Occam's Razor

[Nehemiah]

Fleet White would have everything to lose wouldn't he, if he did not claim to have dialed 911 mistakenly. If this is a lie, it would be HUGE!
I say HUGE because it has happened in other crimes where a call in to 911 is made to test the response time....before the crime!

Sissi, in this situation, what do you think would be the purpose for testing the response time? Do you think there was an original plan that was foiled?

 

[Eagle1]

Sissy, are you saying JonBenet really didn't try to make a call, that it was FW testing the response time? Okay, maybe you're right about that.

I still say the killer molested her at the party on the 23rd, and her crying was likely because of that, and/or her being spunky enough to try to call 911 and someone snatching the phone away from her. Maybe there was no adult reason to test response time. What could they have been planning to do that would require that?

I don't think JonBenet would let Burke injure her internally and not get out of his bed, make noise to her parents, etc. It was at the party when she was crying. Someone may have taken her to the bsmt during the party and hurt her. Which was still healing 72 hrs later.

We don't really know of any reason the adults would be testing response time. I guess that's why I jumped to the conclusion JBR had tried to make a call. Maybe she'd already told that the guy hurt her and nobody was taking it seriously until she tried to make a call which could have been embarrassing for all of them. Susan Stine, I believe, turned the police away at the door, right?

 

[Nehemiah]

What is the source for JB crying at the party?

 

[sissi]

Eagle, I am not certain Fleet made that call, I am equally not certain it was Susan Stine that responded to the police knock on the door. The officer did not make a report. These are ,indeed, issues that I would like to know more about, but the sources I've found concerning them are NOT good ones, in my estimation. If you ,or anyone knows of a solid source that states Fleet made that call and Susan opened the door, I would love to take a look.

It may just be another in the "pile" of coincidences and odd occurances that surrounded this murder, however there is no doubt that a 911 call coming out of a house just days before a child's murder should have warranted serious investigation. Given the mindset of the BPD ,ya' have to wonder!

I agree, there is every reason to suspect "a someone" was bothering Jonbenet, and this same "someone" needed her dead before she left ,was out of his control and would TELL. But WHO?

There are odd characters, certainly GM was an odd one, given he was not invited, came over because the dog was barking, then stayed for the party ,makes him not quite within the boundaries of normal. He knew there was a party, a santa party, given for kids, a few neighbors and friends , yet had the need to interject himself? Very odd IMO Wasn't he supposed to have been so ill three days later that he spent Christmas evening in bed? Was the Barnhill's basement part of the investigation? No! The proverbial "ball" was dropped ,making this the best non-investigation in history, IMO.

I am also curious as to the amount of babysitters used by the Ramseys, were the neighbors ever asked to fill in ,in a pinch? Why has little been mentioned concerning Christine, who at 19 loved Jonbenet so much she willingly gave up other activities just to have an opportunity to watch her. Has anyone asked if when watching her,if she brought in a "boyfriend"? I have rarely used babysitters over the years for this reason, it seems most of my friends would have this complaint, they would hire a girl and find out invariably the girl would invite a "friend" to help her. Has this area been investigated thoroughly?

It just appears, IMO, that the BPD wanted this to be an inside job so badly, that they didn't investigate the very basic issues. A good example of this is the Kostaniks, a family who had Jonbenet with them for many hours the day before the murder, yet, had to beg for WEEKS to get the BPD to respond to their call concerning the "secret visit" from Santa. Why wouldn't the police have been at the door immediately , questioning people who may have had a clue?

 

[Nehemiah]

It just appears, IMO, that the BPD wanted this to be an inside job so badly, that they didn't investigate the very basic issues. A good example of this is the Kostaniks, a family who had Jonbenet with them for many hours the day before the murder, yet, had to beg for WEEKS to get the BPD to respond to their call concerning the "secret visit" from Santa. Why wouldn't the police have been at the door immediately , questioning people who may have had a clue?

Sissi, where did you read that they had to beg for weeks?

I, too, have wondered about GM.

 

[sissi]

Nehemiah, I either read it or heard it in an interview, will check for you.
In the meantime, for those who give santa a bit of consideration, this is a good read...
http://users.1st.net/mwells/JonBenet.htm

 

[DocWatson]

Sissi,
That was a very interesting read. Do we know from any other accounts exactly what exonerated Santa Bill? It sounds as if he came up with a bulletproof alibi, but if he had longstanding plans to pay a secret visit, presumably he also would have taken pains to establish an apparent alibi as well. I've never seriously considered him as time and again I've seen posters say that he was ruled out by police, but now I am very curious to know on what grounds they did so.

A Santa Bill intruder fits all the intruder evidence; it accounts for how this intruder knew the house and family so well, and I think motive was well established in the story you posted. Given his familiarity with the house, it allows for his having entered either while they were at the party or even after they'd gone to bed using a spare key he'd found or maybe even been given (I gather Ramseys were pretty indiscriminate about giving out keys). It even accounts for the pineapple since JonBenet might well have felt very comfortable "hanging out" with this intruder. Since it was secret, he could have easily persuaded JBR to whisper etc. and it wouldn't have seemed unusual for him to be whispering too. Moreover, Santa Bill might have been reasonably casual about being "caught" with JBR in kitchen and explained his presence to Ramseys as simply the fulfillment of a promised secret visit from Santa etc. And once he got her to the basement, he would know that the likelihood of Ramseys hearing anything at the top of the house would be infinitesimal.

A long time ago I remember reading a theory that the ligature device may have been "needed" to compensate for the perp's physical weakness. Presumably the force of the head blow may have been what Thomas thought beyond the capability of this "frail" man. But if things didn't go in the basement as expected and JBR unexpectedly screamed out, this might have angered Santa Bill greatly, in which case with his adrenaline pumping, he surely could have mustered enough force to match the strength of a 9-year old!

From where I sit, it's well worth knowing more about Santa Bill.

 

[Jayelles]

We know that his DNA was tested quite early on in the case. I would imagine that went some way to eliminating him as well as his fragile state of health. I have always struggled with the concept of a person with a serious heart complaint putting themselves into a situation where the "excitement" (I mean that in the medical sense) could kill them. I mean, supposing Santa collapsed? He'd have a helluva job explaining himself.

 

[DocWatson]

We know that his DNA was tested quite early on in the case. I would imagine that went some way to eliminating him as well as his fragile state of health. I have always struggled with the concept of a person with a serious heart complaint putting themselves into a situation where the "excitement" (I mean that in the medical sense) could kill them. I mean, supposing Santa collapsed? He'd have a helluva job explaining himself.

But isn't it interesting how DNA can be used to exclude Santa Bill but not the Ramseys? Whenever I bring up DNA as exculpatory for Ramseys, I tend to get shouted down "isn't a DNA case" etc.

We don't know his state of mind and we also don't know his intentions that night. Maybe he actually did plan to escape with her and somehow get ransom money, but JBR freaked out and it made him mad enough to kill her. He actually did die a few years later, so perhaps after his August surgery he didn't think he had that much more time on earth. Perhaps by that time he would have been perfectly happy to die in a state of excitement (and remember, there was no semen evidence so he might not have gotten all that excited to begin with). I'm reasonably certain killers don't necessarily think like you and I might.

 

[Jayelles]

But isn't it interesting how DNA can be used to exclude Santa Bill but not the Ramseys? Whenever I bring up DNA as exculpatory for Ramseys, I tend to get shouted down "isn't a DNA case" etc.

We don't know his state of mind and we also don't know his intentions that night. Maybe he actually did plan to escape with her and somehow get ransom money, but JBR freaked out and it made him mad enough to kill her. He actually did die a few years later, so perhaps after his August surgery he didn't think he had that much more time on earth. Perhaps by that time he would have been perfectly happy to die in a state of excitement (and remember, there was no semen evidence so he might not have gotten all that excited to begin with). I'm reasonably certain killers don't necessarily think like you and I might.

OK, so we're going to disregard the DNA - which rules everyone back in (including the ramseys).

How far would Santa Bill have to travel that night to commit this murder?

Did he have any history which would make him a likely suspect? I understand he was described as effeminate and that there is a little matter of an interest in some gay . Would that make him a good suspect for the murder and sexual assault of a little girl?

Regarding the excitement, I think you misunderstand. I wasn't suggesting sexual excitement. I was referring to adrenalin pumping - the thrill of the kill so to speak.

What do you think his motive was?

 

[DocWatson]

OK, so we're going to disregard the DNA - which rules everyone back in (including the ramseys).

Fine by me so long as we use the WEIGHT of the evidence, in its entirety, when judging suspects.

How far would Santa Bill have to travel that night to commit this murder?

I thought he lived right in town, so I don't think his travel time/distance would have been appreciably further than Wolf, Helgoth and other similar suspects. Someone with more details at their fingertips than I could probably say for certain what distance this was, but I haven't heard any claims that he was out of town that night, so am not certain this distance is that relevant (2 miles vs. 20 miles: would it appreciably change our assessment of his ability to commit the crime?)

Did he have any history which would make him a likely suspect? I understand he was described as effeminate and that there is a little matter of an interest in some gay . Would that make him a good suspect for the murder and sexual assault of a little girl?

If you read the "history" Sissi pointed to earlier, you'd see there's sure an extraordinary number of "coincidences" including 22nd anniversary TO THE DAY of his own daughter's death etc. [each one can be explained away, but the combination is rather extraordinary: if Santa Bill had immediately been identified as the killer, we would have looked back on all these coincidences and said "Well, duh! THAT was an easy case to solve."]

It's been said many times that it's not clear this was a sexual crime or an effort to make it LOOK like a sexual crime. Motive may have been some sort of anger towards John, for example (that's certainly what one picks up in the RN), in which case anything sexual done to JBR is to get to JOHN not for sexual gratification etc. In the history, you see multiple clues that Santa Bill was "obsessed" with JBR, so the fact that he may have gotten off on gay doesn't automatically rule him out. If there was evidence of actual rape, that might be harder to explain etc.

Regarding the excitement, I think you misunderstand. I wasn't suggesting sexual excitement. I was referring to adrenalin pumping - the thrill of the kill so to speak.

What do you think his motive was?

As indicated above, taking all the evidence together, my best guess would be some sort of anger at John: perhaps he was jealous of John's financial success and/or his "perfect" (to all appearances) life in terms of material goods, marriage to a former beauty queen, charming daughter etc. John was on an upward trajectory in terms of business sucess and the prospects for JBR being a huge star (if she'd lived to enter Miss America pageant, would anyone have been surprised that she won?). Santa Bill's life may have been a pretty sharp contrast to that and given the trigger of the holidays and depression related to remembering his daughter's death, that might have been enough to set him off. Depression often manifests itself as anger/rage in men. So even a small tiff between him and John over his Santa activities may have been enough to plot to get even etc.

Again, the foregoing is all contingent on it being physically possible for Santa Bill to have done this--i.e., unaccounted for up to several hours without being noticed by his wife or anyone else. At some level, given that some of the coincidences involve her novels, I guess I'd be willing to entertain possibility of conspiracy between Bill and his wife, but it seems to me that it would vastly complicate the story.

 

[sissi]

In that interview , the one where he mentioned his daughter was killed, it was an "ODD SLIP", his daughter was kidnapped on that date, not murdered. In fact his daughter ,along with a little friend ,was abducted and ,while his own was untouched, the other little girl was molested. No one was ever brought to justice on this either, and among the "santa did its" it has been suggested it was him, however there is no information to back this.

What I do not understand, is, if his dna cleared him, why did he remain Keenan's suspect? If it didn't clear him, why wasn't he named? "Kinda" makes ya' wonder if his dna was tested at all!!!

 

[Jayelles]

I've checked out Sissi's link and I don't know who this Bonnie Wells is, but she's pretty unimpressive in the credibility stakes.

First of all, it cites an interview on "American Journal" on 4th March 1997 where Bill McReynolds allegedly stated that his own daughter had been kidnapped and murdered on 26th December some years before.

I had difficulty concentrating on the rest of the interview because my mind wanted to keep going back to what the man had already said.



The man's next comments absolutely sent me into orbit .....

He said he'd suffered a tragedy in his own life a few years earlier when his own daughter had been kidnapped and murdered on (Christmas night!) McReynolds claimed it was then and there that he decided to celebrate Christmas by trying to make other children happy.​

​

Well I have hunted for this interview and I cannot find a single reference to it ... apart from Ms Wells page.

On 4th March 1997, the McReynoldses were on Larry King Live and the transcript can be found here:-

http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/03041997mcreynoldsonlkl.htm

They do mention the daughter's kidnapping, but certainly didn't suggest that she had been murdered.

Wells also makes a deal of the fact that the McReynolds failed to mention their daughter's kidnapping on the same date as jonbenet's "kidnapping" but Janet McReynolds explains:-

JANET MCREYNOLDS: That is true. We were really rather startled when we discovered that our daughter's kidnapping had happened on the anniversary of JonBenet's death because we weren't aware of it until it was called to our attention.

We had, of course, rather buried the incident in our own minds and certainly would not have been observing the anniversary. And we had simply forgotten the date. We didn't know it until they called our attention to it.

The day BEFORE Wells claims santa said his daughter had been murdered, there was an article in the newspapers about Santa's daughter's abduction. Again, no suggestion that Santa was weaving a lie about her being murdered:-

One is the fact that the McReynoldses' middle daughter, then 9, was abducted along with a friend in Longmont and witnessed the sexual molestation of her friend. The incident occurred on Dec. 26, 1974. No suspects were ever arrested.

http://www.boulderdailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/1997/03/03-1.html

The McReynolds gave several interviews, the transcripts of which can be found at ACR's excellent archive. In none of them does McSanta say his own daughter was kidnapped and murdered. Only Bonnie Wells suggests he did. She doesn't back it up with a transcript or a reference - only that she "heard" him say it.

On that basis, I would suggest that her webpage lacks a great deal of credibility.

NB - regarding where the McSanta's live. They stayed 20 miles away from the Ramseys - in a town called Longmont. They were hardly neighbours!

 

[Jayelles]

Bonnie Wells also claims that Bill Mcreynolds claimed authorship of the "Hey Rube" play.

McReynolds said he'd been a journalist for most of his life and had tried his hand at short story writing a time or two. One of his stories had been about a girl who was murdered in her own home and then carried down to the basement and left!
​

In fact, it was his wife who wrote it and in all of the interviews they gave, there was never any dispute about that.

Bonnie Wells also states that the play was about a girl who was tortured and murdered in the basement of her/a house. In fact, Janet McReynolds makes it quite clear that the girl was NOT murdered in the basement of the house. She was tortured but was rescued alive and taken to hospital. Later, she died there, never recovering from her injuries.

 

[sissi]

I do recall Wells mentioned the errors and stated the facts after. This was mentioned by others that witnessed the interview that santa was confused, whether it is an urban legend type of thing or not, I do not know, but I do know if you read Wells you will note that she wonders why he said "murdered" and "why he said He wrote the play", she thought of it as confusion on his part.

 

[sissi]

Bonnie Wells also claims that Bill Mcreynolds claimed authorship of the "Hey Rube" play.

In fact, it was his wife who wrote it and in all of the interviews they gave, there was never any dispute about that.

Bonnie Wells also states that the play was about a girl who was tortured and murdered in the basement of her/a house. In fact, Janet McReynolds makes it quite clear that the girl was NOT murdered in the basement of the house. She was tortured but was rescued alive and taken to hospital. Later, she died there, never recovering from her injuries.

Hmm, I forgot Janet lied about this..I wonder why? She was imprisoned and tortured in a basement, brought upstairs and placed in a bed when it was obvious she was almost dead.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/young/likens/11.html?sect=10
The child was continually attacked and thrown back into a basement...the book is "The Basement"

BTW mention of Janet in the above..

then the non fiction..
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cach...tml+the+basement+sylvia+likens&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

 

[Jayelles]

I do recall Wells mentioned the errors and stated the facts after. This was mentioned by others that witnessed the interview that santa was confused, whether it is an urban legend type of thing or not, I do not know, but I do know if you read Wells you will note that she wonders why he said "murdered" and "why he said He wrote the play", she thought of it as confusion on his part.

I don't see where she mentions the errors.

As I read it, much of Bonnie Wells suspicion on McSanta is based upon conclusions she has reached through her own mistakes! She writes about McSanta saying his daughter was murdered and claiming to have written the play .... and you are saying that she wondered if HE was confused when he said this. It seems more likely that it was her who was confused in thinking she heard it!

Also, she discusses the fact that he frequented an ADULT bookshop and speculates that he may therefore be a paedophile ???????? Hmmm.

 

[Jayelles]

Hmm, I forgot Janet lied about this..I wonder why? She was imprisoned and tortured in a basement, brought upstairs and placed in a bed when it was obvious she was almost dead.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/young/likens/11.html?sect=10
The child was continually attacked and thrown back into a basement...the book is "The Basement"

BTW mention of Janet in the above..

then the non fiction..
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:FMEQV87BATAJ:www.indystar.com/library/factfiles/crime/history/likens_sylvia/articles/040399.html+the+basement+sylvia+likens&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

I'm sorry Sissi. I'm not seeing where she lied about anything. She said her play was based on the Sylvia Likens case. Could you say more specifically what she lied about?

 

[Jayelles]

Janet said:-

My play was loosely based on, or suggested by, a real-life murder

http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/03041997mcreynoldsonlkl.htm

 

[sissi]

I'm sorry Sissi. I'm not seeing where she lied about anything. She said her play was based on the Sylvia Likens case. Could you say more specifically what she lied about?

The girl was tormented tortured and received mortal wounds in that basement, the fact that they brought her upstairs in the end, only means she didn't die in the basement, but if you count the injuries as causing her murder, she was murdered in the basement.