NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #3

[GoingByMyGut]

Bumping up for MMQC's attention:

Originally Posted by MMQC
I think we all have the potential to flip out every now and again. You know what I mean. There is always someone out there that can flip your switch. I've been there myself. Right time, right situation and I'm a different person with rage and anger. It takes a lot to bring me to that point though, but I have been there at least 5 times in my 60 year life time that I can remember.

Looking back to when we were kids I never really saw SL flip her switch till the party.

All BBM: Thanks, MMQC. We've been trying to make sense of this for a while now. Was the shopping trip before the movie date the only time you and SL got together between the party and the time she disappeared? You've said that SL and JL were still not talking to one another. Did SL talk about what happened? Did she say what pushed her over the edge to such uncharacteristic behavior? Was the hand-walking a last straw of some kind? What do you think made this the "right time, right situation" for SL?

 

[rosemadderlake]

:juggle::juggle:

Did Sylvia normally carry a purse, and did she accessorize her clothing with other things like maybe scarfs? Besides her diamond did she cherish and wear any other rings, class ring maybe or other? Was her watch expensive?

Yes, always carried a purse. Scarfs? Really can't say. OH, wait, only when we were covering something on our necks.....! We both did accessorize our costume jewlery with our ourfits. We used to borrow from each other from time to time. Expenisve watch? Don't think so.

--I just learned how to multi-quote!

bbm: What size handbag did Sylvia carry? The kind where you can carry around many belongings; books, sheet music, beachwear, etc. (My handbags were always large when I was young).

Also, MMQC, (asking GBMG's question again) --And, I know this is eons ago but do you remember anything that Sylvia purchased that afternoon when you two went shopping? Sunglasses? New shoes? Jewelry? Was she a silver or gold person? A couple of outfits? -Something new to wear that night?

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Bumping up for MMQC's attention: (Talk of suicide and possible body locations brought this back into my mind. Odyssey provided a response re the South Shore, but I am curious to also hear MMQC's thoughts.)

Originally Posted by rosemadderlake
Staten Island woman's mystery disappearance
By Ken Paulsen/Staten Island Advance
http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf...mystery_d.html

MMQQ and Odyssey (and any other SI'ers on the thread):

I notice in the article that Rose cites above that this woman, Anna Marie Scivetti, disappeared shortly after crossing the Outbridge onto the island from Jersey. However, a 2012 article on her I read a while back, which provides more detail on her case, says she and her BF were seen visiting a "South Shore bar" until the wee hours after that sighting. It's a little confusing.

So question 1: What is meant by the "South Shore"? Where is that relative to where 440 comes onto the island?

Some observations: When looking very up-close-and-personal at a Google Map of SI in satellite view, I see a swath of forested land north and south of the Outerbridge Crossing, where it first touches SI after leaving NJ. The piece north of 440 is much bigger and appears to be undeveloped except for a gun club and, a little farther down, what looks like a holding lot for Dept. of Transportation or bridge commission vehicles. It has a significant shoreline where it meets the waterway betw SI & NJ (Kill Van Kull?), and it seems to be very sandy throughout.

South of the bridge the woods are bordered more closely by developed areas, plus I think it quickly runs into the park MMQC mentioned some time ago -- Conference House Park.

Question 2: Are either of you familiar with these areas? I lived in an apartment complex near the Morris E. Goodkind bridge in New Brunswick, NJ, during my undergrad years (this bridge crosses the Raritan River), and they can be pretty desolate places. I ran my dogs there and loved it for the isolation, but also saw some shady characters.

Question 3: I am also remembering from a few pages back that this northerly section of woods is close to Biegenwald's mother's neighborhood. Have either of you ever heard of this section of terra firma being searched in connection with his investigation?

It seems like the property would be relatively untouched since the bridge was built (the land around it may be owned by the state for utility right-of-ways and in case they ever want to add lanes to 440). To my eye, that means if it was used to dispose of a body, there might actually be a chance of recovery today.

Grasping at straws? Perhaps. I recall ASWDH saying earlier about a golf course he would search if he were able. If there's a list anywhere, I'd like to add these patches to it.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

ASWDeerHunter, were you at the August pool party? Did you see the exchange between SL and JL that culminated in SL kicking him? And if not, did you hear about it afterward? Did you sense the "chill" in the air between SL and JL in the days that followed? Are you aware of any prior history of antagonism between SL and JL (in other words, was this incident "more of the same" or "out of character" for the two of them)?

 

[rosemadderlake]

MMQC: This must be your day for an avalanche of posts! A couple of random questions - Was Sylvia a good swimmer? -Diver?

And, I am wondering about her style, particularly that summer, was she a blue jeans and bare foot kind of gal? Or, stylish, and made up? Or, change from one to the other?

 

[Jmoose]

BBM1: I don't hear you being contrary, just poking a finger at a pile of sticks, and why not!

So, I hadn't really thought those details that far out, but I think I see what you're saying, and you got me thinking.

Runaway: Yes, she'd need the purse for that. That's why I thought finding the purse would be such a red flag.

Murder: If this is what happened, you would expect her purse to (a) turn up with a body, (b) turn up in a murderer's possession, (c) be disposed of.

But BBM2: Now that you mention it, I wouldn't expect someone planning suicide to even bring a purse, unless the person expected to need something en route to the suicide destination. At one point, I asked MMQC if Sylvia bought anything on her shopping trip (I don't think she answered this question but I will look and bump it up), because I also would not expect someone planning suicide to purchase anything for future use -- or to buy an outfit to die in. Right? I mean, I have heard about men putting on military uniforms and Sunday suits before eating their shotguns; it's almost like they are saying what they want to be buried in. But I don't think this level of planning (or vanity -- whichever it is) is common. Do you? I think the suicide victim is usually too distraught to think this way.

Re the purse being found by now ... it's a big world, there's a lot of people in it, and those people make a lot of garbage! I think if we were too trawl a dump, we'd find purses and wallets in it. Sometimes they just rot. JMO.[/QUOTE]

BBM1-I agree with this-if Sylvia committed suicide that night, I don't think she necessarily planned it that way, even if she had considered it recently. She was 22 years old, and while an adult (a smart one, too), her brain wasn't fully "cooked" yet. This means there is still lots of room for crazy, impulsive behavior-statistically, young people who commit suicide do so after a minimal amount of "ideation". In other words, they get the thought, and commit the act pretty much right away. So it's possible that she bolted from the car with her purse, and committed suicide, and nothing's been found.

BBM2-i also agree with this-it's a big world, and she and her purse have not yet been found. If she had been murdered by someone smart, she would have to disappear, along with her purse, esecially if she was killed by somebody who knew her. If BF/F did it, he'd have to make sure that the purse wasn't found in his car. Maybe he didn't think the glasses would be as big a deal as the purse, especially if they were only reading glasses-thinking that she might leave the glasses, but never the purse. On the other hand, this could mean he didn't do it because who would get rid of the purse, but not the glasses? In any event, if she and her purse ended up at the Freshkills landfill, there isn't any possible way to find her now, even if all of the World Trade Center debris hadn't ended up there. That being said, I would tend to expect that if she was a victim of accidental hit and run, she and her purse would have been found. She might not have been if she was a victim of one of the local serial killers, and almost certainly not if she was killed by someone who knew her, and was determined not to get caught.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

BBM1: I don't hear you being contrary, just poking a finger at a pile of sticks, and why not!

So, I hadn't really thought those details that far out, but I think I see what you're saying, and you got me thinking.

Runaway: Yes, she'd need the purse for that. That's why I thought finding the purse would be such a red flag.

Murder: If this is what happened, you would expect her purse to (a) turn up with a body, (b) turn up in a murderer's possession, (c) be disposed of.

But BBM2: Now that you mention it, I wouldn't expect someone planning suicide to even bring a purse, unless the person expected to need something en route to the suicide destination. At one point, I asked MMQC if Sylvia bought anything on her shopping trip (I don't think she answered this question but I will look and bump it up), because I also would not expect someone planning suicide to purchase anything for future use -- or to buy an outfit to die in. Right? I mean, I have heard about men putting on military uniforms and Sunday suits before eating their shotguns; it's almost like they are saying what they want to be buried in. But I don't think this level of planning (or vanity -- whichever it is) is common. Do you? I think the suicide victim is usually too distraught to think this way.

Re the purse being found by now ... it's a big world, there's a lot of people in it, and those people make a lot of garbage! I think if we were too trawl a dump, we'd find purses and wallets in it. Sometimes they just rot. JMO.

BBM1-I agree with this-if Sylvia committed suicide that night, I don't think she necessarily planned it that way, even if she had considered it recently. She was 22 years old, and while an adult (a smart one, too), her brain wasn't fully "cooked" yet. This means there is still lots of room for crazy, impulsive behavior-statistically, young people who commit suicide do so after a minimal amount of "ideation". In other words, they get the thought, and commit the act pretty much right away. So it's possible that she bolted from the car with her purse, and committed suicide, and nothing's been found.

BBM2-i also agree with this-it's a big world, and she and her purse have not yet been found. If she had been murdered by someone smart, she would have to disappear, along with her purse, esecially if she was killed by somebody who knew her. If BF/F did it, he'd have to make sure that the purse wasn't found in his car. Maybe he didn't think the glasses would be as big a deal as the purse, especially if they were only reading glasses-thinking that she might leave the glasses, but never the purse. On the other hand, this could mean he didn't do it because who would get rid of the purse, but not the glasses? In any event, if she and her purse ended up at the Freshkills landfill, there isn't any possible way to find her now, even if all of the World Trade Center debris hadn't ended up there. That being said, I would tend to expect that if she was a victim of accidental hit and run, she and her purse would have been found. She might not have been if she was a victim of one of the local serial killers, and almost certainly not if she was killed by someone who knew her, and was determined not to get caught.

I agree on all points. Re the BBM: My thoughts exactly. I even lean this way in terms of the glasses alone. IOW, if SL were murdered by the BF/F, and he took steps to get rid of the body and purse, why not also chuck the glasses? However, the points you make about brain development, combined with over-the-chimney stress, also apply on his side of the fence: The thinking accounts for what a smart person would do under normal circumstances, but doesn't account for stupid -- and under these kinds of conditions, smart people can do stupid things.

For the record, all speculation, no facts fully support the thinking in any particular direction, MOO.

 

[alliemay]

That night she had on a green shirt and a white sweater. One of the picture's of her has a green shirt, looks like a fancy one. Wonder if that picture was taken at her engagement party? Not an informative post, just thinking out loud.

 

[Jmoose]

[/B]


I agree on all points. Re the BBM: My thoughts exactly. I even lean this way in terms of the glasses alone. IOW, if SL were murdered by the BF/F, and he took steps to get rid of the body and purse, why not also chuck the glasses? However, the points you make about brain development, combined with over-the-chimney stress, also apply on his side of the fence: The thinking accounts for what a smart person would do under normal circumstances, but doesn't account for stupid -- and under these kinds of conditions, smart people can do stupid things.

For the record, all speculation, no facts fully support the thinking in any particular direction, MOO.

You make a good point; where I am at is that he couldn't very well pretend he hadn't seen her, since he left with her. She absolutely wouldn't have left her purse in the car, unless she couldn't grab it as she exited, but we've established, I think, that the glasses weren't an essential item, since she could see without them.

As you said, GBMG, he and she may have both had the same need to mature, and possibly he wouldn't have had the wherewithall at that age to stage "the perfect crime"-I wish there was more information to be obtained:banghead:

 

[rosemadderlake]

Just jumping off your post MMQC:

BBM

The sorority sisters whom SL may have been closest to (other seniors who graduated with her and who knew her longer than her younger sisters) would have already permanently left campus after graduation in May/June 1975. The sorority sisters would have had the contact information for those members who graduated with SL (some who may have been at the pool party, others who may have been close to her, but were unable to attend).

Only those who had not graduated would be on campus dorm in September 1975. SL may have had close friendship/s with a few juniors...in September 1975, now seniors and living at the dorm.

Sorority floor in the dorm? Dorm rooms where residential sorority member-students lived.

IMO, this would be where couples would go to be alone since they had the opportunity for comfort and privacy, rather than outdoors or in vehicles esp at this age. My guess is that the sorority sisters at WC knew BF/F and if there were any other males interested in SL, may have known them as well.

Bbm: – Question for both Vi’s - Was the Sorority helpful to EL in her search (a mother looking for her daughter) after Sylvia disappeared?

 

[alliemay]

Maybe there is a difference between a missing person report and an incident report? For instance, Eva supplied the information for the missing person report, when SHE last saw Sylvia, she had glasses, a purse, an engagement ring, a watch. An incident happens after she leaves Eva's sight, and Charles becomes the last person to see her. Do police then ask Charles what Sylvia was wearing when she "stormed out of the car"? Eva files the report, the police are aware of these items so they should have asked him if these items were on her person when she got out of the car. Assuming here, that he gave the glasses to Eva the night of the fight and told her that Sylvia threw them against the dash, he would have also had to tell police the same thing. I would think there would be two reports, missing person taken from the Eva, and incident report taken from Charles.

 

[MMQC]

Bumping up for MMQC's attention:

I can't remember if I bought anything. That said, I really don't know.

 

[MMQC]

Bumping up for MMQC's attention:

MOO, I think she was trying to impress the WC crew. Then the unthinkable happens with her dad. Totally throwing off the entire evening and being laughed at, not only laughing at the father but a mocking laugh. I was embarrassed for her. It just flipped her switch!

 

[MMQC]

MMQC: This must be your day for an avalanche of posts! A couple of random questions - Was Sylvia a good swimmer? -Diver?

And, I am wondering about her style, particularly that summer, was she a blue jeans and bare foot kind of gal? Or, stylish, and made up? Or, change from one to the other?

She was a good swimmer. Diver? Can't say. I know she went on a trip and swam with the dolphins.

As far as her style, all of the above.

 

[MMQC]

Bbm: – Question for both Vi’s - Was the Sorority helpful to EL in her search (a mother looking for her daughter) after Sylvia disappeared?

The day I took EL there they were not very friendly at all. I guess because it was a parent on the floor. I did not know anyone there by name either. I don't know what ever was said on campus either. My contacts there consisted of two. Sylvia and another friend. Neither of them knew the other.

 

[gajonka]

I have seen the cone of silence in other cases that I have followed

....back!!!!

Loving THREAD THREE. There is MoRE - we'll get to four (mega-mega).


I finished my letter to John Douglas ( the fbi's profile pioneer) will share with you under separate cover. I trimmed excessive ego-boosting content since I am sure that's all he gets (smile).


Entry to Hypothetical-land

Individual had chose to document - using a pen - the employment of a certain strategy... strategy... which sets down how the case is /will-be /was handled. The state of play? (british moniker)
Aforementioned referenced here is well-decorated, and most likely has worked hundreds of cases, chances rest with many events "running together." Natural, without a file or a sharp memory about something specific - something exotic.... or less than what is commonly found to be "usual."
Questions asked - with kind graces... nothing wrong with it...

Leaving Hypothetical Land...


||||
Looking for the picture with the snow blower...

"Wait, maybe that's where I saved it" he thought.


luv ya,

The Gajonka
Sorry - I am a little rusty... ;-(

 

[Angel629]

GoingByMyGut: So sorry to hear about your cat! I know how that feels.

 

[rosemadderlake]

The day I took EL there they were not very friendly at all. I guess because it was a parent on the floor. I did not know anyone there by name either. I don't know what ever was said on campus either. My contacts there consisted of two. Sylvia and another friend. Neither of them knew the other.

Thanks MMQC - bbm: Did you recognize anyone on the Sorority floor that day who was at the pool party?

 

[rosemadderlake]

She was a good swimmer. Diver? Can't say. I know she went on a trip and swam with the dolphins.

As far as her style, all of the above.

MMQC: bbm: I am wondering about her style because I have seen women transform themselves for men, especially when they are young. Did she go to great lengths to become the reflection of who her BF/F wanted her to be? Or, did he like her just the way she was? Or, were there any subtle changes that you noticed?

I am also wondering what size purse she usually carried because if she carried around "her life" in her bag, then she may have had all her Sorority and other friends (biology grads) contact information, notes, journal, etc., with her when she vanished. This may have made it very difficult for EL to track down anyone specific, especially if her parents had just met some of these people for the first time at the pool party.

 

[rosemadderlake]

I can't remember if I bought anything. That said, I really don't know.

I guess my thought along the lines of that afternoon you two went shopping is perhaps there would be a just purchased item that only you, and perhaps EL would know about. Or maybe, something not mentioned on the PR like a new pair of earrings, necklace, hair ornament, new handbag, etc...