OH - Chanan Palmer, 31, & 4 kids killed in arson fire, Greenville, 16 Sept 2007

[shadowraiths]

a 16 year old that rapes a 5 year old at knife point is a sex offender and i say throw away the key. a 9 year old that commits the same crime is a child that can be saved (maybe).

True, however most children classified as JSOs do not fall into the above. And while some do engage in what we, as adults, would characterize as sexually inappropriate behavior (for example, the group elementary school kids who mauled the 4th grader), many are simply not cognitively capable of understanding the sexualized (as classified by us adults) nature of their boundary violating behavior. And yes, there are children who do fall into your example. Sadly.

Can they be helped/saved? While I would say that it depends, I also tend to lean more towards the "yes." Simply bc the frontal lobes (that part of the brain which is used to regulate appropriate social behavior, for example, impulse control) is still in the formation phase. In fact, research indicates that the frontal lobes are not fully formed until around 25 years old.

As for JSO treatment? Imnsho, the way we are "clinically treating" JSOs, today, presents a very high risk model for future offending. In fact, I strongly feel that JSO programs, as they are implemented today, are very much part of the problem, rather than the solution.

 

[shadowraiths]

No I didn;t go with my blackberry, I had to use my blackberry when my computer crashed.
I have every blocker I know of, but it just wasn't enough ,which was my point.
My computer is messed up and I won;t be going back so I'll worry about it tomorrow.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. Very bizarre indeed.

 

[JBean]

Ah, thanks for the clarification. Very bizarre indeed.

thanks for your help...I guess we have spent enough time on it. It was very stange indeed. I never have any problems and am protected up the ying yang and I clicked that link and all heck broke loose! I will work on it tomorrow.

 

[southcitymom]

I would take the links down, just in case!

 

[KatK]

I would take the links down, just in case!

I posted a warning in the post, and I contacted adnoid. I want to know *WHICH* link has caused the problem, and how.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Can I ask for more details about his life?
I think at 7 who taught that???

I know he suffered watching mom having sex for money. I know he had been taken from her in another state by CPS but later returned. Never could get a straight answer or his file from Tennessee. I would bet he was molested by a john of hers or was sold to one for sex. I know he tortured small animals, set fires before and was a bedwetter, while in this state. After the fire, his mother left the state with him, and DYFS couldn't "justify the expense" of tracking them down.

 

[Linda7NJ]

That books sounds very interesting. Do you know the title?

I would like to know more about this boy too. I would like to see that he gets help along with punishment.

Read anything by the #1 expert on the subject, Robert Hare IMO

 

[Linda7NJ]

No, it isn't. True diagnosed psychopaths are like schizophrenics. They are mentally ill, and there is an organic component at the root of it.

I think there brains do not function the way a normal persons does. I think there is often frontal lobe damage.

 

[Linda7NJ]

. Yes, I am very much against labeling children psychopaths (or any other thing, such as juvenile sex offenders, for that matter), (click here).

I disagree. There are indeed children that are psychopaths as well as juvenile sex offenders. There are children that will, without a doubt, only gets worse as they age.

YOU may be more comfortable labeling them severely conduct disordered...but fear not...they will grow into their adult titles.

I lived with one, he was 12. I worked with one ( the 7 yr old) In over 20 years working with children...they were the only two I ever came across. But I know they're out there. The 12 year old was good at it too...so charming, his personality was mimicked a total facade.....covering a truly evil, twisted and sadistic warped mind. Truly lacked a conscience.

Let me tell you, that child scares the outta me! I am still afraid of him and hope to move before he is released.

 

[Linda7NJ]

for me it partly comes down to what do you think of as a "child". a 16 year old that rapes a 5 year old at knife point is a sex offender and i say throw away the key. a 9 year old that commits the same crime is a child that can be saved (maybe). they both are probably acting out abuse they suffered but at some point you pass beyond childhood in the understanding of your own actions and the harm you can cause. i do think some children can not be helped. i do not think we can tell which child is beyond help. while young we can mold their minds and heart. the same way a pedo can scar a child we can heal them with love and the right therapy. i feel you can not throw away a child because there is no test that says "this child is beyond help" that has results we can trust 100%. having said that i strongly feel children that are a danger to others must be locked away in a secure facility. i just think that facility needs equal parts punishment and help while these kids are young enough we can change them.

:clap: :clap:

 

[shadowraiths]

The original news article does not appear to be available any longer but this is interesting...

Granddad: Cops pressured boy over fire!!!
By DAN SEWELL, Associated Press Writer
Fri Sep 28, 6:17 PM ET

A 10-year-old accused of deliberately setting a fire that killed his mother, sister and three other children was interrogated alone and wasn't told of his right to an attorney, his step-grandfather said Friday.

"They just kept pressuring him," Rocky Reed said of Timothy Douglas Byers, who faces five delinquency counts of murder and one delinquency count of aggravated arson in the Sept. 16 duplex fire in Greenville, about 30 miles northwest of Dayton.

Greenville police, who have said the boy confessed to deliberately setting the fire, questioned him three times behind closed doors at the police station, the last time for two hours straight, Reed said. Each time, Reed had to remain outside despite his request to be present, he said. "They told me I would influence his answers," he said.

Reed said the boy wasn't told of his legal right to have an attorney present.

"He wasn't told. I wasn't either," Reed said by telephone. "I did not even know he was a suspect."

Here's the original link, though, it no longer works.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070928...d&printer=1;_ylt=AsHIx5JBuNbuHPi3J4wNku1H2ocA

 

[shadowraiths]

YOU may be more comfortable labeling them severely conduct disordered...but fear not...they will grow into their adult titles.

Actually, I don't like labeling children (even under the rubric, conduct disorder). Does that mean that I do not think some children would not meet Hare's definition of psychopathy? Of course not. I simply think that, we, as the adults in society, need to exercise extreme caution when it comes to labeling. Esp wrt labeling children. Dr. Kenneth Pope (who resigned from the APA after their stance wrt torture) explains the "whys" better than I.

Pope, K. S.; Vasquez, M. J. T. (1998)
Ethics in Psychotherapy and Counseling: A Practical Guide.
Page 188

Therapists possess, to a limited but substantial extent, the power of naming and defining. To diagnose someone is to exercise power. In reporting one of the most widely-cited psychological research studies, "On Being Sane in Insane Places," in the journal Science, Rosenhan (1973) wrote, "Such labels, conferred by mental health professionals, are as influential on the patient as they are on his [sic] relatives and friends, and it should not surprise anyone that the diagnosis acts on all of them as a self-fulfilling prophesy. Eventually, the patient himself [sic] accepts the diagnosis, with all of its surplus meanings and expectations, and behaves accordingly" (see also Langer & Abelson, 1974; Mednick. 1989; Murphy, 1976; Pope, 1996; Pope, Butcher & Seelen, 2000; Reiser & Levenson, 1984; Chapter 9 of this book). The potential power of diagnosis and other forms of clinical naming to affect how individuals are perceived is illustrated in Caplan's (1995) description of psychiatrist Bruno Bettelheim's analysis of student protesters: "In the turbulent 1960s, Bettelheim (1969) told the United States Congress of his findings: student anti-war protesters who charged the University of Chicago with complicity in the war machine had no serious political agenda; they were acting out an unresolved Oedipal conflict by attacking the university as a surrogate father."

 

[Truly]

Shadowraiths, thanks for the very knowlegeable posts. That last quote by Bettleheim is precisely why I take psychiatry with a shaker of salt! I took one glance at Freud and realized that the man was cuckoo-banannas! Distilling the opposition to the Vietnam war down into some daddy-issue and stating to Congress that the students were at fault is practically the definition of insanity! One thing I have never understood is how so many parents nowadays are so willing to pump their children full of drugs. Why? Because a 'doctor' says that the kid is anti-war?

Seriously, I do agree that kids are affected negatively by being told that they are damaged and that they need drugs to be normal. It is not just the really disturbed children being given drugs; I think it is whoever the drug companies can push them to. I would guess that that alone is enough to further alienate your average teenager, being told that he is damaged. (Labels are for canned goods.)

I also think that violence is presented as entertainment, in the exact same over-stimulated and non-empathetic form as a psychopath has been described here as experiencing. Which is interesting. Are regular kids being fed a psychopath's diet? Kids act out what they see around them, and a 10-year-old is still a kid.

 

[sherri79]

True, however most children classified as JSOs do not fall into the above. And while some do engage in what we, as adults, would characterize as sexually inappropriate behavior (for example, the group elementary school kids who mauled the 4th grader), many are simply not cognitively capable of understanding the sexualized (as classified by us adults) nature of their boundary violating behavior. And yes, there are children who do fall into your example. Sadly.

Can they be helped/saved? While I would say that it depends, I also tend to lean more towards the "yes." Simply bc the frontal lobes (that part of the brain which is used to regulate appropriate social behavior, for example, impulse control) is still in the formation phase. In fact, research indicates that the frontal lobes are not fully formed until around 25 years old.

As for JSO treatment? Imnsho, the way we are "clinically treating" JSOs, today, presents a very high risk model for future offending. In fact, I strongly feel that JSO programs, as they are implemented today, are very much part of the problem, rather than the solution.

regaurdless of the title or lable we place on the child the danger will still be there. yes a 16 year old still lacks impulse control and that should be taken into account with behavior. i have been using the worse case examples such as rape of a small child but we can see the impulse issue in every day teens. a 16 year knows if they yell at their mom they are in trouble yet they will react in frustration and scream "oh my god! shut up!" then regret it the next second. too late you can not take it back. a clear case of impulse control issues. at 25 the same child will still think mom is nagging but smile and say nothing.

now a 16 year old that looks to hire someone to kill mom is not a child with impulse issues imo. this child would have had time to reflect yet they did not change their behavior towards a more positive path. we must take the over all behavior into account. 2 cases for example. josh phillips. looked at web sites using search words " teen, cheerleader, rape." had broke into a neighbor girls house and stole pictures of her. invited the neighbors little sister into his house. rape could not be proven due to the fact her body was hidden under his water bed for a week. her underwear and shorts were pulled down to her ankles and her shirt was above her breast. she had been beaten with a bat and stabbed repeatedly. she was 8. he is in prison for life and i agree with that verdict. then look at cody posey. he killed his whole family after years of abuse and he is in a treatment center. i agree with that verdict. same age and both commited murder. after looking at both cases i see 2 cases where i feel justice was found. maybe ted bundy could have been helped if some one had spotted the danger in him at 7, or 9. i feel in cases like his the sexual and violent aspects of his mind have become so twisted together by the teen years there is no hope to cure and little hope to control.

these are ofcourse the worst cases and not cases of kids playing doctor and police are called. to me 1 of the largest problems was highlighted in the posey case. all to often when we find a child before it is too late to save them and their future victims we do not have good treatment avalible.

 

[Truly]

I know he suffered watching mom having sex for money. I know he had been taken from her in another state by CPS but later returned. Never could get a straight answer or his file from Tennessee. I would bet he was molested by a john of hers or was sold to one for sex. I know he tortured small animals, set fires before and was a bedwetter, while in this state. After the fire, his mother left the state with him, and DYFS couldn't "justify the expense" of tracking them down.

See, I think we need to track down and throw the book at the people who treat children like this. Selling or buying or attacking or using a child for sex should carry the harshest penalty of any crime. Yet what usually happens? The john and the hooker and the rapist walk away with a small slap on the wrist, and people act as if it's just some cute little scandal or some perfectly fine business arrangement...and society ends up with kids who are out of their minds with pain and anger because they were taught not to trust, they were taught not to love.

 

[dasaky]

I know this is probably a dumb question, but why is this child's name in the paper. I thought in juvie cases, it was not released.

 

[joe jones]

http://www.kypost.com/content/wcposhared/story.aspx?content_id=3e7a34fe-1e6a-4264-9243-b3025fac36aa

Judge declared him not competent to stand trial,

 

[sherri79]

I know this is probably a dumb question, but why is this child's name in the paper. I thought in juvie cases, it was not released.

maybe.... his name was released to the press as a survivor of the fire before the fire was found to be arson. just taking a wild guess btw.