a veteran, is an experienced father...in other words, he seems like a solid man who would never intentionally harm his children.

Yet, he forgot to drop the babies at daycare when he did remember the other child, and there was not one child in the back, but two. He didn't notice them when he shut the car door in the morning and he didn't notice them when he opened the car door in the evening. They are not tiny babies in their seats, but 1yo.

While I am leaning toward accident (because that is what I want to believe), we simply do not know in THIS PARTICULAR case what happened that morning before he entered the hospital for his work day.

Talking about this case - and any doubts or questions we have - does not mean that other families who experienced this tragedy were at fault for accidents. My heart truly breaks for any family who experiences a tragedy, of course.But we are a crime discussion board and we do discuss cases where car deaths are not accidents. (And we don't know in this case enough to know for sure, imo.)

jmo

 

[blue22]

I think it's odd that it's assumed that empathy and justice are mutually exclusive. I am empathetic. I understand HOW it can happen. I also don't think that the circumstances of HOW it can happen, should preclude a person of charges. A parent still neglected to do the bare minimum (remembering a child) to keep their child alive or even just OKAY. I think something can be treated as a tragedy and a crime. If it happened to me, I know without a doubt that I would be destroyed. I also believe that I should be charged with a crime. My emotional and mental response should not preclude me from the accountability of my neglect. Forgetting a child in a car IS NEGLECT. At minimum. I don't think "good parents" or "sad parents" or "distraught parents" should get a pass.

And get out of here with that cheering crap. I am disgusted by that. It was weird and wrong, and I think more will be uncovered in this case. As always. IMO.

 

[whatiknow]

You can interpret it also as parents following these protocols for the other parents wishes when it comes to rear facing seats.
Also...out of sight out of mind
Why are these kids not a top priority in their minds? Extra marital texting and a rush to get to work seem to be priorities in the cases I’ve read
To hop out and walk off before returning in a minute having remembered is one thing, but going ALL DAY with your child not crossing your mind once to jolt your memory?

Can you view the Kids and Cars website? Maybe reading more stories will enlighten you. They have several on their page.

I heard an interview when my children were tiny that made me finally realize how this happens. In that case the mom told her coworkers that her daycare might call if her child got sick again. The child she'd been up with for multiple nights before being up with his brother the night before. The child who was still in her car when she said that. She got to work believing so firmly that he was at daycare that she could talk to her coworkers about him and daycare without her mind recognizing the false memory of drop-off. Scientists who study the brain and memory have told us repeatedly that this is possible.

its just one opinion.....thank god we all have differing ones.

im a parent.....ive never come close to doing this.

The problem with an "opinion" that ignores brain science is that the more people in general who reinforce the notion that this is a problem of bad parenting the harder it is to prevent these tragedies. The key to reducing these deaths is telling new parents that this *can* happen to even to normally great parents. The key is telling parents to take precautions even when they think it can't happen to them. When taking precautions becomes the norm that good parents do even when they think it's silly, that's when we will reduce these deaths. As a side effect, if the norm is to take precautions then it will be easier to find neglect in cases where parents did not. As a result it will be more difficult for parents who are truly neglectful (or even homicidal).

 

[blue22]

Can you view the Kids and Cars website? Maybe reading more stories will enlighten you. They have several on their page.

I heard an interview when my children were tiny that made me finally realize how this happens. In that case the mom told her coworkers that her daycare might call if her child got sick again. The child she'd been up with for multiple nights before being up with his brother the night before. The child who was still in her car when she said that. She got to work believing so firmly that he was at daycare that she could talk to her coworkers about him and daycare without her mind recognizing the false memory of drop-off. Scientists who study the brain and memory have told us repeatedly that this is possible.



The problem with an "opinion" that ignores brain science is that the more people in general who reinforce the notion that this is a problem of bad parenting the harder it is to prevent these tragedies. The key to reducing these deaths is telling new parents that this *can* happen to even to normally great parents. The key is telling parents to take precautions even when they think it can't happen to them. When taking precautions becomes the norm that good parents do even when they think it's silly, that's when we will reduce these deaths. As a side effect, if the norm is to take precautions then it will be easier to find neglect in cases where parents did not. As a result it will be more difficult for parents who are truly neglectful (or even homicidal).

Scientists know very little about brain and memory. There is no universal proof that this theory exists. It is just that, a theory. An expert opinion. This is why the theory can be picked apart on stand in trial, and the scope of what can even be presented is very narrow. It is new, unproven, and so far based on very little real, tangible study. If you look at the cases they use to "prove" their theory, they all have similar and differing variables. There is absolutely no way to truly conduct a thorough scientific study on this, which is why the studies have been based solely on the parent's stories. There is no way to prove that what the parents (or caregivers) are saying is 100% the truth. If you are willing to believe the autopilot or false memory theories, than you must be willing to believe that they can have false memories of what actually happened, or not remember at all what actually happened. Once that parent gets into the car, no one can corroborate (not even themselves if you believe in false memory) what actually happened in the vehicle. There is no real way to study that.

Theory and opinion aren't fact. Not here and not in these studies. We are also ignoring one glaring thing about these studies. They fit neatly into what people want. A nice and tidy explanation that makes parents look good, and makes us feel better about the situation. Saying "they were busy and distracted" sounds a whole lot more negligent than "they were busy and distracted, because a false memory, which means they didn't forget their child." I firmly believe these scientists would like to prove their beliefs. Nothing about these studies aren't confirmation bias. IMO.

 

[Rosegold68]

Scientists getting involved? Nothing is proven on that score so I won’t be wasting valuable time reading up on what may or may not be going on in these parents heads

Gives them a get out of jail free card tho.... hey officer, it was my ‘false memory’ at fault, not me! After all, these rogue scientists are trying to make it a thing for negligent parents to hide behind.

Did parents not text each other? You know.... ‘how did drop off go’?

 

[wary]

Yes. This can happen to anyone. The problem and paradox is that it has occurred often enough that everyone should know that it can happen to them, and take steps to make sure it doesn’t. And this man is a social worker!?!?! He knows what can happen. I don’t know what LE’s reasoning was in arresting him, beyond the obvious, but to me, his job makes him more culpable.

When I have papers I need to take with me, from home, I realize that I may forget to take them. So I hide my car keys under them. It hasn’t failed once. I like the idea of tying a cord from the car seat to the driver. I’ve heard that you can set a ‘child in car’ alarm on Waze, to go off at destination. For that matter, you could set daycare as your destination, in any mapping app that talks to you—even if you know the way. My favorite idea is—take your left shoe off and toss it on the back seat. It’s an extravagant idea, but free, low-tech and certain to work—and when I compare the inconvenience to the chance of a lifetime of agony, there’s no comparison.

 

[lonetraveler]

Agreed. I read somewhere that people should give their cell phone to their baby. Like, no one would ever forget their cell phone in the backseat of the car.

"Hmm, where is my cellphone? I guess that I will check the backseat...Whoops! There is my kid!".

I think that is an excellent idea. The driver can also leave purses, briefcases, anything that they need after they leave the car, in the back seat.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Maybe he did smell something, looked around and finally saw his kids.

That's my point. Why did it take so long. Somethings wrong here. JMO

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Why I'm getting from this post is that you are simply refusing to read the articles. This is a very specific thing that happens:

1. In cars.
2. Due to driving on autopilot
3. Due to exhaustion that enables the mind to go more quickly into autopilot.
4. Due to a change in routine the morning of the drive.
5. Due to a child who is quiet that particular morning.
6. Due to rear facing car seats.

Parents often forget a myriad of things while caring for their kids. They forget the bottle in the microwave. Or that the baby has been fed or hasn't been.

The difference is the child is right there with them, they're expecting to be caring for them and the child is likely crying to remind them of their needs.

The accidental hot car death phenomena happens to exhausted parents who go on autopilot and don't recall they have their child with them, due to a confluence of specific events. The child is not supposed to be with them as they go about the day and they believe the child is safely being cared for elsewhere.

I've read the articles linked.

The excuses given are just that. Excuses.

I don't feel that the reasons given for killing these innocent children are acceptable.

When a person is responsible for caring for a child they need to make that the highest priority. Sadly that doesn't seem to be the case in these hot car deaths. JMO

 

[Inthedetails]

I've read the articles linked.

The excuses given are just that. Excuses.

I don't feel that the reasons given for killing these innocent children are acceptable.

When a person is responsible for caring for a child they need to make that the highest priority. Sadly that doesn't seem to be the case in these hot car deaths. JMO

Of course any adult in charge of a child is responsible if that child is injured under their care, whether it was an accident, neglect, or intentional.

In this particular case, I think the question is not whether he is responsible (he clearly is), but whether it was INTENTIONAL or not.

jmo

 

[gitana1]

That's my point. Why did it take so long. Somethings wrong here. JMO

How long did it take?

He wasn't arrested for murder.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

How long did it take?

He wasn't arrested for murder.

Too long. He should have noticed it as soon as he opened the door. JMO

 

[blue22]

Of course any adult in charge of a child is responsible if that child is injured under their care, whether it was an accident, neglect, or intentional.

In this particular case, I think the question is not whether he is responsible (he clearly is), but whether it was INTENTIONAL or not.

jmo

I think given the charges, it's clear LE doesn't think it's intentional. Which obviously doesn't mean he wasn't wildy neglectful. (Which the charges support.) It's totally JMO, but I think more about him will be discovered. That still doesn't mean it was intentional, but it could go to further support the charges handed.

 

[blue22]

How long did it take?

He wasn't arrested for murder.

Articles state a little less than 10 minutes.

ETA: My apologizes. They state specifically "less than 10 minutes." That's vague, so who knows. I'm sorry that I can't get the links to work