NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #2

[rosemadderlake]

I realize that its possible that Sylvia was a victim of a serial killer.
When I think about that possibility, it brings me back to the BF/F's attitude.
He was rude and seemed very uncaring, wanted to separate himself.
His whole attitude just seems suspect.

nobody has mentioned hearing or seeing despair

Perhaps he was not well liked as the fiance to begin with? I think hostility can be a mask for despair and guilt. It is difficult to know without insight to the other side of the story.

What if they broke up? Maybe he did not tell her family that particular piece but was concerned enough to tell her family in person that she ran off, instead of call on the phone. And what did the BF/F say to her family? What was the argument about? I mean would he show up and not be specific? Whatever it was it propelled EL to go looking for her that night.

 

[Jmoose]

Perhaps he was not well liked as the fiance to begin with? I think hostility can be a mask for despair and guilt. It is difficult to know without insight to the other side of the story.

What if they broke up? Maybe he did not tell her family that particular piece but was concerned enough to tell her family in person that she ran off, instead of call on the phone. And what did the BF/F say to her family? What was the argument about? I mean would he show up and not be specific? Whatever it was it propelled EL to go looking for her that night.

I think you have a good point re: the family not liking him possibly, and that might have influenced the attitude he displayed. What I am stuck on is MMQC's reaction to him-she didn't seem to like him either, and yet he sought her out to go and search for Sylvia. Afterwards, he had no use for her (MMQC) and in fact, was openly hostile to her-swearing at her months after the disappearance when she contacted him. This bothers me as much as the glasses.

 

[Dushi]

Ok, I will accept that perhaps he wasn't well liked by the family, but his attitude says to me HE didn't like the family and really seemed to care very little about his fiance 's disappearance

Was there any remorse?
I would really like to know

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Maybe the BF/F gave them to LE. Maybe they were her sunglasses? -Or, a second pair (I have 3 pairs).

And wouldn't this be a huge piece for both the family and LE if she couldn't see without them?

If she couldn't see without her eyeglasses, and ran off into the night, why was there "no publicity" on the missing persons report?

I think I remember MMQC saying the prescription was not strong. I found this post and this post in thread one, for example. I thought there was another where she seemed more sure but I couldn't find it. I would think if she couldn't see without them, she might be more certain?

 

[rosemadderlake]

Ok, I will accept that perhaps he wasn't well liked by the family, but his attitude says to me HE didn't like the family and really seemed to care very little about his fiance 's disappearance

Was there any remorse?
I would really like to know

I wonder if there was any communication between the mothers, fathers, (parents)? Does anyone know? They all met at the engagement party, at least once. Any parent would be devastated if their child disappeared.

This is where I feel there is the "other life" piece that is missing: Wagner, Sorority, band, music connections, his friends, - they met and became engaged during this time we know little about.

 

[rosemadderlake]

I think I remember MMQC saying the prescription was not strong. I found this post and this post in thread one, for example. I thought there was another where she seemed more sure but I couldn't find it. I would think if she couldn't see without them, she might be more certain?

Excellent. BBM: Yes, I would think so. -This makes more sense with the "No Publicity" on the police report if they were a non essential item. And if the family doesn't have them then maybe LE does. Maybe they are sitting in the archives, after all. If the case is open, LE wouldn't dispose of evidence, would they?

 

[Jmoose]

Ok, I will accept that perhaps he wasn't well liked by the family, but his attitude says to me HE didn't like the family and really seemed to care very little about his fiance 's disappearance

Was there any remorse?
I would really like to know

I see your point-it does make a difference if he didn't like Sylvia's family and friends. I don't know our VIs, but if there was some remorse, one or the other of them probably would have seen it, and they did not-it appears he had no trouble putting Sylvia's disappearance behind him.

 

[rosemadderlake]

If the BF/F knew he was being investigated by LE and maybe even the PI, I would bet he went to a lawyer.

 

[Jmoose]

Excellent. BBM: Yes, I would think so. -This makes more sense with the "No Publicity" on the police report if they were a non essential item. And if the family doesn't have them then maybe LE does. Maybe they are sitting in the archives, after all. If the case is open, LE wouldn't dispose of evidence, would they?

Hmm-well, they don't officially dispose of evidence in an open case, but sometimes evidence disappears-gets misplaced, etc. I would think, based on what we know so far, that the glasses are the only evidence they'd have (I am assuming that LE has them-it would make sense that they do)

 

[Jmoose]

I think I remember MMQC saying the prescription was not strong. I found this post and this post in thread one, for example. I thought there was another where she seemed more sure but I couldn't find it. I would think if she couldn't see without them, she might be more certain?

Now that you mention it, I think I recall some discussion about this

 

[Jmoose]

If the BF/F knew he was being investigated by LE and maybe even the PI, I would bet he went to a lawyer.

I don't think there is any doubt that he went to a lawyer. And even without consulting a lawyer, a smart guy (I believe he is) knows that the police cannot compel you to speak to them. Who knows how hard the police leaned on him in the 70's, too? By 2010, there wouldn't be any other evidence besides the glasses to investigate by the cold case squad-car, clothing, etc would be long gone. This also means that BF/F couldn't be ruled out, either-so that the focus could go elsewhere.

I think Odyssey was going to work on finding the PI-a monumental task, I'm sure. I wonder what the PI would have to add?

 

[rosemadderlake]

I see your point-it does make a difference if he didn't like Sylvia's family and friends. I don't know our VIs, but if there was some remorse, one or the other of them probably would have seen it, and they did not-it appears he had no trouble putting Sylvia's disappearance behind him.

-Not defending the BF/F but trying to look at all sides - If either of them were seeing someone else and/or they broke up, the remorse may not be overt. Or, expressed to those who ultimately blame him.

If my childhood BFF or sister disappeared never to return, I would never forgive the one who just let her storm off (if that is indeed what happened). If I didn't like him to begin with, there is not much ground on which to express much of anything.

So, I do wonder about the actions following the disappearance as they do not suggest that this was a happily engaged couple, or they were at one time, but something happened...

 

[Jmoose]

-Not defending the BF/F but trying to look at all sides - If either of them were seeing someone else and/or they broke up, the remorse may not be overt. Or, expressed to those who ultimately blame him.

If my childhood BFF or sister disappeared never to return, I would never forgive the one who just let her storm off (if that is indeed what happened). If I didn't like him to begin with, there is not much ground on which to express much of anything.

So, I do wonder about the actions following the disappearance as they do not suggest that this was a happily engaged couple, or they were at one time, but something happened...

I, too, wonder how this relationship went the way it did. They must have loved each other at one time, enjoying many happy moments together-something must have happened to allow him to at least appear to be uncaring and hostile when she disappeared. I would like to know what that story was. Maybe everyone's attitude contributed some to the lack of communication after Sylvia disappeared.

I'd like to know if LE has the glasses, if the Lwowski family and that of the BF/F were ever in touch after she disappeared, if the police ever spoke to BF/F in a meaningful way, and searched his car, and would like to know if anyone from Sylvia's college has any information that we are currently unaware of. I would also like to know what the PI knows-is that too much to ask (lol)? I generally believe that most things happen in the least complicated way ( think occam's razor), and believe that is what happened here-because the only evidence appears to be a pair of broken glasses.

 

[gajonka]

Now that you mention it, I think I recall some discussion about this

Here's a look at the Time Horizon-oriented event Map put together by Going By My Gut and The RoseMadderLake (smile).

<|||>
Bumping up GBMG's timeline ( <----note from RML):

September 6, 1975

Sat. afternoon-4-ish: MMQC & SL spend afternoon together. MMQC: “Mall shopping running errands etc. Dropped her off at home so she could get ready for date with BF/F. That was the last time I saw her.”

Sat. 5 or 6 PM: BF/F picks SL up at home for their date. ASWDeerHunter: “Charles came over to the residents around 5pm to see a movie Sylvia at a cinema about 20 min away.” Alternate time of “6 PM” added as per PR.

5/6-10 PM: Window of uncertainty. Date details unverified. Mall? Movie? Fight? Bus stop?

Sat. 10 PM: BF/F shows up at MMQC’s house, tells her about fight, asks her to pick SL up from the bus stop. MMQC: “I did not know exact time of DATE. What I do know is that BF/F did say after movie they had fight she got out of the car and would take the bus home.” and “He did say they had a fight and she stormed out of the car by the mall. He seemed angry.”

10-11 PM: MMQC & her father drive around the mall area, trying to find SL, but they do not find her. MMQC: “We guessed that the bus came in the time between.”

10:30 PM: BF/F drives to SL’s residence and explains what happened. ASWDeerHunter: “Charles returned to the house approx. 10:30 stating that during an argument Sylvia had thrown her glasses against the dash board of the car and ran off.” (MMQC: “I truly don't remember BF/F EVER going to parents home that night.” and re EL: “She never mentioned to me that BF/F ever came by.”)

10:45 PM-Midnight (?): EL searches for SL by car. ASWDeerHunter: “Eva then got in the car and drove around the Staten Island Mall, but didn’t see her.”

11 PM (?): MMQC talks with her parents and decides not to alarm SL’s family with her concerns about SL -- “...did not want to worry SL's parents or raise a red flag if not warrented.” She calls under the guise of needing to talk to SL for personal reasons. “I called SL home stating I needed to talk to my friend. Saying that I had an issue that I had to talk to my best friend about. No matter what time.”

Around Midnight (?): EL calls LE. ASWDeerHunter: “Eva Lwowski called the 122pct and tried to report a missing person but could not because see wasn't missing for 24 hrs. yet.” and “... it was after Eva returned from the Mall that she called the 122pct.”

2 AM-7 AM (?): EL calls MMQC. MMQC: “Then after several hours passed SL's mother called my home asking WHAT HAPPENED? SL did not return home. It was then I told her about BF/F coming to my home telling me about the fight etc.” and “She called me asking what was up as SL never came home and it was very early the next morning.”

Sun. AM: MMQC & EL search Wagner, local area. “I took her to the Wagner campus then in the morning and cruised around at our local haunts to see if she was there or if anyone had seen her.”

Sun. 6 PM: EL reports her missing to LE (time as per PR). ASWDeerhunter: “The following day, Eva went to 122 pct to make a formal missing persons report and the police basically said she was over 21 and didn’t really spend to much time or resources in locating her.” MMQC: “LE informed her that SL was an adult and was not considered missing until missing for more than 48 hours as I recall. Then they were to bring current photo and a list of what she was wearing etc. Then LE would contact them at their home to follow up and investigate.”

Mon-Tues. (?): MMQC and EL stay in touch. “For a day or two. I was in contact with SL's mother about this.”

Wed. (?): MMQC & father request help from ADA. “My parents lived next door to an ADA. I then asked my dad to come with me to ask ADA to do something. It was then someone finally contacted parents from LE.”

UNSPECIFIED: MMQC calls BF/F about SL. “I called BF/F to see if SL contacted him. He was VERY RUDE to me on phone stating he had been made a sucker of he had given her a very expensive ring and she takes off, and don't call again. His mother was having a breakdown about it and not to call again.”

“Days and weeks” after SL disappears: ASWDeerHunter: “Charles wouldn't answer and more questions concerning Sylvia.”

1-2 Weeks after disappearance: ASWDeerHunter: “A week or two later the family hired a privet investigator and am not sure of the outcome of that investigation except a different version of her running off came out.”

Just before Xmas '75: MMQC calls BF/F. MMQC: “I last spoke to BF/F just before Xmas '75. Told him Fifi died (SL's pet poodle) and he said (insert my real name) who. I reminded BF/F who I was and he cursed me and said don't ever call here again ...”

Sometime in 1979-84: MMQC hears about ring when she meets a fellow SI’er: Convo turns to SL, fellow SI’er tells MMQC that knows BF/F through his brother/band and claims BF/F is in possession of the engagement ring he gave Sl.

2010: Cold Case contacts MMQC. “Other than the cold case Det. Savage calling me in 2010 that I never spoke to LE.”

 

[alliemay]

Maybe Deerhunter could tell us who the family eye doctor was, and dentist?

 

[rosemadderlake]

I, too, wonder how this relationship went the way it did. They must have loved each other at one time, enjoying many happy moments together-something must have happened to allow him to at least appear to be uncaring and hostile when she disappeared. I would like to know what that story was. Maybe everyone's attitude contributed some to the lack of communication after Sylvia disappeared.

I'd like to know if LE has the glasses, if the Lwowski family and that of the BF/F were ever in touch after she disappeared, if the police ever spoke to BF/F in a meaningful way, and searched his car, and would like to know if anyone from Sylvia's college has any information that we are currently unaware of. I would also like to know what the PI knows-is that too much to ask (lol)? I generally believe that most things happen in the least complicated way ( think occam's razor), and believe that is what happened here-because the only evidence appears to be a pair of broken glasses.

Great post - bbm: and there's the list. It would be great if we could get some answers!

I am not even sure the glasses are broken because the PR says left in car and BF/F stated thrown against dash per Lwowski family.

What is it that is suppressing her story? The silence is the loudest piece.

 

[Jmoose]

bbm: Great post - and there's the list. It would be great if we could get some answers!

I am not even sure the glasses are broken because the PR says left in car and BF/F stated thrown against dash per Lwowski family.

What is it that is suppressing her story? The silence is the loudest piece.

It said someplace in one of the threads that the glasses were broken-I may have assumed that it was official-Deerhunter, do you know?

 

[Jmoose]

The Charley Project says that the glasses were found, broken, in BF/F's car. I don't think we figured out where they got that information, so it's not necessarily official yet

 

[Odyssey]

MMQQ and Odyssey (and any other SI'ers on the thread):

I notice in the article that Rose cites above that this woman, Anna Marie Scivetti, disappeared shortly after crossing the Outbridge onto the island from Jersey. However, a 2012 article on her I read a while back, which provides more detail on her case, says she and her BF were seen visiting a "South Shore bar" until the wee hours after that sighting. It's a little confusing.

So question 1: What is meant by the "South Shore"? Where is that relative to where 440 comes onto the island?

Some observations: When looking very up-close-and-personal at a Google Map of SI in satellite view, I see a swath of forested land north and south of the Outerbridge Crossing, where it first touches SI after leaving NJ. The piece north of 440 is much bigger and appears to be undeveloped except for a gun club and, a little farther down, what looks like a holding lot for Dept. of Transportation or bridge commission vehicles. It has a significant shoreline where it meets the waterway betw SI & NJ (Kill Van Kull?), and it seems to be very sandy throughout.

South of the bridge the woods are bordered more closely by developed areas, plus I think it quickly runs into the park MMQC mentioned some time ago -- Conference House Park.

Question 2: Are either of you familiar with these areas? I lived in an apartment complex near the Morris E. Goodkind bridge in New Brunswick, NJ, during my undergrad years (this bridge crosses the Raritan River), and they can be pretty desolate places. I ran my dogs there and loved it for the isolation, but also saw some shady characters.

Question 3: I am also remembering from a few pages back that this northerly section of woods is close to Biegenwald's mother's neighborhood. Have either of you ever heard of this section of terra firma being searched in connection with his investigation?

It seems like the property would be relatively untouched since the bridge was built (the land around it may be owned by the state for utility right-of-ways and in case they ever want to add lanes to 440). To my eye, that means if it was used to dispose of a body, there might actually be a chance of recovery today.

Grasping at straws? Perhaps. I recall ASWDH saying earlier about a golf course he would search if he were able. If there's a list anywhere, I'd like to add these patches to it.

I'm sorry for the delay, haven't had much time to be online lately. I'm not sure if anyone else answered this...

I don't remember much about the Outerbridge Crossing, we never really took that bridge, we'd take the Goethals if we needed to go to Jersey.

Staten Island is basically divided into 3 sections - North Shore, Mid-Island, and South-Shore. I don't know exactly where the borders are, but we (and the mall, and Port Richmond HS) were North Shore and Tottenville/Sylvia's home are South Shore.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

-Not defending the BF/F but trying to look at all sides - If either of them were seeing someone else and/or they broke up, the remorse may not be overt. Or, expressed to those who ultimately blame him.

If my childhood BFF or sister disappeared never to return, I would never forgive the one who just let her storm off (if that is indeed what happened). If I didn't like him to begin with, there is not much ground on which to express much of anything.

So, I do wonder about the actions following the disappearance as they do not suggest that this was a happily engaged couple, or they were at one time, but something happened...

BBM: G's timing in reposting the timeline couldn't be better as it has a quote in it that has bugged me since MMQC first shared it. Toward the end of the timeline, which covers the days/weeks/months after SL disappeared, MMQC says:

&#8220;I called BF/F to see if SL contacted him. He was VERY RUDE to me on phone stating he had been made a sucker of he had given her a very expensive ring and she takes off, and don't call again. His mother was having a breakdown about it and not to call again.&#8221;

Those words, BBM, really have an imapct on me. When are you "suckered"? When someone lies to you, or when you find out that someone has been cheating on you, or when someone turns out to be someone other than you thought they were ... when you are played.

This makes me think the BF/F learned something the night SL disappeared. Maybe from SL herself. Maybe from someone just before or just after SL vanished. Who knows? But if you think you've been played, and that wound is fresh, it may be hard to show remorse in that moment.

Depending on how or why his view of her had changed, he might not believe at first that she met foul play. He might just be pissed.

Of course, "suckered" is also a reason to commit foul play, but IMO, if you did, wouldn't you be thinking how NOT to make yourself look guilty? It seems to me that acting like a loose cannon is NOT a "prepared" response, not a ruse or coverup.

Are the "ring" and the "taking off" part of being suckered? He's acting, IMO, like a victim. Is that the ruse? Could be, I suppose. But he doesn't play it to the hilt, doesn't give details, like you might if you were making up a "story."

What if SL did run out of his car -- and in that running around he did afterward -- another friend told him something he didn't know? Something that showed him how he'd been made a "sucker?" Maybe he didn't give the family more details because he couldn't tell SL's mother what he learned (maybe it involved the abortion, or SL sleeping with another guy: is that "mom" material?).

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, who knows what happened? But things don't fully add up for me with the BF/F theory any more than they do for any other scenario we've discussed.