NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #4

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  • #781
  • #782
To the best of my recall, all we know about the party is:

  • It was a graduation party, in spite of being so late in the summer (Labor Day Weekend, IIRC, just days before SL vanished) and so long after graduation.
  • It was a pool party and was held in SL's backyard.
  • The guests were SL's friends from Wagner, plus MMQC.
  • The BF/F was not there, for reasons unknown to us.
  • At some point in the party, JL, Sr., did/said something (we don't know what) that angered SL and she kicked him.
  • SL was angry enough with him that she slept at MMQC's house that night and may still not have been speaking to him when she disappeared the next weekend.
  • MMQC suggested, but provided no details, that whatever her father did was embarrassing to her in part because the Wagner friends' judgments.

If anyone recalls more, please add.

Respectfully snipped and BBM

Didn't MMQC say that SL's father had a few too many drinks and started doing acrobatics during the party, which embarrassed Sylvia, causing her to kick him? I think I remember reading that.
 
  • #783
Respectfully snipped and BBM

Didn't MMQC say that SL's father had a few too many drinks and started doing acrobatics during the party, which embarrassed Sylvia, causing her to kick him? I think I remember reading that.

Yes-that is what MMQC said; I wish we knew more about the actual incident. For what it's worth, DeerHunter told me that as a family member, his recollection was that the incident at the pool party wasn't as big a deal as we think-but then he was a 16 year old boy who might not have been as attentive as he thinks at the time.
 
  • #784
Respectfully snipped and BBM

Didn't MMQC say that SL's father had a few too many drinks and started doing acrobatics during the party, which embarrassed Sylvia, causing her to kick him? I think I remember reading that.

BBMYes, you're right. He walked on his hands. That's what led to discussion about training the performers for the movie, which I think was Trapeze. I reread this via a couple of the links Rose posted (thread 3, post 4 and post 5, two posts of mine that attempted to collect everything we knew at that point about JL). At the time, I don't think we thought that alone was enough to warrant the kick, thus the speculation that there was more to it, but who knows. Bear in mind the man was 60 at the time!
 
  • #785
Thanks so much to all of you for helping me "get up to speed" on this case. Just a few more thoughts (not necessarily related to one another):

I haven't seen the comments regarding the possibility that JL had helped train actors for a Burt Lancaster movie (those posts seem to be gone?) but, "The Flame and the Arrow" (1950), "The Crimson Pirate" (1952) and "Trapeze" (1956) were all movies he did that had circus themes. Burt was from New York as well and he first joined the circus through The Union Settlement Hall and The Federal Theatre Project. The first two movies I listed actually caught the attention of the House UnAmerican Activities Committee who saw them as having "communist plots" intended to corrupt American minds. All this to say, perhaps if JL had been involved in these films; this was something that could frighten the family to lie low???

Regarding the "graduation party" in August…It's odd that SL's BF/F wasn't there. The assumption is that he couldn't make it. Maybe she hadn't told him about the party? Would that be something that would embarrass him and make him angry?

rosemadderlake - A very long time ago you made a reference to a possible relative of the BF/F's boyfriend who had served time in the NYPD. I have found the same connection and that uncle also attended Port Richmond High School.

All of this…moo.

ETA - A Leahy died in April, 1975. Before Sylvia's disappearance.

BBM1: Thanks for bringing up the movie titles, PP. I tried to search it but I couldn't find the post either. However, I remember that MMQC spelled Trapeze wrong ... that's why I think that's the right movie. I wish I could pinpoint the post but I just blew 45 minutes on it and officially giving up. :)

BBM2: I'm not sure, but you may as well add it to the heap of possibilities ... The problem is that JL, Sr., was in Germany at this time. The tenure of his service was 1942-62 and I think he was in Germany the whole (or nearly the whole) time. EL and SL didn't set foot in the states until 1962. IOW, they were all living at a remove from what was happening here (the anti-communist sentiment), and were caught up in more dire circumstances -- WWII and its aftermath. So I'm not even sure how JL, Sr., could have been involved in the movie. Acrobatics do have roots in Eastern Europe -- could any of the movie production/training have occurred there? I doubt people were doing that with WWII ravaging the continent. Who knows, JL's connection to the film could have been at some remove from the filming ... we are getting the info third-hand. Maybe he taught acrobatics to someone pre-war, when he lived in Jersey City (if I recall the home town correctly), who later was in the film, and that was his connection to it. Dunno :)
 
  • #786
  • #787
A few last things…These, I find odd:

Jewish or not Jewish. MMBQ seemed to think that the family was Catholic. Or am I mistaken? The whole religious question seems to be unclear. Why?

German speaking or not. Again, MMBQ says that she never heard Sylvia speak German but the brother says that she did speak German with her mother. Why was this concealed from her best friend? (Why would this even be unusual given that she was born in Germany?)

Last but not least…Why was Eva so convinced that MMQC knew where Sylvia was? Did she have a reason to believe that her daughter would want to leave/disappear? It doesn't make sense. The family was traditional and seemingly, quite strict. Why would a mother then be so willing to simply accept that the daughter left of her own accord under the potential cover of a good friend? (It sounds like the PI that was hired was asked to find her with the assumption that she was alive and had decided to leave.)

moo

ETA - IF the BF/F did go to SL's home to speak with her parents, I do believe that he told them something about the "argument"… Did he say that she told him she had had an abortion? Did he say that she told him the family was Jewish? Did he say that she told him she had a party while he was away? Whatever he told them, it was enough for them to think that they had to be discreet in her, and their own regard. It was perhaps enough for them to believe that he was legitimately telling them what had transpired and maybe, just maybe, it was enough for them to think that the repurcussions were such that she would want to leave.

BBM1: Unclear to us anyway ... maybe to them the word would be "private?" There is more on the Jewish/Catholic question earlier in thread 4, so I won't repeat that, but to take it a step further, it wasn't at all unusual, after the harrowing experiences of WWII, for some Jewish survivors to renounce their faith, to hide it, or even to convert to other religions. (Some WWII veterans, like my uncle, didn't talk about what they saw for decades either.) And it wasn't unusual for Jewish survivors to hide their backgrounds related to the war, whether out of fear of continued repercussions, or out of trauma, who can say. Madeleine Albright is the perfect example. She was raised Catholic. Then, as an adult, when she was in public office, she was blindsided by learning that her parents were Jewish: "Albright was raised Catholic, but converted to Episcopalianism at the time of her marriage in 1959. She did not learn until adulthood that her parents were originally Jewish and that many of her Jewish relatives in Czechoslovakia had perished in the Holocaust, including three of her grandparents." It was all over the news when she learned about it. Most people's stories were not so public, but they abounded.

BBM2: This could be related to traumatic Holocaust experiences as well, or perhaps to Post-WWII contempt for all things German ... or it could just be "immigrant syndrome." (Doesn't actually exist, I'm being silly.) To assimilate, many immigrant families had rules about how they would deal with language. They might forbid the speaking of the native tongue altogether, restrict use to private times among family only, or even go in the other direction, speaking only English outside the home and only the mother tongue at home so the kids could maintain their language. Sometimes the kids were the ones who imposed the rules on their parents. I think immigrant parents tended to go along with these rules because they wanted their kids to assimilate and exceed them. My mother, for instance, denounced just about all things associated with her mother's Italian heritage, including language. Conceivably, SL could have told her mother not to talk to her in German in front of her friends. Because of my own experiences, I don't find it odd that ASWDH heard these conversations and that MMQC did not, but JMO.

BBM3: We have speculated about these things as well, but I do think it makes some emotional sense: It was the only thing that held any hope for her. Many other reasons are possible. Re the PI, we don't actually know what instructions the family gave, but it's possible. To my ear, from the little we know, it does not sound like EL ever suspected the BF/F or murder.

BBM4: If this is true, no one has shared it with us. JL, Jr., was present for this visit.
 
  • #788
A few last things…These, I find odd:

Jewish or not Jewish. MMBQ seemed to think that the family was Catholic. Or am I mistaken? The whole religious question seems to be unclear. Why?

German speaking or not. Again, MMBQ says that she never heard Sylvia speak German but the brother says that she did speak German with her mother. Why was this concealed from her best friend? (Why would this even be unusual given that she was born in Germany?)

Last but not least…Why was Eva so convinced that MMQC knew where Sylvia was? Did she have a reason to believe that her daughter would want to leave/disappear? It doesn't make sense. The family was traditional and seemingly, quite strict. Why would a mother then be so willing to simply accept that the daughter left of her own accord under the potential cover of a good friend? (It sounds like the PI that was hired was asked to find her with the assumption that she was alive and had decided to leave.)

moo

ETA - IF the BF/F did go to SL's home to speak with her parents, I do believe that he told them something about the "argument"… Did he say that she told him she had had an abortion? Did he say that she told him the family was Jewish? Did he say that she told him she had a party while he was away? Whatever he told them, it was enough for them to think that they had to be discreet in her, and their own regard. It was perhaps enough for them to believe that he was legitimately telling them what had transpired and maybe, just maybe, it was enough for them to think that the repurcussions were such that she would want to leave.

bbm: We have been told by MMQC that Sylvia was "raised catholic". -But, not a church going family. IMO - it is obscure.

bbm: Without knowing EL's level of English language upon entry to U.S., could the emphasis have been to speak English? -Become American. Naturalize. Was native language reserved for intimate family discussion? I think the Germans in this country had a difficult time post WWII. The full account of that history was being documented and analyzed in the decades after. Also, Marxism, Communism, etc. was a hotbed of perception in the 1950-1970's especially. These ideologies were explored in American Colleges, but what did it mean for an immigrant?

bbm: A really good point, a really good Q. Were they told the wedding was called off?
 
  • #789
I see there are many more Tags added!

-Still not sure exactly how they work, maybe to direct people to Sylvia's thread through various search categories (tags)? If so, that is great...
 
  • #790
Yes-that is what MMQC said; I wish we knew more about the actual incident. For what it's worth, DeerHunter told me that as a family member, his recollection was that the incident at the pool party wasn't as big a deal as we think-but then he was a 16 year old boy who might not have been as attentive as he thinks at the time.

Bbm: Or, as her best girlfriend thought? ...'never saw SL flip her switch like that before'. And, we are told-Sylvia and her father were not speaking to one another afterwards. I guess my question here is did Sylvia break silence and make peace with her father before she disappeared?

I wonder why there is this discrepancy? Did Sylvia and her father routinely not speak to each other?
 
  • #791
Bbm: Or, as her best girlfriend thought? ...'never saw SL flip her switch like that before'. And, we are told-Sylvia and her father were not speaking to one another afterwards. I guess my question here is did Sylvia break silence and make peace with her father before she disappeared?


I wonder why there is this discrepancy? Did Sylvia and her father routinely not speak to each other?

DeerHunter didn't say why it wasn't, in his mind, significant-I didn't ask, I'm afraid. It was merely my assumption that he didn't want us getting bogged down with this as a reason for her disappearance, but he may also know something that we aren't aware of yet, which would verify that the incident at the pool party had nothing to do with it
 
  • #792
DeerHunter didn't say why it wasn't, in his mind, significant-I didn't ask, I'm afraid. It was merely my assumption that he didn't want us getting bogged down with this as a reason for her disappearance, but he may also know something that we aren't aware of yet, which would verify that the incident at the pool party had nothing to do with it

I really don't think that the pool party incident was significant enough to make her want to run away (MOO).

But the fact that she kicked her father over something that, according to ASW was "not a big deal", and the mention of BF/F hitting his mother, makes me think that a physical confrontation between SL and BF/F is very possible.
 
  • #793
I see there are many more Tags added!

-Still not sure exactly how they work, maybe to direct people to Sylvia's thread through various search categories (tags)? If so, that is great...

They are a mystery to me as well. If a searcher typed "alpha tau mu" in the search engine, that should take the searcher to specific references to "alpha tau mu," which seems more productive to me. But when you click a tag, such as "alpha tau mu," it takes you to a general entry -- SL thread 4 -- with no info on where it's discussed (and in fact it's probably discussed in all 4 threads). I'm just not sure what to do with that information.
 
  • #794
I am not of the opinion that what happened at the pool party is insignificant-especially when taken in combination with the absence of the fiance. It doesn't necessarily indicate to me that Sylvia took off on her own, but rather that the stress of those two things could have instigated a gigantic fight between Sylvia and her fiance, which may have resulted in something very bad, and possibly out of character happening that night. At the very least, it could have stressed Sylvia out enough to jump out of a car at a light (or at a stop sign, or in traffic), where she then put herself in danger from another source. I can't believe that it had no relationship to what happened that night; but I don't believe she ran away and left Staten Island.
 
  • #795
Was rereading old thread, and stumbled upon a post that states the time between the pool party and SL's disappearance was only 3 days.

Have not reread further along to confirm whether that was later corrected, disputed or is accurate.

Anyone know from notes the amount of days between the 2 events?
 
  • #796
Was rereading old thread, and stumbled upon a post that states the time between the pool party and SL's disappearance was only 3 days.

Have not reread further along to confirm whether that was later corrected, disputed or is accurate.

Anyone know from notes the amount of days between the 2 events?

Could we assume that the graduation/pool party was on a weekend? I realize that it wouldn't necessarily be so
 
  • #797
Not sure why I thought this, but I had assumed it was a week after the party that she went missing. I have no post to back that up though.
 
  • #798
Not sure why I thought this, but I had assumed it was a week after the party that she went missing. I have no post to back that up though.
I'm not sure why but this is the same impression I had. From memory. No link. I believe that MMBQ stated this.

moo
 
  • #799
My guess is EL and children were fingerprinted post WWII immigration. Father American, Mother German citizen. Also, I am not sure but EL would have had to fulfill requirements to naturalize as an American citizen (three years if married to an American)?
http://portal.cuny.edu/cms/id/cuny/documents/informationpage/citizen_guide.pdf

Wow. Thanks for posting the link. I had no idea that people applying for naturalization are fingerprinted! Was this the case in 1962 as well??? Nothing seems impossible "post" 911 but really, were they doing this in 1962 when children travelled on their Mother's passports and there were limited checks of all sorts?

Fingerprinting children in the 60's…Really?
 
  • #800
IIRC: MMQC said pool party was held end of August.
 
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