Off topic, but I would like to share with you

[tipper]

[...]



My own gut feeling is that it is unlikely that the ramseys killed Jonbenet. However, no matter what way you spin it, the evidence doesn't clear them. Therefore, although I would leave no stone overturned looking for an intruder, I most certainly would NOT be crusading for two parents who cannot be cleared on evidence, who were insulted at being asked to take polygraphs, who wouldn't set foot in the police station and who wouldn't sit down and give police interviews until their daughter had been dead in the ground for four months!

I guess that's where we are different. If, in my gut, I feel someone is innocent I'm not going to add my voice to those who are constantly tearing them down. If they are innocent, their child was brutally murdered while they slept. I'm not going to go out of my way to criticize them simply because they did not make the same decisions I might have made. I am not going to align myself with those who have gone out of their way to have a negative impact on the Ramsey's life. I'm not going to assume malevolence exists simply because some of their values and priorities are different than mine. Not and at the same time claim I think, in my gut, they could well be innocent.

If they are guilty, they're guilty. As I have said in other posts, there are things that could change my mind. So far I haven't seen any of them. But if they are innocent - I would rather go to sleep knowing that even though I couldn't make their life any better I hadn't contributed in any way to making it worse.

 

[Jayelles]

I guess that's where we are different. If, in my gut, I feel someone is innocent I'm not going to add my voice to those who are constantly tearing them down. If they are innocent, their child was brutally murdered while they slept. I'm not going to go out of my way to criticize them simply because they did not make the same decisions I might have made. I am not going to align myself with those who have gone out of their way to have a negative impact on the Ramsey's life. I'm not going to assume malevolence exists simply because some of their values and priorities are different than mine. Not and at the same time claim I think, in my gut, they could well be innocent.

If they are guilty, they're guilty. As I have said in other posts, there are things that could change my mind. So far I haven't seen any of them. But if they are innocent - I would rather go to sleep knowing that even though I couldn't make their life any better I hadn't contributed in any way to making it worse.

I think the difference between us is considerably less subtle. As I see it, there are two completely separate issues here:-

1. The Ramseys' level of participation in JonBenet's murder (and that may be zero).
2. The Ramsey's level of participation in the investigation.

On the first point, I believe Patsy to be innocent and I think John is probably innocent. On the second point, I think John Ramsey is responsible for a level of non-coperation which is tantamount to obstruction of justice and yes, I will criticise the ramseys for that. I criticise Patsy to a lesser extent because I think John ran the show.

They deserve criticism for the way they refused interviews until a stage where their memories were faded. They deserve criticism for putting themselves before the investigation.

There is a difference between giving them the presumption of innocence until proven guilty and crusading for them. The victim was JonBenet - her parents owed it to her to help in every way possible with finding the person who did that to her and they failed her. They chose instead to proclaim indignance at being treated like suspects and to waste time with petty objections to WHERE they would agree to be interviewed....how much time they would grant investigators for answering vital questions etc

I will never condone that behaviour nor try to rationalise it - no matter how innocent I may believe them to be. Believing them guilty of obstruction of justice is NOT the same as believing them to be guilty of murder. I'd like to think my ability to recognise that is proof of a level of objectivity.

I have tried for nearly six years to try and make sense of it all. I have read thousands of posts and arguments put forward by hundreds of forum members and journalists and other commentators. I try to evaluate the worth of the arguments and opinions by establishing a profile of the person putting them forward. If the person is a reliable source and makes common-sensical observations, then I will value their opinion on other matters more. However, when I see that someone will never see any wrong in a couple of people who have lied and demonstrated breathtaking arrogance towards the very people who are seeking justice for a little 6 year old murder victim, then I am afraid I do not rate their opinions very highly at all. I consider them to be incapable of any degree of objectivity - like the mother of the serial killer who whines "He's a good boy at heart".

When I see RST posters saying "Oh the Ramseys aren't perfect - I never said they were" and then proceed to rationalise every aspect of the Ramseys' obstructive behaviour... every piece of undatable evidence, not matter how ridiculous. I'm afraid I would not place too much stock by their opinions at all.

I think we owe it to JonBenet to remain open-minded about her parents' involvement - no matter how inconceivable that may be. It is one thing to give them the presumption of innocence and quite another to hero-worship them and give them a "pass".

 

[Brefie]

Fantastic post, Jayelles.

 

[BlueCrab]

Fantastic post, Jayelles.

I agree.

 

[UKGuy]

On the first point, I believe Patsy to be innocent and I think John is probably innocent.

Jayelles,

I would afford the Ramsey's the presumption of innocence, as I would anyone else facing criminal allegations.

But the evidence has never been tested in court, leading to a Jury decision of Not Guilty.

Therefore I consider all names are in the hat when it comes to attributing responsibility for JonBenet's homicide.

.

 

[sandraladeda]

Bravo Jayelles....:clap:

 

[azwriter]

They deserve criticism for the way they refused interviews until a stage where their memories were faded. They deserve criticism for putting themselves before the investigation.
QUOTE]

Jayelles, I agree with this statement of yours 100 percent. Especially when you consider Patsy and John appeared on the Larry King show less than a week after their daughter was found dead in the basement.
Why did they make that appearance?
I think it was to begin their campaign to appear innocent of any crime against daughter. The Ramsey's knew right away they would be in the spotlight as suspects. They took the case to the people immediately and it wasn't to find their daughter's killer.
JMO

 

[azwriter]

I'm with you Ellen, I too was very curious about the Heaven's Gate Black Nike travelers. Especially since I was in the same Denney's in Carlsbad they visited before they completed their death ride.
True crime has fascinated me since I first read a book about the Lindberg kidnapping when I was in high school about 40 years ago.
The Jonesboro case also caught my attention back in the late 70s or early 80s. A great book on that mass sucide is The Raven, a life story of Jim Jones.
True crime is compelling.

 

[LinasK]

To me the only possible explanation for the Ramsey's obstructionist behavior is their guilt. They are trying to point suspicion away from them, much like Scott Peterson tried to(for example trying to corrupt the dog searches by showing up in his wife's vehicle), they are just much better at doing it.
I have known a few celebrities in my time, just not in the crime world. I've always been fascinated by what makes the criminal mind tick. Started with the Jeffrey McDonald murders I think, but the Laci Peterson case is what brought me to Websleuths.

 

[Jayelles]

They deserve criticism for the way they refused interviews until a stage where their memories were faded. They deserve criticism for putting themselves before the investigation.
QUOTE]

Jayelles, I agree with this statement of yours 100 percent. Especially when you consider Patsy and John appeared on the Larry King show less than a week after their daughter was found dead in the basement.
Why did they make that appearance?
I think it was to begin their campaign to appear innocent of any crime against daughter. The Ramsey's knew right away they would be in the spotlight as suspects. They took the case to the people immediately and it wasn't to find their daughter's killer.
JMO

I think John Ramsey is a social snob - a man with a chip on his shoulder about status and I think the first TV appearance was a public relations move to let the world see "the kind of people we are". I think everything has been about "the kind of people we are". I think he thought about his wealthy, high-status friends and whether they would hang around with a couple who were being interviewed by police. I think his response was to act as though they were above all that and I don't think he expected the media to use it against them.

The fact is - JohnBenet's murder did reaveal the kind of person he was and it wasn't pretty. If the ramseys had put their energies into co-operating with the police instead of dodging them, they would have become darlings instead of demons. Brenda van dam was on a tv chat show here and the nation took her to their heart because of her sadness and her passion for using her experience to protect other children. She dealt with questions about their prior lifestyle honestly.

People are forgiving - when someone admits their failings and faults and shows remorse, it is human nature to forgive and to want to move forward in a positive way. The vanDams did some dodgy things - but they were honest about them and it quickly went out of focus.

The Ramseys have never shown any regrets for the way they behaved. Always the point the finger of blame elsewhere. It's always someone else's fault. That is such an ugly trait.

It could have been so different for them - and it is the legacy they are leaving their family.

 

[Brefie]

Jayelles - you are dishing out some corkers, lately.

Another brilliant post!

 

[ellen13]

I'm with you Ellen, I too was very curious about the Heaven's Gate Black Nike travelers. Especially since I was in the same Denney's in Carlsbad they visited before they completed their death ride.
True crime has fascinated me since I first read a book about the Lindberg kidnapping when I was in high school about 40 years ago.
The Jonesboro case also caught my attention back in the late 70s or early 80s. A great book on that mass sucide is The Raven, a life story of Jim Jones.
True crime is compelling.

Hey azwriter,
I appreciate your taking the time to respond to my initial post. Glad to hear I'm not the only one who was obsesssed with the Nike's and purple shrouds-wow,
the whole Denney's in Carlsbad was a weird coincidence. You must have really tripped out on that one! I was also interested in the Jim Jones Mass Suicide, too. Now, the Lindberg kidnapping was before my time, but I'm starting to learn bits and pieces. When that kidnapping happened, did you ever think
it was the parents? And, are there any parallels with the Lindbergs and the
Rams?
Thanks,
ellen13

 

[azwriter]

Hey azwriter,
I appreciate your taking the time to respond to my initial post. Glad to hear I'm not the only one who was obsesssed with the Nike's and purple shrouds-wow,
the whole Denney's in Carlsbad was a weird coincidence. You must have really tripped out on that one! I was also interested in the Jim Jones Mass Suicide, too. Now, the Lindberg kidnapping was before my time, but I'm starting to learn bits and pieces. When that kidnapping happened, did you ever think
it was the parents? And, are there any parallels with the Lindbergs and the
Rams?
Thanks,
ellen13

Ellen, There are new books out on the kidnapping of the Linberg child. The more I read, the more I see that Charles, the child's father, was kooky enough to have tried to play a prank on his wife by hiding the baby. There are reports he'd done it before.
However, I do believe he dropped the poor kid while he was descending the ladder and the rest of it was a cover up.
It's a compelling case but can't see any relationship with the Ramseys except it too was a coverup of knowing the true story.
Have a good day.

 

[aussiesheila]

Do you ever wonder if people we are conversing with on this site know
more, or are a part of the Ram's case, family members, etc.?
I mean, my only claim to fame is that the second author of Helter Skelter
is a friend of mine. On a different note, the only other thing I can contribute is that as I was
going to college and was going to become a teacher and my college criminology
professor called me at home to talk me out of going into teaching and
to consider a career in criminology because he said I showed interest and potential. He is one of the leading experts on Serial Killers in the country. That was back when I was 21. I'm now
in my 30's. AFter 10 years of teaching (which I don't regret in the least) I feel like I really missed my calling
and should have listened to him. I mean, I think I want a job in the morgue or something. True Crime is the only thing I've been
interested in for years. Would anyone else want to share any of their backgrounds? I mean, were you all glued to the tv when Heaven's Gate
had done a group suicide, wearing purple shrouds and Nike's, back in the
mid 90's??? Everyone thought I was crazy for watching it and becoming obsessed with it. This is probably boring for some of you, so just ignore it. I think what really got me into True Crime was when I was 16 years old, living in an apt. with my mom. I was never sick, but the one day I happened to stay home sick, there was a murder next door to my apt. and I walked outside to see all of the police tape and police cars. I have to say that was the day I knew I was into it. Once I get past the initial shock and sadness of what the murder victim had gone through, I then get into my crime solving mode.
So, my question to you Websleuths and JBR followers is this, at what point did you first get interested in True Crime? Was it the JBR case, or was it before that? How long have you all been on the JBR case. Also, if anyone could contribute something about themselves, without revealing too much, would you share with me?
Thanks so much! I appreciate all of you here on the JBR site. You make my days very interesting with all of your input, you're patient with me, you're intelligent, articulate, and knowledgable, and I am honored to be associated with you all. I just wish that I knew more about the people I talk with everyday.
Ellen13-why 13? (it's my lucky number)

Do I ever wonder if people we are conversing with on this site know more, or are a part of the Ram's case, family members, etc.? Yes Ellen13, I do, but I don't like to point fingers at anyone. I have to say I am not part of the Ram's case or a family member, etc.

I too, am obsessed with true crime and my family think I am mad. I think I first became interested in the early 80s when the second Azaria Chamberlain inquest began. The first inquest concluded that a dingo took the baby, but then news broke that the baby's throat had been slit with a pair of scissors and I thought WOW and I was hooked. No that's wrong, I remember further back now - the Bogle Chandler mystery. That was when I got hooked. It was New Year's Eve Sydney 1960 I think, probably before you were born - bohemian academics, wife swapping, drugs, beards, long hair, all pretty wild in 60s Australia I can tell you. The woman who was murdered had lived around the corner from us for a short while. That is a great one, you should look it up, it has never been solved, some people have theorised the CIA were involved. I am still interested but a lot of the people involved have died so I don't think we'll ever learn any more. I'll just have to be satisfied with my own little theory about it (which doesn't involve the CIA, just a former spurned lover). We currently have another great one unsolved one - the Phillip Island murders, one woman found dead, another missing, abandoned car by bridge. Oh I could go on and on. What about the Lord Lucan one? And it's not just the murders themselves, it's the way police can mess investigations up, sometimes deliberately, as happened in the Chamberlain case, the flawed forensic evidence they produced and that the jury believed was simply amazing!

Maybe you should consider further training to lead you into a career that fascinates you, you are young enough.

Another interest of mine is child sexual abuse, which is what drew me to this case. It was obvious to me from the early reports that came out that sexual abuse was connected to the murder but in the early days I was not on the net and only got more into the case 6 years ago when I read PMPT. It must be pretty obvious from my posts that I see the existence of pedophiles where most others don't and some people must think I'm a bit nuts, and they may be right. It might also be obvious that I hate pedophiles with a passion and this is true, I do. They are the cause so much misery in people's lives and many suicides and I would like to see them all exposed.

 

[aussiesheila]

Hey azwriter,
Now, the Lindberg kidnapping was before my time, but I'm starting to learn bits and pieces. When that kidnapping happened, did you ever think
it was the parents? And, are there any parallels with the Lindbergs and the
Rams?
Thanks,
ellen13

I think there was - the Lindbergs called the police didn't they? Even when the kidnapper told them not to?

 

[ellen13]

Do I ever wonder if people we are conversing with on this site know more, or are a part of the Ram's case, family members, etc.? Yes Ellen13, I do, but I don't like to point fingers at anyone. I have to say I am not part of the Ram's case or a family member, etc.

I too, am obsessed with true crime and my family think I am mad. I think I first became interested in the early 80s when the second Azaria Chamberlain inquest began. The first inquest concluded that a dingo took the baby, but then news broke that the baby's throat had been slit with a pair of scissors and I thought WOW and I was hooked. No that's wrong, I remember further back now - the Bogle Chandler mystery. That was when I got hooked. It was New Year's Eve Sydney 1960 I think, probably before you were born - bohemian academics, wife swapping, drugs, beards, long hair, all pretty wild in 60s Australia I can tell you. The woman who was murdered had lived around the corner from us for a short while. That is a great one, you should look it up, it has never been solved, some people have theorised the CIA were involved. I am still interested but a lot of the people involved have died so I don't think we'll ever learn any more. I'll just have to be satisfied with my own little theory about it (which doesn't involve the CIA, just a former spurned lover). We currently have another great one unsolved one - the Phillip Island murders, one woman found dead, another missing, abandoned car by bridge. Oh I could go on and on. What about the Lord Lucan one? And it's not just the murders themselves, it's the way police can mess investigations up, sometimes deliberately, as happened in the Chamberlain case, the flawed forensic evidence they produced and that the jury believed was simply amazing!

Maybe you should consider further training to lead you into a career that fascinates you, you are young enough.

Another interest of mine is child sexual abuse, which is what drew me to this case. It was obvious to me from the early reports that came out that sexual abuse was connected to the murder but in the early days I was not on the net and only got more into the case 6 years ago when I read PMPT. It must be pretty obvious from my posts that I see the existence of pedophiles where most others don't and some people must think I'm a bit nuts, and they may be right. It might also be obvious that I hate pedophiles with a passion and this is true, I do. They are the cause so much misery in people's lives and many suicides and I would like to see them all exposed.

Thanks Aussiesheila,
Thanks for responding to my thread. Your story is fascinating! Thanks for sharing everything. The mysteries you mentioned above sound quite intriguing-and you're right, it's upsetting when the police muck it up. Imagine accusing the dingo! You all have some very interesting unsolved crime in Australia as well.
In terms of the Lindberg kidnapping, do you recommend any books that are good on that one?

 

[tipper]

Thanks Aussiesheila,
Thanks for responding to my thread. Your story is fascinating! Thanks for sharing everything. The mysteries you mentioned above sound quite intriguing-and you're right, it's upsetting when the police muck it up. Imagine accusing the dingo! You all have some very interesting unsolved crime in Australia as well.
In terms of the Lindberg kidnapping, do you recommend any books that are good on that one?

Imagine accusing the dingo?

 

[dingo]

Hi Ellen, the dingo was found guilty in this case.

 

[aussiesheila]

Thanks Aussiesheila,
Thanks for responding to my thread. Your story is fascinating! Thanks for sharing everything. The mysteries you mentioned above sound quite intriguing-and you're right, it's upsetting when the police muck it up. Imagine accusing the dingo! You all have some very interesting unsolved crime in Australia as well.
In terms of the Lindberg kidnapping, do you recommend any books that are good on that one?

Yes imagine accusing the dingo! And that was just who it turned out to be in the end. An unbelievable story that the mother said was what happened and stuck to, and that unbelievable story was finally agreed to be true when further evidence came to light some 8 years down the track.

Sorry, never got into the Lindberg kidnapping, too straightforward, no mystery.

 

[Malapoo]

The Ramseys seemed more focused on proving themselves innocent then finding out who was guilty. I often wonder if another child has fallen victim to JonBenet's killer since and if so, the Ramseys are at least a little to blame. I think if I had a child and she/he was killed, first of all, I know LE works from those closest and then spreads out as they eliminate family and friends (if they do) so I do everything I can to cooperate so they can clear me quickly and go after the true perpetrator.