OH OH - Jacob Limberios, 19, Sandusky County, 2 March 2012

[rachelle]

http://www.thenews-messenger.com/ar...AG-Gun-defect-could-caused-Limberios-shooting

Also, wasn't it Will who said he had picked up the gun from the ottoman and looked at it for a bit then put it back down? And wasn't yet another account of the accident that they all kinda passed it around again and were looking at it and handling it? By both of these accounts someone else could have had possession of the gun when it accidentally went off, correct? I think that's exactly what happened and why Brittany and Will failed that test.

And maybe I missed this in the interviews that are posted on the family's site, but I don't recall anyone ever saying Jake was itching his head with the gun.

 

[al66pine]

sorry.

 

[al66pine]

[FONT=cd9800338d999ea007e57538#901300]From Oh. AG's statemt at 11/20 presser [/FONT]
[FONT=cd9800338d999ea007e57538#901300]http://www.thenews-messenger.com/ar...ould-caused-Limberios-shooting?nclick_check=1 pub 11/21[/FONT]
[FONT=cd9800338d999ea007e57538#901300](appears to be official AG stmt to media, same as in the other link I used upthread):[/FONT]

[FONT=cd9800338d999ea007e57538#901300]" On Jake’s cellular telephone, investigators recovered two pertinent videos that Kayleigh [/FONT][FONT=cd9800338d999ea007e57538#901300]confirmed were recorded on February 29, 2012 -- [/FONT][FONT=cd9800338d999ea007e57538#901300]two days prior to [/FONT][FONT=cd9800338d999ea007e57538#901300]Jake’s death. [/FONT]The videos depict Jake and Kayleigh firing a revolver. Kayleigh said that the weapon they fired in these videos was the same gun involved in Jake’s death. Further, she stated that the location of the videos was in the rear of the Limberios residence. The holster for the gun appears to be tucked into the front of Jake’s waistband. Kayleigh told investigators that they were firing the weapon off into the distance, without a specific target or backstop. In the video of Jake firing the gun, BCI investigators observed that Jake used his right hand to hold the gun, firing one shot using both hands and two shots using only his right hand. They also observed that Jake allows his finger to remain on the trigger at all times. Further, his thumb remained on the hammer, even while pointed at the ground, with Jake cocking the gun into single-action mode while raising it to point down-range." BBM UBM

Despite Jake's father stating that Jakes followed safe gun practices (on DrP show, no link),
this video, 2 days before his death, shows he did not always do that.
This video shows Jake's extremely unsafe gun practices.

If he did not handle guns safely on the video, whether sober or drunk/drinking that day,
seems likely he'd ignore safety issues when under the influence (not saying that he drank that party night, IDK).

This video shows it's possible/likely he was fooling around w the gun and shot himself accidentally that night, imo.
Makes it more likely to me, than if a vid 2 days before his death showed him handling a gun safely.
But does not preclude one of the other kids having shot him.

JM2cts and I could be wrong. :seeya:

 

[al66pine]

Does this gun malfunction stmt make sense to .357 users?

From http://www.thenews-messenger.com/article/20131120/NEWS01/311200007/Ohio-AG-Gun-defect-could-caused-Limberios-shooting?nclick_check=1 pub Nov 21
in the scribd section of article. More about the BCI testing there too.

“CONCLUSION
“The single most significant new revelation about this case that BCI investigators discovered involves the malfunctioning hammer block safety on the firearm that killed Jake Limberios. BCI agents requested additional, specific lab testing by BCI’s Firearms Section -- testing that had not been requested during previous investigations. This additional testing found that 30% of the time in lab tests, the gun fired without the trigger being touched or pulled. If Jake were holding the gun, as all three witnesses report, and the hammer was never locked back into single action, it is conceivable that the spring-loaded hammer could have been pulled only partially back and released, and the weapon could have fired -- without the trigger being touched and contrary to the intended safety design of the gun.”

Thx in adv.

 

[CHERIE.T]

from http://www.norwalkreflector.com/article/3814751
transcript of Ohio AG's report at 11/20 presser, describing some limitations the BCI & AG investigation faced =

“The lack of sufficient documentation of the first autopsy of Jacob Limberios.
The Limberios family retained forensic expert Dr. Cyril Wecht to conduct this autopsy.
For it to be substantially useful to future investigations, a sufficient number of photographs
would need to have been taken for review by future forensic experts.
Dr. Wecht reportedly did not take photographs.”

“6 BCI investigators, however, interviewed an employee of the funeral home present in the room during the autopsy who reported seeing photographs being taken. If such photographs exist, BCI investigators never received them….”

“Dr. Wecht did take three photos of a bone he removed from Jacob Limberios’ body subsequent to conducting the autopsy.”
BBM SBM

So…
Someone told BCI Wecht took no photos during the autopsy. Who would that be other than Wecht or Wecht’s employeee?
A funeral home employee above said photos were taken during the autopsy.
And Wecht did take three photos after the autopsy. Did BCI have those to review?

Questions:
Did Wecht did not take photos during autopsy?
If not, why not?
Did Wecht take photos during autopsy?
If so, why did he not provide (all of) them to BCI?

Either way -
- if Wecht/employee did not take pix, or
- if Wecht/employee took pix but did not provide them to BCI (even if they were subject to attorney-client privilege
because parents’ atty arranged for Wecht to conduct autopsy)
IMO, it seems if pix somehow indicated the death was an accident, whether by Jake or byother kids,
they would have provided to BCI, if they had the pix,
IMO, if pix were not taken, seems to deviate autopsy SOP.
IMO, it seems detrimental to the parents’ position that he never would have committed suicide.

JM2cts and I could be wrong.:seeya:

Wecht knows proper protocol for preforming autopsies.....so where are the photos? Doesn't Wecht usually video tape his autopsies?Imo there is no reason to lie about the pictures. Unless the pictures point to some other cause of death besides suicide. My guess is that this young man's death investigation and initial autopsy were botched. imoo

 

[CHERIE.T]

from http://www.norwalkreflector.com/article/3814751
transcript of Ohio AG's report at 11/20 presser, describing some limitations the BCI & AG investigation faced =

“Before the party began, Evan, William, and Brittany first gathered at Teri’s Tavern in Bay View, OH. They then traveled in a van that William drove to Brittany’s residence before leaving to pick up Jake from his home. Jake entered the van, carrying an open and partially full case of Bud Light bottles. The four then traveled to Castalia Market, … Evan remained in the van, while the other three went into the convenience store, where William purchased vodka, Bloody Mary mix, cigarettes, Combos snacks, and another case of Bud Light bottles. From there, the four traveled to Brittany’s residence, where they began to drink their alcohol.” BBM SBM

“4 This evidence included the following: a Bud Light box labeled “On Floor,” containing 17 empty bottles and four full bottles; a Bud Light box labeled “In Fridge,” containing 20 full bottles.” BBM

How much was consumed collectively by all four?
So 17 empties in one case on floor? Maybe includes as part of those, the 4 empties which would have come from in fridge case that still had 20 fulls. Perhaps some of those empties were consumed by others before the party? Maybe some of the empties they consumed that night were not placed in the cases (placed in big garbage can in the garage)?
I missed any ref to the amount of vodka purchased or consumed.

Forgot where I read or heard someone say that 19 y/o Jake did not drink alcohol that night.
Puzzling that he would bring to the party a partial case of beer and not drink at all,
esp. in that apparently he would not drive himself home.

Questions
Did Jake drink that night at the party? Before the party? Both?
Did Jake not drink at the party or before?

If he drank -
- say 1-2 beers, he may not have been impaired.
- say 3 or 3+ beers, his senses may have been dulled, so that -
- he was not cognitively alert re safe firearms handling SOP (letting ppl drinking handle his gun w ammo in it, etc).
- his hands, esp fingertips, were not sensitive about how he was handling gun.
- his impulse control not to hurt himself may have been impaired.

If he did not drink,
- why does it seem he ignored safe firearms handling SOP (letting ppl drinking handle his gun w. ammo in it, etc).

Who sits in a house, in the same room, w 3 ppl who have been drinking and lets them pass around his gun w ammo in it?
Esp. when that person has never met 2 of the 3 others?

JM2cts and I could be wrong. :seeya:

Excellent questions. Imo it's fairly odd for a non-drinker to pass a gun around .....a loaded gun.... to drinking strangers. The non drinker likely knows the dangers. Sorry but it can be just that simple.
I watched the videos again.... sure sounds like lying to me.

 

[CHERIE.T]

http://www.thenews-messenger.com/ar...AG-Gun-defect-could-caused-Limberios-shooting

Also, wasn't it Will who said he had picked up the gun from the ottoman and looked at it for a bit then put it back down? And wasn't yet another account of the accident that they all kinda passed it around again and were looking at it and handling it? By both of these accounts someone else could have had possession of the gun when it accidentally went off, correct? I think that's exactly what happened and why Brittany and Will failed that test.

And maybe I missed this in the interviews that are posted on the family's site, but I don't recall anyone ever saying Jake was itching his head with the gun.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[La Louve]

Both Evan and Will were over 21 when Jake was shot. I think part of what they were covering up was the fact that they knowingly provided alcohol to minors. If Will is indeed the person who bought the alcohol at the convenience store, he could be found liable of contributing to Jake's death.

I have a sick feeling that the original "investigation" may have been influenced by some relationship between Will and/or Evan and someone in the sheriff's department.

 

[rachelle]

Both Evan and Will were over 21 when Jake was shot. I think part of what they were covering up was the fact that they knowingly provided alcohol to minors. If Will is indeed the person who bought the alcohol at the convenience store, he could be found liable of contributing to Jake's death.

I have a sick feeling that the original "investigation" may have been influenced by some relationship between Will and/or Evan and someone in the sheriff's department.

I agree. Funny how Will and Brittany have been on tv and all over FB, but Evan has not made a peep, and I believe it was stated on the JFJ&E FB page (take it w grain of salt cuz I think it was in the comments maybe) that if called to testify at the GJ he was going to plead the 5th.

 

[La Louve]

I agree. Funny how Will and Brittany have been on tv and all over FB, but Evan has not made a peep, and I believe it was stated on the JFJ&E FB page (take it w grain of salt cuz I think it was in the comments maybe) that if called to testify at the GJ he was going to plead the 5th.

Yes and it was completely glossed over on Dr. Phil that Will purchased alcohol at the convenience store for them all.

In fact didn't Brittany say on the show that she had three beers and Jake had none?

 

[al66pine]

Yes and it was completely glossed over on Dr. Phil that Will purchased alcohol at the convenience store for them all.

In fact didn't Brittany say on the show that she had three beers and Jake had none?

^^^Yes, I recall Britanny said that on DrP show.^^^

I do not recall either of the 2 kids on the show mentioning vodka & Bloody Mary mix, the AG's rpt refers to.

IIRC, the AG's report didn't refer to -
-any statement the other 3 kids made about Jake & alcohol
(despite Brittany's stmt on DrP) or
- Jake's BAC level from tox texts, which leads me back to wondering...

....what, if anything, tox tests would show on an
autopsy conducted after embalming & several months of interment.

 

[Karmady]

Thanks for bumping alpine. Trying to catch up and can never find this thread. Must remember...in the news...in the news

 

[CHERIE.T]

After reading the entire thread and the great linked articles, Ive come to the conclusion that Jacob was shot by accident by one of his friends or himself. Sorry but I am split 50/50 about this. If LE would have taken gunshot residue test just maybe things would be clearer. BUT all of them shot the gun.:banghead:

 

[Karmady]

from http://www.norwalkreflector.com/article/3814751
transcript of Ohio AG's report at 11/20 presser, describing some limitations the BCI & AG investigation faced =

“Jake’s parents indicated that he had a history of some psychological issues and was under the care of a psychiatrist,
having been prescribed medication for depression and sleeping difficulties.
He was also reportedly prescribed another medication -- a prescription which he would not fill or take.
It is unknown what this medication was, or its purpose."

"Despite multiple requests, BCI investigators have not received the medical records from Jake’s psychiatrist.”

Does anyone know if psychiatrist could have been ordered to provide records?
- To parents in their lawsuit against coroner to change manner of death from suicide?

If, in the course of parents' lawsuit, they were able to subpoena the psychiatrist’s records and did not and
then did not provide them to BCI, imo, it seems detrimental to the parents’ position contending that he never would have committed suicide.

JM2cts and I could be wrong. :seeya:

I wonder if the medication issue is part of the reason the ruling was suicide right at first. If Jake was willing to take meds for sleep and depression, but not some other med, what would that med be and what was it for? To my knowledge, the most common type of med that people with mental health issues are unwilling to take are antipsychotics and those are often used to treat schizophrenia. Jake was the right age for that dx, as well. Does anyone know what he was dx'd with, if anything? Not saying he was schizophrenic or that he killed himself. Just saying that might explain my the parents are protecting his medical records and what make the powers that be jump to suicide. jmo

 

[La Louve]

IIRC on the Dr Phil show his parents stated that the depression issue was in the past. It sounded like it was a non-issue. And the way the shooting was "investigated" at the time, I doubt if anyone went to the trouble to look into any meds Jake may have been taking.

From what I have read about Coroner Wulkie, he seems to be of the opinion that anyone that shoots themselves, accidentally or not, has "committed suicide".

 

[rachelle]

Defect in Limberios' revolver was limited to his gun, AG's office says

http://www.thenews-messenger.com/ar...ios-revolver-limited-his-gun-AG-s-office-says

 

[al66pine]

IIRC on the Dr Phil show his parents stated that the depression issue was in the past. It sounded like it was a non-issue. ...

BBM SBM for focus

Not clear to me if, at time of shooting, Jake was still taking meds and getting treatment.
Without psychiatric medical records, we don't know as a fact depression was in the past or a non-issue.

Furthermore, even --
---if we got the records and
---if he was no longer taking meds or getting other treatment for it,
he still may have been depressed.
Maybe no health ins or ability to pay or something else?

Consider the source of depression being 'in the past.'
In how many cases do parents say -
Yes, it's entirely conceivable to me that my son (child or adult) would commit suicide?

A few factors
-19 y/o, living at home w parents, but talking about going off to college
-3 y/o child (presumably ordered or trying to support)
-best friends off in college
-lost job (at Best Buy?)

Not saying these would be reason for suicide.

Could those factors contribute to depression, treated or untreated? Possibly.

Not saying he committed suicide.
Just saying parents' 'in the past' statement,without med records, is not convincing to me.
And even med records showing no meds or other treatment does not necessarily mean, imo, he was not depressed.

JM2cts and I could be wrong.


So sad for his parents, his little girl, and her mother and others.

 

[al66pine]

And the way the shooting was "investigated" at the time, I doubt if anyone went to the trouble to look into any meds Jake may have been taking. ...

La Louve,

Yes, I think many, most, maybe virtually all W/S following the case, agree, the initial investigation was an inadequate investigation at best.

Maybe LE did not initially verify meds or no meds, other treatment or not.

Have you read the AG's investgation report?
The pdf pages are avail at several links.

But the OH BCI & AG's investigation was very thorough, imo, but faced w. some unable-to-replicate scene elements, they were not able to able to get a bullet trajectory, or to do autopsy soon after death, in fact, OH autopsy was the one second done, etc.


Still puzzled about psychiatric records not being available to BCI & AG.
Why?
Could parents have subpoenaed them for their suit against coroner, but did not?
Or parents' got psych records but did not provide to BCI & AG?
Or did BCI & AG not have have authority to subpoena?
Or something else?

 

[La Louve]

Have you read the AG's investgation report?
The pdf pages are avail at several links.

respectfully snipped by me

Yes, I did.

 

[Icechick]

If I'm reading on the FB page and website correctly, there is/was a Grand Jury hearing on this case this week?

https://m.facebook.com/JusticeforJakeandElla?__user=1443231962

I think either Will or Evan accidentally did it. Very curious as to why Evan was not on the show. All MOO

I wondered that too! Guilty up to their eyeballs...if not the act, then covering up for someone who did it. And that girl needs a good thump on the head. What an entitled spoiled brat. Good thing it wasn't me or id have given her something to indeed be whining about.
Cyril W. is as good as it gets for the truth. I hope KarMa prevails!
all MOO:moo::moo::moo::moo::moo: