NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #1

[GoingByMyGut]

Okay, incoming ridiculously long post: I am thinking a timeline is forming and am going to try to put one together from the following posts, which I have reduced anywhere you see “...” to make my post more manageable. Also, for speed, I am placing some posters words in quotes in the timeline. All of these quotes are from the posts quoted here.

... BF/F came to my house that night to ask that I go and pick her up from the Bus Stop. It was after 10 PM and I had to ask my folks as going out after 10 PM was a big no in our house. Father took me to do the looking. We guessed that the bus came in the time between. ...

...
Just not sure of the time line from the BF/F. My home 10-ish. Movie time? Picked up from home 6-7-ish? Long time in between. Even movie would not have been long either? Most busses just made giant circles around SI.
When I search my memory my mind travels to Farrels? Ice Cream Parlor/restaurant. It was a favorite after a movie.

I cannot say for sure about the BF/F going to her home. Very foggy about that. To my recollection no. Don't know for sure if BF/F ever went back. Or what contact BF/F ever had after that night in Sept 1975. What I do know for sure is the contact that BF/F and I had.

He did say they had a fight and she stormed out of the car by the mall. He seemed angry.

Charles came over to the residents around 5pm to see a movie Sylvia at a cinema about 20 min away. ... Charles returned to the house approx. 10:30 stating that during an argument Sylvia had thrown her glasses against the dash board of the car and ran off. Eva Lwowski called the 122pct and tried to report a missing person but could not because see wasn't missing for 24 hrs. yet. Eva then got in the car and drove around the Staten Island Mall, but didn’t see her. A close family friend had also taken a ride around the Mall to look, but saw nothing. The following day, Eva went to 122 pct to make a formal missing persons report .... A week or two later the family hired a privet investigator and am not sure of the outcome of that investigation except a different version of her running off came out. Charles first said that at a stop sign, in the heat of an argument, she fled the car. The P I's version was that during a traffic jam, she then fled the car. The days and weeks following her disappearance, Charles wouldn't answer and more questions concerning Sylvia.

...
The night of the incident, the police were called after Eva returned from the Mall and not seeing Sylvia.
....

As far as the the unique heart shaped diamond engagement ring is concerned, a friend familiar with this case, gave a ride to a friend of "the BF" and he stated that he spoke with the BF and he said the he got the ring back. ...

5 PM (ASWDH) / 6-7 PM (MMQC): BF/F picks SL up from SL’s residence.

7-9 PM (presumed by me): Movie time?

9-10 PM: SL and BF/F have fight, SL storms from car near the mall/in traffic/at a stop sign.

10 PM: BF/F shows up at MMQC’s house. MMQCs father drives MMQC to the mall to look for SL. (If BF/F thought SL was at the bus stop, he must have left her very recently, no?)

10:30 PM: BF/F drives to SL’s residence and explains to Eva what happened.

10:30 -11 PM: “Eva then got in the car and drove around the Staten Island Mall, but didn’t see her.”

Close to midnight (?): “Eva Lwowski called the 122pct and tried to report a missing person but could not because see wasn't missing for 24 hrs. yet.”

Next day: “Eva went to 122 pct to make a formal missing persons report ...”

“Days and weeks” after SL disappears: “Charles wouldn't answer and more questions concerning Sylvia.”

“A week or two later:” “... the family hired a privet investigator”

An undetermined amount of time later: Ring is (purportedly) found to be back in BF/F's possession.

Does that about size up what we know? Is there more?

 

[GoingByMyGut]

BBM

That was what I initially thought... I now think it's very possible that he was still angry at that time.

I'll elaborate more once M is verified.

Okay, but the BF/F says she stormed out of the car, threw the glasses on the dash ... maybe he showed up at her house b/c he thought enough time had passed for her to cool down?

And "cool down" could also apply to other forms of emotional upset that a guy might call "angry." I have a very strong hunch, JMO, that BF/F broke off the engagement. I wish someone could verify this. BC if he did, than that could explain why mom went looking for her and was afraid for her -- for her being in that state of mind. I think this must be known to someone ...

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I still feel (and this is my own gut feeling) that he somehow must have known she was missing - when she left the car, it wasn't dark and I'm not sure how he would have known that she hadn't simply gone home.

I should add something about NYC in general, which includes how I remember Staten Island. A lot of people, especially women, didn't drive. They walked or relied on public transportation. If you got on a bus, you would see business men in suits and ties, and mothers with their children juggling grocery bags, teenagers, and even kids. My friend and I took the bus a few times without parents while I was still there, and I left when I was 12. (Not sure exactly how old I was). I don't think it would have been considered scary for a 23 year old woman to be alone on Richmond Avenue.

The idea that she may have been depressed was the one thing that made the acts of concern seem logical, but without that, I'm just a little conflicted on it...

BBM1: Going a little further with my above speculation of a breakup, maybe what he was feeling was guilt, that he was responsible for her state of mind, and that he was helpless to "fix" it bc he wanted to end the relationship. Out on a limb, but just thinking of ways it might work ...

BB2: Looking at the timeline, if MMQC's additions are verfified, it may well have been dark -- esp. if he expected her to be at the bus stop a bit before 10 PM. If the fight happened earlier (i.e., into the movie time), there is an unspecified window to account for -- which of course plenty of couples could fill with fighting What I am left with is, if he thought MMQC could "rescue" her from the bus stop at 10, then he must have left her very recently.

 

[rosemadderlake]

I still feel (and this is my own gut feeling) that he somehow must have known she was missing - when she left the car, it wasn't dark and I'm not sure how he would have known that she hadn't simply gone home.

I should add something about NYC in general, which includes how I remember Staten Island. A lot of people, especially women, didn't drive. They walked or relied on public transportation. If you got on a bus, you would see business men in suits and ties, and mothers with their children juggling grocery bags, teenagers, and even kids. My friend and I took the bus a few times without parents while I was still there, and I left when I was 12. (Not sure exactly how old I was). I don't think it would have been considered scary for a 23 year old woman to be alone on Richmond Avenue.

The idea that she may have been depressed was the one thing that made the acts of concern seem logical, but without that, I'm just a little conflicted on it...

A couple of things stand out here for me.

bbm 1: 'we are told' - the GF, and the parents that when she ran from the car, it wasn't dark.

bbm 2: 'Depressed', while it is a catch-all term that can have many definitions and interpretations from "clinical" to "bad day", it was stated by the Mom and/or interpreted by the police on the police report.

So I would guess Sylvia's mom was worried about something that is defined loosely as depressed on paper (PR report), but could be a variety of scenarios?

 

[rosemadderlake]

Okay, incoming ridiculously long post: I am thinking a timeline is forming and am going to try to put one together from the following posts, which I have reduced anywhere you see “...” to make my post more manageable. Also, for speed, I am placing some posters words in quotes in the timeline. All of these quotes are from the posts quoted here.

5 PM (ASWDH) / 6-7 PM (MMQC): BF/F picks SL up from SL’s residence.

7-9 PM (presumed by me): Movie time?

9-10 PM: SL and BF/F have fight, SL storms from car near the mall/in traffic/at a stop sign.

10 PM: BF/F shows up at MMQC’s house. MMQCs father drives MMQC to the mall to look for SL. (If BF/F thought SL was at the bus stop, he must have left her very recently, no?)

10:30 PM: BF/F drives to SL’s residence and explains to Eva what happened.

10:30 -11 PM: “Eva then got in the car and drove around the Staten Island Mall, but didn’t see her.”

Close to midnight (?): “Eva Lwowski called the 122pct and tried to report a missing person but could not because see wasn't missing for 24 hrs. yet.”

Next day: “Eva went to 122 pct to make a formal missing persons report ...”

“Days and weeks” after SL disappears: “Charles wouldn't answer and more questions concerning Sylvia.”

“A week or two later:” “... the family hired a privet investigator”

An undetermined amount of time later: Ring is found to be back in BF/F's possession.

Does that about size up what we know? Is there more?

Double gold crown award for long post and multi-quoting.

:goldcrown::goldcrown:

bbm: Engagement ring is said to be found... (hearsay)

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Double gold crown award for long post and multi-quoting.

:goldcrown::goldcrown:

bbm: Engagement ring is said to be found... (hearsay)

Thanks, Rose. Now all I need is two heads ddsmiley:

You are right about that. I just edited the timeline to include that the ring bit is not known (where you now see "(purportedly)" in the entry).

 

[MMQC]

This is all true, I'm waiting for someone else to chime in with the exact details.

I would but ADMIN has still not verified me. I was told not to till I was verified.

 

[Jmoose]

Yes, it is interesting how quickly she called police. I wonder what set her off? What made her think this was different than just a BF/GF spat? Why would she draw the conclusion that she'd gone missing in the space of just a few hours? Something must have felt "just not right" to her, or previous events must have added up to something for her. JMO

Maybe something she saw when the boyfriend came over?

 

[MMQC]

Yes, but after she stormed out of the car, why assume she was missing and go to people's houses to let them know so soon...

Similar question as Why did mother go to police so soon...

OK, I'm frustrated reading all this not and not saying anything.....

I think it was to establish an alibi. For the BF/F that is....

 

[GoingByMyGut]

OK, I'm frustrated reading all this not and not saying anything.....

I think it was to establish an alibi. For the BF/F that is....

We are probably all a little nervous about how to respond to you MMQC, given all the grief we got for our previous communication with an unverified insider. Have you checked your Private Messages (PMs) for a mod update on your status? The holiday may have caused them problems, since verification depends on getting through to people by phone. Sorry! Looking forward to hearing more from you.

 

[Jmoose]

Sylvia was extremely predicable in as she was so straight lace you could set you clock by her. She lived with her parents and when she did go out, she said were she was going and when she'll back back on the money. Grade A student, deans list constantly, no cavities etc.
The night of the incident, the police were called after Eva returned from the Mall and not seeing Sylvia.
As far as the overall search has now proceeded, All mental hospitals in the U.S. were checked, passport office for a match, all airport, cruise ships, charters, any means of transport out of the U. S. were checked. All prisons, missing or unidentified bodies/coroner dept all states. To this present time all rocks have been turned.

And her social security number has never been used, no drivers license renewal, etc? Does anyone know how easy it would have been at that time to obtain a new social security number? When women marry and change their name, it is semi-easy to disappear if they never again use their maiden name. But not so if they continue to use the same ss number. I wonder how hard the private investigator searched-and I think it may have been mire difficult to find someone then?

 

[Jmoose]

Okay, but the BF/F says she stormed out of the car, threw the glasses on the dash ... maybe he showed up at her house b/c he thought enough time had passed for her to cool down?

And "cool down" could also apply to other forms of emotional upset that a guy might call "angry." I have a very strong hunch, JMO, that BF/F broke off the engagement. I wish someone could verify this. BC if he did, than that could explain why mom went looking for her and was afraid for her -- for her being in that state of mind. I think this must be known to someone ...

Interesting question, but if BF/F told Mom that he broke off the engagement, why would Mom assume she was still in possession of the ring (per police report)? I would think that she'd assume the opposite, unless in those days, the girl expected to keep the ring if the man broke the engagement?

 

[Jmoose]

BBM1: Going a little further with my above speculation of a breakup, maybe what he was feeling was guilt, that he was responsible for her state of mind, and that he was helpless to "fix" it bc he wanted to end the relationship. Out on a limb, but just thinking of ways it might work ...

BB2: Looking at the timeline, if MMQC's additions are verfified, it may well have been dark -- esp. if he expected her to be at the bus stop a bit before 10 PM. If the fight happened earlier (i.e., into the movie time), there is an unspecified window to account for -- which of course plenty of couples could fill with fighting What I am left with is, if he thought MMQC could "rescue" her from the bus stop at 10, then he must have left her very recently.

I have contemplated this, too. It might make sense for him to ask her friend to get her, while he went to her parents' house.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Interesting question, but if BF/F told Mom that he broke off the engagement, why would Mom assume she was still in possession of the ring (per police report)? I would think that she'd assume the opposite, unless in those days, the girl expected to keep the ring if the man broke the engagement?

Yeah ... or maybe she didn't know, maybe the ring didn't come up, and the mom just assumed SL still had it. Unsure. It's a good question.

IIRC, the etiquette was, if the guy broke the engagement, it was assumed the girl could keep the ring; if she broke it, the polite thing was to return the ring.

 

[Jmoose]

ASWDeerHunter-would you have any possible idea if it was customary for Sylvia to return home from a night out by 10-10:30? Even at that age, my parents would have preferred that I would be home by 11:00. I wonder if this would account for BF/F's rush to speak to Sylvia's parents that night? Why wouldn't he call Sylvia's friend instead of going to her house, thus stopping his search for her? I can see why he wouldn't call her parents, though.

 

[Jmoose]

Yeah ... or maybe she didn't know, maybe the ring didn't come up, and the mom just assumed SL still had it. Unsure. It's a good question.

IIRC, the etiquette was, if the guy broke the engagement, it was assumed the girl could keep the ring; if she broke it, the polite thing was to return the ring.

Yes-nowadays, that wouldn't be the case, but then, you'd have to be quite a jerk to break the engagement, and expect the ring back.

 

[Odyssey]

Okay, but the BF/F says she stormed out of the car, threw the glasses on the dash ... maybe he showed up at her house b/c he thought enough time had passed for her to cool down?

And "cool down" could also apply to other forms of emotional upset that a guy might call "angry." I have a very strong hunch, JMO, that BF/F broke off the engagement. I wish someone could verify this. BC if he did, than that could explain why mom went looking for her and was afraid for her -- for her being in that state of mind. I think this must be known to someone ...

Are you feeling that he broke off the engagement spur of the moment due to an argument, or do you think he had already planned to do so before or after the movie?

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Are you feeling that he broke off the engagement spur of the moment due to an argument, or do you think he had already planned to do so before or after the movie?

I am thinking it was planned, Odyssey, but it's an intuition on my part, not based on the facts. I think her reaction would have been to be crazy mad if he sat through a movie with her, all the while planning to end it. Or maybe the movie didn't happen and he spent the whole time trying to calm her down bc they had the big talk and he let her down. I really don't know. I may be working into it backwards, bc my sense of SL is that she felt left completely alone that night, dumped in every sense of the word. Do you have any thoughts on this?

 

[GoingByMyGut]

ASWDeerHunter, when you're back on, can you verify -- if you know -- whether Eva went to Wagner to search for SL after the disappearance, and if she did, where it fits in the timeline?

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Woman going down ... been fighting the good fight all day, friends, and there isn't a brain cell left in my head. Have a lovely Saturday. Will be checking in throughout the weekend when I can